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Just make guardsmen 7ppm or 4ppm with T2 6+ save. Marines could be 11-12ppm maybe, not less, and saving 15-30 points in a 2000 points list doesn't make any real difference.

Making T3 5+ as squishy as they were, or with an appropriate cost, balanced to the new AP and CPs generation systems, is a different matter though. Would it fix marines issue? Not completely but it would increase the balance between the current broken ultra cheap troops and the more expensive but also lackluster ones.

Gretchins are T2 no save, no chapter bonus, only one specific stratagem allowed on them, and they can't fire 4 shots for free. They definitely worth half the cost of a guardsmen instead of being just -1ppm. But at 2ppm any ork player would spam 100+ gretchins making them broken, at 3ppm they are fairly balanced, it's boyz that are probably a bit overcosted as 7ppm. I'd even advocate for 4ppm gretchins if guardsmen were 7ppm, which is where they should be.

If you make guard 4.5 to 5 points, you can leave marines alone. 4.5 feels more right to me personally, and GW has done half points before.

 Mmmpi wrote:
If you make guard 4.5 to 5 points, you can leave marines alone. 4.5 feels more right to me personally, and GW has done half points before.

Yeah, but then they'd still be playable.

Can't be having that.

True, I forgot how many marine players insist on butchering everything in their opponent's army, despite running face first in to hundreds of enemies, with just five guys.

One thing about units and costs. Units don't exist as elements in a vacuum. They are part of an army. As such their effectiveness cannot just be based on their raw stars but must be partially based on what they can do as part of an army.

For example, necron immortals. If carrying Tesla weapons then as written their hits explode on a 6. Put a lord near them and their hits explode twice as often. The possibility of them getting exploding hits more than just 1 time in 6 needs to be considered in their cost.

So, I donct run an ork army, have no real desire to. But you have to look at this cost of grots as more than their basic abilities but how they work in an army. Do they buff if they have an ork nearby? Do they screen units? Part of their value.

A lot of things need to be considered in points cost. Not just raw stars and basic numbers.

As for fixing Marines, honestly we hear about their awesome geneseed implants, their awesome power armor, their awesome conditioning, etc. They do seem... underwhelming wen one looks at them in modern terms. Maybe all marines should have a version of FNP to reflect their armor and biological modifications and conditioning. Sure it would be a major change but in my opinion it would just set the feel of marines right in relation to their back story. I don't expect it...

 vipoid wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
If you make guard 4.5 to 5 points, you can leave marines alone. 4.5 feels more right to me personally, and GW has done half points before.

Yeah, but then they'd still be playable.

Can't be having that.

At this point, it is getting to where i don't want to see ig again for a long time.

Martel732 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
If you make guard 4.5 to 5 points, you can leave marines alone. 4.5 feels more right to me personally, and GW has done half points before.

Yeah, but then they'd still be playable.

Can't be having that.

At this point, it is getting to where i don't want to see ig again for a long time.

We all want something....

At this point I'm settling, because I don't think GW is ever making my list good again. I'm just wishing for some variety in my losses.

Martel732 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
If you make guard 4.5 to 5 points, you can leave marines alone. 4.5 feels more right to me personally, and GW has done half points before.

Yeah, but then they'd still be playable.

Can't be having that.

At this point, it is getting to where i don't want to see ig again for a long time.

If someone has an army that you don't like, it's on you to say no, not them.

Lol what? Tourney format doesnt work that way.

Martel732 wrote:
Lol what? Tourney format doesnt work that way.

Given your obvious and rather extreme hatred of IG, maybe tournaments aren't for you then?

Why would you say that? Turning down games because I'm tired of a faction is lame.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
One thing about units and costs. Units don't exist as elements in a vacuum. They are part of an army. As such their effectiveness cannot just be based on their raw stars but must be partially based on what they can do as part of an army.

Whilst I partially agree, I should point out that this can also cause problems.

For example, let's take Eldar, which have access to some of the best Psychic powers in the game.

Do you cost Eldar units based on the idea that they'll have those buffs? If so, then you're making the buff units mandatory just to make Eldar units worth their cost. If not, then Eldar units will be OP once you add in those buffs.

And then you've got the additional problem of allies. It seems many people assume that DE units will also have access to Doom, and so want their units priced accordingly, even though the buff isn't even in the same codex.

Now, you could instead make the buffing unit pay all costs associated with its buff. But you'll still run into problems. To go back to the above example, how do you calculate the point value of Doom? Especially since it will not only depend on the size and makeup of your own army but also your opponent's army. Casting Doom on an Imperial Knight is going to be a lot more valuable than casting it on a ~70pt infantry squad. Or even just auras. How do you price an aura without knowing which units it will affect and how many of them?

In short, there are a lot of issues associated with trying to price units based on either the buffs they provide or the buffs they potentially have access to.

I think if you were going to do it that way, you'd have to start making buffs *much* more specific.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

For example, necron immortals. If carrying Tesla weapons then as written their hits explode on a 6. Put a lord near them and their hits explode twice as often. The possibility of them getting exploding hits more than just 1 time in 6 needs to be considered in their cost.

Except that, as above, there's no easy way to do this. If you assume the buff, then you make them overcosted if they can't/don't get it.

And bear in mind that there's a good chance many Immortal units in a given army won't have that buff.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

As for fixing Marines, honestly we hear about their awesome geneseed implants, their awesome power armor, their awesome conditioning, etc. They do seem... underwhelming wen one looks at them in modern terms. Maybe all marines should have a version of FNP to reflect their armor and biological modifications and conditioning. Sure it would be a major change but in my opinion it would just set the feel of marines right in relation to their back story. I don't expect it...

I think the real issue is that there are so many different factions and subfactions that Marines are basically cemented in place. There's almost nowhere to go in terms of design space without treading on the toes of other models.

e.g. you suggest giving them FNP, but aren't you treading on the toes of Plague Marines by doing this? Are Plague Marines going to have something else to represent their Nurgle-based toughness?

You could give them 2 wounds but then you're treading on the toes of Primaris Marines (which, IMO, should have either not been made in the first place or else should just have been updated Marine models).

You could give their weapons -1AP, but then you're treading on the toes of Necrons - who got that to replace their lost Gauss rule.

You could make them cheaper, but things are already getting really cramped at that point level. And, more importantly, it's going to make them feel even less like elite soldiers.


Something I will say - and I think this is important for more than just Marines - is that I think the game has a real problem with so many infantry units being forced to take basic weapons that are absolute garbage. I think this is a consequence of the game becoming less about infantry and more about being Mechwarrior. So that the basic troops (and, hell, even many elite troops) end up bringing anti-infantry weapons to a giant-mecha fight, with no option to even swap out more than 1-2 of them.

Martel732 wrote:
Why would you say that? Turning down games because I'm tired of a faction is lame.

Well, you feel worked up about it enough to quit the game. So yeah, turning down games might actually be a good option for you.

If you want 2 damage bolters play sisters. Obviously broken stratagem.

Been speaking with sisters players about the codex and they're laughing at how overpowered their army will be. Not much can handle a giant wave of 4++ bodies occupying the table.

Sisters also get the nice benefit of being S4 in melee now, and getting multiple attacks as well as fight twice. Marines will charge sisters and lose the fight. If anyone played marines.

 Marmatag wrote:
If you want 2 damage bolters play sisters. Obviously broken stratagem.

Been speaking with sisters players about the codex and they're laughing at how overpowered their army will be. Not much can handle a giant wave of 4++ bodies occupying the table.

Sisters also get the nice benefit of being S4 in melee now, and getting multiple attacks as well as fight twice. Marines will charge sisters and lose the fight. If anyone played marines.

I'd warn them not to laugh too obviously, or it risks getting needed into oblivion for the real codex!

 Marmatag wrote:

Not much can handle a giant wave of 4++ bodies occupying the table.

Except Guardsmen in every thread complaining about guardsmen.

I think I'm in the boat for just making marines 1-3 points cheaper. Only because I assume Primaris will be dropped to 15 and a 2 point difference would kill normal marines. I am against marines being cheaper but because that's not why I picked them as my first/favorite army.

I don't see the holy bolter getting any rules or any other normal marine unit for that matter.

But regardless I have 300+ days to continue painting models before I have to worry about a shake up again.

Something I will say - and I think this is important for more than just Marines - is that I think the game has a real problem with so many infantry units being forced to take basic weapons that are absolute garbage. I think this is a consequence of the game becoming less about infantry and more about being Mechwarrior. So that the basic troops (and, hell, even many elite troops) end up bringing anti-infantry weapons to a giant-mecha fight, with no option to even swap out more than 1-2 of them.

Basically this once they introduced matched play allowing super heavies everything went out the window.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Something I will say - and I think this is important for more than just Marines - is that I think the game has a real problem with so many infantry units being forced to take basic weapons that are absolute garbage. I think this is a consequence of the game becoming less about infantry and more about being Mechwarrior. So that the basic troops (and, hell, even many elite troops) end up bringing anti-infantry weapons to a giant-mecha fight, with no option to even swap out more than 1-2 of them.

Basically this once they introduced matched play allowing super heavies everything went out the window.

I was kinda silly and anticipated mass infintry so I designed my entire marines army around anti infintry. They're mostly plasma and heavy bolters... I didn't bring lascannons on my razors or anything. It suited mpthe loremof my anti tyranid army though... However, little did i know that anti infintry was baaaaaad and being pure marines with no soup and one of the worse keywords made it even worse.... i still like my army though.

 Stux wrote:
I'd warn them not to laugh too obviously, or it risks getting needed into oblivion for the real codex!

Actual sisters players have yet to find the humour in the chapter approved codex.

A.T. wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I'd warn them not to laugh too obviously, or it risks getting needed into oblivion for the real codex!

Actual sisters players have yet to find the humour in the chapter approved codex.

Sorry, i'm speaking about people who have large collections, and have for some time, not people who are aspiring flavor of the month runners.

 Marmatag wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I'd warn them not to laugh too obviously, or it risks getting needed into oblivion for the real codex!

Actual sisters players have yet to find the humour in the chapter approved codex.

Sorry, i'm speaking about people who have large collections, and have for some time, not people who are aspiring flavor of the month runners.

Yeah. They are, from all I've seen, none-too-happy with the beta 'Dex.

It could've been worse, definitely, but it could've been WAY better.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I'd warn them not to laugh too obviously, or it risks getting needed into oblivion for the real codex!

Actual sisters players have yet to find the humour in the chapter approved codex.

Sorry, i'm speaking about people who have large collections, and have for some time, not people who are aspiring flavor of the month runners.

Yeah. They are, from all I've seen, none-too-happy with the beta 'Dex.

It could've been worse, definitely, but it could've been WAY better.

People will complain about everything, the current sisters codex is fantastic.

And they haven't even gotten their new models yet... which they will.

 Marmatag wrote:
Sorry, i'm speaking about people who have large collections, and have for some time, not people who are aspiring flavor of the month runners.

So... a couple of hundred? Albeit only 15 stormbolters.

Perhaps wait for this magical horde of sisters to actually win something before proclaiming them overpowered.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why would you say that? Turning down games because I'm tired of a faction is lame.

Well, you feel worked up about it enough to quit the game. So yeah, turning down games might actually be a good option for you.

Regular marines could have a FNP safe vs non mortal wounds. Nurgle marines could have a FNP that applies to mortal wounds.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why would you say that? Turning down games because I'm tired of a faction is lame.

Well, you feel worked up about it enough to quit the game. So yeah, turning down games might actually be a good option for you.

Regular marines could have a FNP safe vs non mortal wounds. Nurgle marines could have a FNP that applies to mortal wounds.

Plague marines do have a FNP that applies to Mortal Wounds.

Sure give marines a FNP. Just account for it in their points.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why would you say that? Turning down games because I'm tired of a faction is lame.

Well, you feel worked up about it enough to quit the game. So yeah, turning down games might actually be a good option for you.

Regular marines could have a FNP safe vs non mortal wounds. Nurgle marines could have a FNP that applies to mortal wounds.

Plague marines do have a FNP that applies to Mortal Wounds.

Sure give marines a FNP. Just account for it in their points.

Give regular Marines a limited FNP tbat failes vs mortal wounds. Nurgle and some exceptional Mari es get full FNP. Plus nurgle Mari es already get T5. That's enough advantage for being a walking sh-tbag.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
One thing about units and costs. Units don't exist as elements in a vacuum. They are part of an army. As such their effectiveness cannot just be based on their raw stars but must be partially based on what they can do as part of an army.

A lot of things need to be considered in points cost. Not just raw stars and basic numbers.

This is true but its not as mysterious as is often implied.
In your Necron example the "cost" of the Lords buff should be in his points. Same for say a Farseer's psychic powers. You then generate caps on the ability and can determine in a crude way the power/point ratio. So I think MWBD on Tesla immortals generates a 50% increase in hits rather than 25% on other targets. Whether this is overpowered can be tested. The conclusion would seem to be no. This is not surprising given Overlords are theoretically in the best circumstance acting as 75 points of Immortal shooting and he costs quite a bit more than this.

Its boring going after Guard all the time, but company commanders can arguably provide 80 points worth of (undercosted) shooting for a third of the points. Doom can theoretically buff an entire army. Hence the problem in theory and in practice.

For all that though basic Marines just need a points drop or more shots/attacks for their 13 points. Something like the Crimson Fist Chapter tactic being a baseline ability might help too. Ap-1 doesnt do much. 2 damage is already far too common.

Marines just need to be chee-eeper!