In The Destruction Of Baal Dante Sees himself In The Emperors Throneroom.

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**Apple Peel**

Didn’t that article have a point where it said some of the things on the list may or may not be true. We are talking about the 500 stores, 500 facts article?

**Patriarch Phyrx**

Perpetuals can lose their Perpetual-ness. Happens in the HH series, no reason why Emps wasn’t so badly mauled by Chaos that he is no longer a Perpetual.

**Formosa**

Nope, that's a complete charade and has been revealed by the Black Library to have been a ploy. Malcador is a powerful warlord from Terra's past guilty of horrendous warcrimes, a perpetual, and is so psychically potent that he was able to humble Horus before the heresy and nearly choke him to death.

Nothing you say there shows him to be a perpetual, malcador is old, very old, his body is old too, but his mind is still very powerful, having a weak body but powerful mind is a sci fi trope as old as ... well sci fi, him being able to "unmake" horus does not show he is a perpetual, nor does being several thousand years old, there are several instances in 40k of the warp, psyhic powers or other means extending a normal humans life, psychic ability is just one of these.

Now to be clear I do not believe malcador is a perpetual based on current fluff, this can of course change in future novels.

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**Wyzilla**

Formosa wrote:
]Nope, that's a complete charade and has been revealed by the Black Library to have been a ploy. Malcador is a powerful warlord from Terra's past guilty of horrendous warcrimes, a perpetual, and is so psychically potent that he was able to humble Horus before the heresy and nearly choke him to death.

Nothing you say there shows him to be a perpetual, malcador is old, very old, his body is old too, but his mind is still very powerful, having a weak body but powerful mind is a sci fi trope as old as ... well sci fi, him being able to "unmake" horus does not show he is a perpetual, nor does being several thousand years old, there are several instances in 40k of the warp, psyhic powers or other means extending a normal humans life, psychic ability is just one of these.

Now to be clear I do not believe malcador is a perpetual based on current fluff, this can of course change in future novels.

Did you pay any attention to what I stated? What you think is obviously incorrect seeing as how GW disagrees with it.

‘I wanted to apologise, Lord Sigillite,’ the primarch replied. ‘Also, to warn you.’

Malcador narrowed his eyes. ‘Though I know you far better, that could almost sound like a threat, coming from anyone else.’

The Khan bowed low, bringing him almost down to the Sigillite’s own eye level.

‘Forgive me, for nothing could be further from my intentions. Things have soured between us in the years since you humbled my brother, and I would tell you that I wish to make amends. There can be no secrets, now.’

‘Unnecessary,’ said Malcador, gesturing for him to rise. ‘Your presence here is all I need, to know that you are one of the most loyal. You remain here to defend the Throne even though it is not in your nature, nor that of your Legion.’

‘And yet, there is more I can do. Again, I say that I must warn you.’

‘Warn me of what?’

The Khan’s eyes glinted with the flickering light of the staff. ‘I know who you are, Lord Sigillite. Who you were.’

Malcador grew very still. The soft murmur of the night wind was the only sound up there, on the wall.

He felt his ancient power prickling in the back of his mind.

‘What do you mean, Jaghatai? What do you think you know?’

‘I know, because Horus knows. You left your mark upon his pride, as surely as he left his upon the Council table – and my brother is nothing if not patient and resourceful in the execution of his vengeances.’

The Sigillite closed his eyes. He had already seen where this was going.

‘In his libraries on the flagship,’ the Khan continued, ‘he found you. For a long time, it was his private obsession, and I dare say he has uncovered even more in all the years since. At first I believe he feared the influence you might have over our father, and the Imperium, and the creation of the Council of Terra only confirmed his suspicions. Though, of course, when he realised he could no longer simply decry your efforts as unjust and self-interested, he delved deeper, into the past you have deliberately hidden.’

He took a breath.

‘He told me. He told me that you are Brahm al-Khadour, last of the Sigillites. The cursed wanderer. The perpetual. Horus knows what you have done, the atrocities that you and your secret order heaped upon mankind during Old Night. There are some legends that even you could not erase, some texts that the last and greatest technomage of Terra could not burn. Have no doubt, my brother will seek to unmask you, before the end. He will reveal to all that the Imperial Truth was founded on lies from the very beginning, and that the galaxy cannot therefore be justly ruled by our father, or any who support it.’

Malcador shifted his weight, his pseudo-mortal frailty all but forgotten, as he prepared himself for the possibility of combat. It had been a long time since he had faced Horus, and he did not know if he still had the psychic strength to subdue a primarch…

That frailty was nothing but a form Malcador assumed. In truth he's a potent perpetual psyker that is second only to the Emperor and possibly Magnus.

**Formosa**

"Did you pay any attention to what I stated? What you think is obviously incorrect seeing as how GW disagrees with it."

Did you pay attention to what I said?

clearly not

"this can of course change in future novels."

and to the quote

" He told me that you are Brahm al-Khadour, last of the Sigillites. The cursed wanderer. The perpetual."

All titles and do not show he is a perpetual, just that someone has noticed how long he has lived and given him a title, still does not confirm him to be undying.

"Malcador shifted his weight, his pseudo-mortal frailty all but forgotten, as he prepared himself for the possibility of combat. It had been a long time since he had faced Horus, and he did not know if he still had the psychic strength to subdue a primarch"

Shows that he has aged as he is more "frail" than he was and possibly lacks the "psychic strength" to subdue a primarch.

**pm713**

Being referred to as a perpetual is different to being a Perpetual. I can call Asurmen the perpetual warrior or Bjorn a perpetual watcher.
It's not great evidence for Malcador being perpetual especially considering the fact he died.

**Captyn_Bob**

Oh, I totally missed it, but if the Khan thinks Mal is a Perpetual, he probably is. The Khan is a smart guy

**Platuan4th**

Formosa wrote:
NM found it, from warhammer community so not canon, unless its in a book or codex its not part of the setting.

There's no such thing as "canon" in 40K. GW themselves admitted such years ago.

As well, where's the line? Why is one GW arm that's actually written by staff less official than another where everything is written by licensed writers? You're making false distinctions that even GW don't themselves make.

**Captyn_Bob**

I'd still be inclined to treat everything produced by the community team as non canon.
Regimental Standard is HilArious but it isn't black library material.

**Platuan4th**

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I'd still be inclined to treat everything produced by the community team as non canon.
Regimental Standard is HilArious but it isn't black library material.

But it's GW staff produced rather than contracted author produced. Most companies, that makes it more official, not less.

Just because something is Black Library doesn't make it more canon, either. Several formerly "canonical" book are now considered "apocryphal" by Black Library(see: pretty much anything by Ian Watson).

**pm713**

Platuan4th wrote:
Formosa wrote:
NM found it, from warhammer community so not canon, unless its in a book or codex its not part of the setting.

There's no such thing as "canon" in 40K. GW themselves admitted such years ago.

As well, where's the line? Why is one GW arm that's actually written by staff less official than another where everything is written by licensed writers? You're making false distinctions that even GW don't themselves make.

There is 100% canon even if GW are bad at it.

**Formosa**

Platuan4th wrote:
Formosa wrote:
NM found it, from warhammer community so not canon, unless its in a book or codex its not part of the setting.

There's no such thing as "canon" in 40K. GW themselves admitted such years ago.

As well, where's the line? Why is one GW arm that's actually written by staff less official than another where everything is written by licensed writers? You're making false distinctions that even GW don't themselves make.

Yes there is, GW is just bad at it, and tries to hand wave away inconsistencies as "there is no canon" is their version of "a wizard did it"

And if something is to be considered part of the fluff, it needs to be put into the fluff, show dont tell is a good way of putting it, something GW ... well pretty much all media these days suck at

**Azreal13**

Platuan4th wrote:
Why is one GW arm that's actually written by staff less official than another where everything is written by licensed writers?

I'd imagine for similar reasons that answers about rules coming from Codexes, Rulebooks, FAQs etc are considered valid but answers from some spod who manages the FB page aren't?

**Platuan4th**

Azreal13 wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
Why is one GW arm that's actually written by staff less official than another where everything is written by licensed writers?

I'd imagine for similar reasons that answers about rules coming from Codexes, Rulebooks, FAQs etc are considered valid but answers from some spod who manages the FB page aren't?

Yeah, no. There's a big difference between "GW studio vs other GW employee" and "GW employees working in the same building as the studio vs guys who aren't employees working from a loose set of rules provided to them".

Things like Star Wars had/have a strict guideline for what was where in canonical hierarchy and things like novels from authors outside the official company/source were always rated below official things. It's only in GW that I've seen people claim that contracted authors are somehow MORE official than actual official company things, especially in a setting where even the studio canonically states that the entire setting is written to have an unreliable narrator.

**Formosa**

Platuan4th wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
Why is one GW arm that's actually written by staff less official than another where everything is written by licensed writers?

I'd imagine for similar reasons that answers about rules coming from Codexes, Rulebooks, FAQs etc are considered valid but answers from some spod who manages the FB page aren't?

Yeah, no. There's a big difference between "GW studio vs other GW employee" and "GW employees working in the same building as the studio vs guys who aren't employees working from a loose set of rules provided to them".

Things like Star Wars had/have a strict guideline for what was where in canonical hierarchy and things like novels from authors outside the official company/source were always rated below official things. It's only in GW that I've seen people claim that contracted authors are somehow MORE official than actual official company things, especially in a setting where even the studio canonically states that the entire setting is written to have an unreliable narrator.

Black library has had the writers in for big planning meetings for the horus heresy several times in order to plan out the books and maintain consistency, they can say whatever they like but the series is very consistent with a couple of big gafs (mostly timeline errors), so they can say whatever they like, their actions show otherwise.

**tneva82**

Azreal13 wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
Why is one GW arm that's actually written by staff less official than another where everything is written by licensed writers?

I'd imagine for similar reasons that answers about rules coming from Codexes, Rulebooks, FAQs etc are considered valid but answers from some spod who manages the FB page aren't?

Funny you mention fb since fb is also source for official rule messages

**Formosa**

tneva82 wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
Why is one GW arm that's actually written by staff less official than another where everything is written by licensed writers?

I'd imagine for similar reasons that answers about rules coming from Codexes, Rulebooks, FAQs etc are considered valid but answers from some spod who manages the FB page aren't?

Funny you mention fb since fb is also source for official rule messages

That happened once as far as I remember and has never happened since again as far as I’ve seen.

**Andykp**

canon1
/ˈkanən/Submit
noun
noun: canon; plural noun: canons; noun: canon of the Mass
1.
a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged.
"the appointment violated the canons of fair play and equal opportunity"
synonyms: principle, rule, law, tenet, precept, formula; More
standard, convention, norm, pattern, model, exemplar;
criterion, measure, yardstick, benchmark, test
"the appointment violated the canons of fair play and equal opportunity"
a Church decree or law.
"a set of ecclesiastical canons"
synonyms: law, decree, edict, statute, dictate, dictum, ordinance; More
rule, ruling, regulation;
decretal
"a set of ecclesiastical canons"
2.
a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine.
"the biblical canon"
the works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine.
"the Shakespeare canon"
synonyms: (list of) works, writings, oeuvre
"the Shakespeare canon"
the list of works considered to be permanently established as being of the highest quality.
"Hopkins was firmly established in the canon of English poetry"
3.
(in the Roman Catholic Church) the part of the Mass containing the words of consecration.
4.
MUSIC
a piece in which the same melody is begun in different parts successively, so that the imitations overlap.
"the very simple rhythmic structure of this double canon"

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The definition of canon means really anything published by gw is canon. So rogue trader and all the other good stuff is as “canon” as the black library stuff.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also back on topic I don’t get why Dante seeing the emps in a dream or whatever without his sword means horus is going to kill the emperor and he will resurrect. Where’s that leap come from?

If he does day then the star child will be reborn and the sensei will rule along side him saving humanity once and for all!