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It's a shame it isn't a PEW vs pewpewpew decision for PL, but I lump it in the same category as 'free optional upgrades' that exist under the points system, eg attack squigs, tank buster bombs for every tenth boy, etc.

Bharring wrote:"Maybe, I may not provide a challenging game, but I also try not to be cruel, whiny, or obnoxious when I do."
When I started playing, two of the regulars who were always up for a game were very different: one always lost, but was never fun to play. The other always won, but was always fun to play.

Winning/losing isn't what makes a game fun/unfun for some people.

Which is why I just said, "challenging," rather than being a push over or a dominator. Some like a challenging game, some don't. My actual tabletop time is incredibly low due to building, painting, and crap personal networking, so I can't even guarantee an interesting one.

Of course, right now I couldn't provide a 40K game with any of my models since they've been long sold off due to GW FAQ decisions. I'm interested in restarting because of the absolutely huge Warhammer metas I have locally, and it's easier to build and paint Warhammer than Warmachine.

Its funny that I am subscribed to several GW store facebook groups (cities within a couple hours from me) and all of them have open 40k days and they all advertise power level, and I never see any rage in the comments, only constructive and encouraging posts for the most part.

auticus wrote:
Its funny that I am subscribed to several GW store facebook groups (cities within a couple hours from me) and all of them have open 40k days and they all advertise power level, and I never see any rage in the comments, only constructive and encouraging posts for the most part.

Are you honestly surprised that a store's official facebook page only has positive things about that store's activities?

 Peregrine wrote:

auticus wrote:
Its funny that I am subscribed to several GW store facebook groups (cities within a couple hours from me) and all of them have open 40k days and they all advertise power level, and I never see any rage in the comments, only constructive and encouraging posts for the most part.

Are you honestly surprised that a store's official facebook page only has positive things about that store's activities?

Ah yes, because the idea that there may be large groups of people out there who genuinely like PL and manage to use them just fine can't possibly be true, can it? /s

 Peregrine wrote:

auticus wrote:
Its funny that I am subscribed to several GW store facebook groups (cities within a couple hours from me) and all of them have open 40k days and they all advertise power level, and I never see any rage in the comments, only constructive and encouraging posts for the most part.

Are you honestly surprised that a store's official facebook page only has positive things about that store's activities?

In my experience, most of the people who subscribe to the media outlets of local stores are the regulars who are nearly always in there. They're not being forced to say good things, they mean what they say.

But that ruins your view that no real people like PL, so it must be fake, right?

How the hell is this thread still going?

Anyways, I find that GW stores tend to prefer PL to Points because they generally have more newbies and/or "casual" players (as in "not concerned with building a great list") than most FLGS which is where you tend to find the more competitive people because the FLGS is often where you find the monthly ITC tournaments. I know that seems to be the case in my area. The Warhammer store is MUCH more laid back and relaxed than the independent game store(s), and it's rare to see one of the competitive players go there; it's usually the newbies, collector and painter types (who go to show off their latest masterpiece), and the ones who just want a friendly low-key game once in a while in a clean and relaxed atmosphere versus what is often a dirtier, older game store that has a lot of stereotypical neckbeards.

So it comes as no surprise that a GW store tends to have more laid back people who aren't going to rant about how PL is terrible, but really just want a place to hang out sometimes, buy things, show off their cool models and occasionally get a game in.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
In my experience, most of the people who subscribe to the media outlets of local stores are the regulars who are nearly always in there. They're not being forced to say good things, they mean what they say.

But that ruins your view that no real people like PL, so it must be fake, right?

I'm not sure how you think you're disagreeing with me here. The fact that a store's official page has the regulars is exactly my point! In the US, where independent game stores are all over the place, GW stores are a low-tier option. Compared to a decent independent store they have higher prices, much less table space, a much smaller range of products, and are open for much more limited hours. So, aside from the local kids (whose opinions on game design don't count), the majority of people at a GW store are going to be the hardcore GW loyalists and white knights who love everything GW does. If the local store is doing PL then PL is the best thing ever and the store is 110% right. Meanwhile the people with a more critical view of GW and 40k and more willingness to point out their flaws aren't going to sacrifice their game experience for the privilege of playing at the Official GW Store. They're going to go to one of the independent stores and probably never even look at the GW store's page.

In short, even if the GW store is not actively deleting criticism the filtering aspect of being a GW store is going to result in a strong pro-GW bias.

It's a fairly simple concept - Power Level isn't designed for competitive play*, only to help players get a rough approximation for a battle. It's the only way I and my local group play, as it's all narrative campaigns and such.

* neither are points, really; a lascannon is nearly useless if you are fighting a horde of 1000 gaunts; and it is invaluable when fighting an army of tanks. Perhaps in the future when army lists are app-only and the the points values can change appropriately depending on what opponent you are fighting...

Peregrine wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
In my experience, most of the people who subscribe to the media outlets of local stores are the regulars who are nearly always in there. They're not being forced to say good things, they mean what they say.

But that ruins your view that no real people like PL, so it must be fake, right?

I'm not sure how you think you're disagreeing with me here. The fact that a store's official page has the regulars is exactly my point! In the US, where independent game stores are all over the place, GW stores are a low-tier option.

I'm from the UK. Clearly, your opinions may apply to the US, but in the UK, it appears to be quite different.
I'm not saying your observations are invalid or false, but they're US-centric. Mine are UK-centric, and in the UK, it's not uncommon for people to prefer their local GW than an independent retailer. What I'm saying is that, yes, in your experience, the people who prefer going to GW might be minority, but in the UK, it's the other way around, and supporting the store on social media is often done by "normal" people.

Compared to a decent independent store they have higher prices, much less table space, a much smaller range of products, and are open for much more limited hours.

I live near Warhammer World. Table space, range of products, and opening/closing hours aren't really an issue. Plus, a bar in the next room.
As I said again, that's in your experience, but mine is very different. Both are valid.

So, aside from the local kids (whose opinions on game design don't count),

Why not? That's gatekeeping.
I don't care how old, young, new or experienced they are, if someone feels like they enjoy something or don't enjoy it, they have every right to feel that way. You can't turn around and say "well, you're young, so I'm going to dismiss that you like this".

Besides, in my experience, it was often the kids who were the most competitive and meta-chasing. The older players were far more up for casual gaming, and more of a chat while pushing models around.

the majority of people at a GW store are going to be the hardcore GW loyalists and white knights who love everything GW does.

Probably because they prefer GW to everyone else? Sorry, is that something they aren't supposed to do?

You're using "white knight" as someone who simply prefers GW over other people, simply because you can't understand how someone could prefer GW over someone else. The fact you feel you have to brand them with a semi-insulting label is proof of this.

If the local store is doing PL then PL is the best thing ever and the store is 110% right. Meanwhile the people with a more critical view of GW and 40k and more willingness to point out their flaws aren't going to sacrifice their game experience for the privilege of playing at the Official GW Store.

Critical doesn't mean better, especially if your idea of "critique" is "my way is the best way ever and you're stupid if you can't see that".

You can critique PL as much as you like, Peregrine, but you can't argue with the fact that some people simply prefer it for their own reasons.

They're going to go to one of the independent stores and probably never even look at the GW store's page.

Good for them. However, I think that you're being incredibly dismissive and narrow-minded by assuming that the people who go to GW stores are people who only go their because they care about "privilege", and that they only play PL because they're sheeple who aren't willing to point out flaws they simply might not believe in.

Some people simply prefer playing PL. What about that is so hard to understand? Why do you feel this compulsive need to brand them some kind of "White Knight" or "proving their casualness" when they just prefer a different game system to you?

In short, even if the GW store is not actively deleting criticism the filtering aspect of being a GW store is going to result in a strong pro-GW bias.

And are you saying that their opinions still aren't valid? They go a different store than you - boo hoo. They're still people with opinions, likes, dislikes, and I think it's far more likely that, instead of GW brainwashing all these people into liking PL (because they're all White Knights who do anything GW tell them), they like going to GW because they enjoy what GW do.

You go to your FLGS because you prefer it - how is that any different? You value certain things from your hobby experience, good for you. Some people value other things, and for them, GW stores fulfill that. What's so hard about people preferring something else that you feel you need to brand them a "White Knight"?

Are you honestly surprised that a store's official facebook page only has positive things about that store's activities?

There are approximately three places on the internet I ever read deep anger against PL.

Here from a couple posters.
BOLS from a couple posters.
One of the primary 40k facebook groups, of which a handful of tournament posters will rally against it.

The thread that binds all three are:

The number of people that hate PL is a very small number.
The people that hate PL also tend to be primarily competitive in nature and usually tournament-oriented.

Take that for what you will.