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I know you can use the Wargear Options of index entries where they differ to the codex.

I've ran into incompatibility problems where the baseline equipment options between codex and index options vary, which by implication means some of the wargear options for the index are still unable to be applied to the codex data slate.

For example, the codex Deffkoptas are equipped with a twin big shoota, slugga and spinnin' blades. The index wargear options list
"Replace kopta rokkits with kmb or twin big shoota
Take a bigbomm
Take a killsaw" (abriged)

As the deffkopta no longer had kopta rokkits by default, this seems to mean that if you wish to take the index options (bigbomm and killsaw) then you are stuck with the new default weapon of twin big shootas as the index provides no way to move away from this weapon?

Is this how things are played? Or is there accepted to be a certain fudge factor when using index options? Do you have the choice of using the index dataslste's default equipment even though it doesn't fall under the wargear options section?

I would say by strict RAW you can't take it.

You need to fulfill the requirement of swapping a weapon you don't have, which is impossible.

In most casual games you would probably be ok to 'fudge it' with your opponent's permission. For organised play you would have to ask the organiser, their interpretation is likely to vary.

 Stux wrote:
I would say by strict RAW you can't take it.

You need to fulfill the requirement of swapping a weapon you don't have, which is impossible.

Agreed. You cant replace what isnt there.

The designer commentary says that you can select wargear options from the index. The option to take a bigbomm is a completely separate option from anything the twin big shootas are involved with. The designer's commentary does not say that you must deal with all options in the index.

 doctortom wrote:
The designer commentary says that you can select wargear options from the index. The option to take a bigbomm is a completely separate option from anything the twin big shootas are involved with. The designer's commentary does not say that you must deal with all options in the index.

the point is you can either use the codex or index options. As such a big bomb deffkopta seems to be stuck with twin big shootas as the index provides no way to swap away from the big shootas.

Another problem I've seen is regular meks don't have a slugga anymore so don't have a way to swap to their index weapon options.

The Index 'options' include the default wargear - as its still optional to take it (you can opt for the default, or opt for one of the others). So you can opt for the default, then swap it out for one of the other options listed below, no?

Clever semantic finagling aside, I'm sure most opponents wouldn't mind you swapping out the default in the Codex, for an option in the Index that replaces a slightly different default selection. Or indeed using a default from the Index instead of the default from the Codex. Tournament organizers may of course vary in their opinion.

nareik wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
The designer commentary says that you can select wargear options from the index. The option to take a bigbomm is a completely separate option from anything the twin big shootas are involved with. The designer's commentary does not say that you must deal with all options in the index.

the point is you can either use the codex or index options. As such a big bomb deffkopta seems to be stuck with twin big shootas as the index provides no way to swap away from the big shootas.

Another problem I've seen is regular meks don't have a slugga anymore so don't have a way to swap to their index weapon options.

You don't "swap" a codex weapon with an index weapon.

When you take a datasheet with entries in both index and codex, you have to choose which 'Wargear' section you will use - whether from index or codex. If you choose to follow the index, you follow everything on the index datasheet with the exception of new weapons rules that may appear in the codex and the updated point cost.

This means that the unit now comes with everything it says it comes with on the index datasheet, and the standard loadout as per codex datasheet is no longer applied/valid.

You choose whether to use the codex or index weapon options. Weapon options, not wargear. That's what the flow chart says. It doesn't say you can choose to use the index default wargear options, does it?

Does anyone have proof you can use the index default gear?


It is important I find something that allows the use of the index default load outs otherwise Some weapon options sections in the indexes are incompatible in their wording when super imposed into the rest of their codex version of the data slate.

 Kcalehc wrote:
The Index 'options' include the default wargear - as its still optional to take it (you can opt for the default, or opt for one of the others). So you can opt for the default, then swap it out for one of the other options listed below, no?

Clever semantic finagling aside, I'm sure most opponents wouldn't mind you swapping out the default in the Codex, for an option in the Index that replaces a slightly different default selection. Or indeed using a default from the Index instead of the default from the Codex. Tournament organizers may of course vary in their opinion.

No, it doesn't include Default Wargear, it's only the Wargear Options potion of the datasheet. If the default loadout changes, you don't have a weapon to replace anymore. I think Haemonculus have the same deal.

You can absolutely use default weapon loadouts. It’s half the damn point.

The whole point of the Designer's Commentary is to not invalidate your Index legal models. If you're stuck with a models wargear loadout that was legal in the Index, and you came to the conclusion that it's no longer legal - you probably went wrong somewhere.
Trying to build something that's neither Index nor Codex legal, but uses both rules - now that's where it gets very iffy.

just to make sure this is understood: That's HIWPI.

nekooni wrote:
The whole point of the Designer's Commentary is to not invalidate your Index legal models. If you're stuck with a models wargear loadout that was legal in the Index, and you came to the conclusion that it's no longer legal - you probably went wrong somewhere.
Trying to build something that's neither Index nor Codex legal, but uses both rules - now that's where it gets very iffy.

just to make sure this is understood: That's HIWPI.

I agree. That's also how I would play it. If you could build the model using the Index rules, but can no longer build the model using the Codex rules, the intent seems to be that you should be able to use the model.

Absolutely. Saying otherwise is silly, as it’s the entire point of the Flowchart. Again, sometimes GW wording doesn’t hold up to the kind of linguistic scrutiny some attempt to hold it to.

People are conflating the generic term option with the in game Wargear Option section of a datasheet. It's the latter that is being used.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
People are conflating the generic term option with the in game Wargear Option section of a datasheet. It's the latter that is being used.

Which in no way can be proven unambiguously; so we have to fall back on parsing of English in general (where have I heard that before?). Wargear options including all options on the datasheet, defaults included.

 Kcalehc wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
People are conflating the generic term option with the in game Wargear Option section of a datasheet. It's the latter that is being used.

Which in no way can be proven unambiguously; so we have to fall back on parsing of English in general (where have I heard that before?). Wargear options including all options on the datasheet, defaults included.

A default loadout is a) Not an option via English because it is not optional and b) not in the Wargear Options section of the datasheet.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
People are conflating the generic term option with the in game Wargear Option section of a datasheet. It's the latter that is being used.

Which in no way can be proven unambiguously; so we have to fall back on parsing of English in general (where have I heard that before?). Wargear options including all options on the datasheet, defaults included.

A default loadout is a) Not an option via English because it is not optional and b) not in the Wargear Options section of the datasheet.

Agreed. As written it doesn't tell us how to implement a default that allows it.

You essentially have to houserule to get the loadout now, this has simply fallen through the cracks of the rules on how to use Index options for a Codex datasheet.

Strict RAW is you can't take it.

Friendly games it probably won't be a problem, just check with your opponent and pay the appropriate points.

Competitive play, ask the organiser.

That's it.

I've come to the conclusion that this problem is so widely fudged that if you went to a competitive event that allowed index options the. Don't even ask; just fudge it there to as everyone else there will be fudging it too without even asking.

nareik wrote:
I've come to the conclusion that this problem is so widely fudged that if you went to a competitive event that allowed index options the. Don't even ask; just fudge it there to as everyone else there will be fudging it too without even asking.

Depends how seriously you're taking the tournament. It's not worth risking it if you are in with a shot of placing. You could potentially have tournament points docked etc.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
People are conflating the generic term option with the in game Wargear Option section of a datasheet. It's the latter that is being used.

Which in no way can be proven unambiguously; so we have to fall back on parsing of English in general (where have I heard that before?). Wargear options including all options on the datasheet, defaults included.

A default loadout is a) Not an option via English because it is not optional and b) not in the Wargear Options section of the datasheet.

You have the option to not replace the default, thereby making the default an option. We’ve been around this merry-go-round before. ;-)