New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**wuestenfux**

WisdomLS wrote:
Alot of people seem to be misinterpreting the rule.

To be clear, Rapid fire weapons usually get to fire twice when within half their range.

The new rule means that marines with rapid fire weapons get to fire them twice in the following situations: They are within half range / they did not move / they are a terminator, bike, centurion or vehicle.

These do not stack with each other or the normal rapid fire rules, unless using a stratagem or other special rule a bolter will only ever fire 2 shots, a storm bolter 4 shots and a hurrican bolter 12 shots.

This rule just give the marines more opportunity to rapid fire, generally giving them all extra shot between 12"-24" inches that they usually only get within 12".

It is a buff to marines anti-horde firepower at medium range, makes no change to their firepower at close range and in my opinion is a small but welcome buff that won't really alter the game or meta much.

Many thanks for the clarification.
So Marines at 12''-24'' range are buffed as are Termies, Bikers and others.

**Karol**

Excommunicatus wrote:
torblind wrote:
unrealistic setting still requires plausible game mechanics..

Like psychic powers and beings made of magic and cobwebs?

I would say 1/10 of slavic magic lore works like that. Rest is sacrifice, often human and name magic. Seems very realistic to me.

**Not Online!!!**

Karol wrote:
Excommunicatus wrote:
torblind wrote:
unrealistic setting still requires plausible game mechanics..

Like psychic powers and beings made of magic and cobwebs?

I would say 1/10 of slavic magic lore works like that. Rest is sacrifice, often human and name magic. Seems very realistic to me.

Considering there exist daemons that literally enforce daemonic contracts in 40k i wouldn't be surprised if they stole more real life lore and slapped it into 40k

**Karol**

Formosa wrote:
Chapter approved needs to be totally ditched at a source for rules changes and cost changes, keep it for adding new content but that's it, any and all rules changes and cost changes get moved to each armies relevent FAQ/Errata, paying for fixes to a poorly thought out and maintained system is just pure stupudity, if people insist on paying for patches then they are part of the problem.

I agree. I also think that the design team knows very well what they are doing. They are cutting up the rules and spreading the updates, and keeping some stuff bad, just so people buy more stuff. Making people buy stuff, because you make great and fun stuff, is nice. Making stuff bad, just so people get traped and have to buy more, is EA tier of doing stuff.

**Blackie**

My termies wouldn't benefit from the rule as SW ones are purely melee oriented. I don't play primaris so no intercessors.

However the crusader now looks way more powerful as it can evaporate a full unsupported mob of 30 orks with a single round of shooting from 24''. 5 WG bikers also fire their 40 shots at 24'' which is a huge bonus. Other WG wouldn't benefit that much since jump packs dudes or embarked ones will likely fire within rapid fire range anyway. Rhinos are also buffed with their 8 shots from distance.

Grey hunters will benefit very little from the rule but still something.

**Banville**

Blackie wrote:
My termies wouldn't benefit from the rule as SW ones are purely melee oriented. I don't play primaris so no intercessors.

However the crusader now looks way more powerful as it can evaporate a full unsupported mob of 30 orks with a single round of shooting from 24''. 5 WG bikers also fire their 40 shots at 24'' which is a huge bonus. Other WG wouldn't benefit that much since jump packs dudes or embarked ones will likely fire within rapid fire range anyway. Rhinos are also buffed with their 8 shots from distance.

Grey hunters will benefit very little from the rule but still something.

How would a single Crusader kill 30 orks?

**Spoletta**

I'm liking this change.

A squad of 5 tacs with stormbolter and heavy bolter now wins a shoot out against 20 guards out of cover and against 30 if both are in cover.

5 terminators can take on 50 guards easily.

Does this mean that terminators and tacs are now good and guards bad? No, but cinematically it feels right.

**Eihnlazer**

Banville wrote:
Blackie wrote:
My termies wouldn't benefit from the rule as SW ones are purely melee oriented. I don't play primaris so no intercessors.

However the crusader now looks way more powerful as it can evaporate a full unsupported mob of 30 orks with a single round of shooting from 24''. 5 WG bikers also fire their 40 shots at 24'' which is a huge bonus. Other WG wouldn't benefit that much since jump packs dudes or embarked ones will likely fire within rapid fire range anyway. Rhinos are also buffed with their 8 shots from distance.

Grey hunters will benefit very little from the rule but still something.

How would a single Crusader kill 30 orks?

28 bolter shots and 12 assault cannon shots go a good ways for that. Fragstorm launchers and a multi-melta help out.

**Banville**

Eihnlazer wrote:
Banville wrote:
Blackie wrote:
My termies wouldn't benefit from the rule as SW ones are purely melee oriented. I don't play primaris so no intercessors.

However the crusader now looks way more powerful as it can evaporate a full unsupported mob of 30 orks with a single round of shooting from 24''. 5 WG bikers also fire their 40 shots at 24'' which is a huge bonus. Other WG wouldn't benefit that much since jump packs dudes or embarked ones will likely fire within rapid fire range anyway. Rhinos are also buffed with their 8 shots from distance.

Grey hunters will benefit very little from the rule but still something.

How would a single Crusader kill 30 orks?

28 bolter shots and 12 assault cannon shots go a good ways for that. Fragstorm launchers and a multi-melta help out.

Let's say 45 shots, for convenience. 30 hit. That's without rolling to wound or the Orks saving any.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
This rule is a welcome boost but you're not going to have marines hosing squads off the table.

**Delvarus Centurion**

ThatMG wrote:
I don't really like this beta rule, even if it might be fun to play in a casual one off game.
The reasons why I think is the whole
"ignore what rapid fire does"
Your creating a game-state where rules exist for rapid fire but are not used and also not applying to all instances of the "bolt" weapon.
I rather have a Bolt Type with it's own rules than this..., then all bolt weapons are FAQ to the bolt type.

Not really, they can't just change whole dynamics of the game for an army, all they are doing is adding a new rule here, that being 'our rapid fire ability is better than other armies' its the only way they'll bring balance is by tweaking the game like this. The only unfair thing about this is that they aren't doing it for other armies, which they should. But cut the bull, if your army got a new rule you would be in favour of these changes. I mean if they did these small changes for every army, bringing all armies up to par at a small incremental level we will see balance or as close as we can get to balance as one army is always going to do great against one and gak against another, we'll never have true balance but I'll settle for this.

Plus this is a fluffy rule, bolters are supposed to be the best tech the Mechanicum can give them, they should reflect that, I mean the Emperor did invent them.

**the_scotsman**

I think my only problem is that I wish this issue had been fixed with defense over offense. You know you're in a problematic game state where "well, what if 100 guardsmen charge 20" across the table at you and you need to kill them in ONE TURN" is a legitimate concern that HAS AN ANSWER

I just wish they'd dial back the murderiness of 8th ed overall. The game is basically a 2-turn affair at this point.

**Delvarus Centurion**

the_scotsman wrote:
I think my only problem is that I wish this issue had been fixed with defense over offense. You know you're in a problematic game state where "well, what if 100 guardsmen charge 20" across the table at you and you need to kill them in ONE TURN" is a legitimate concern that HAS AN ANSWER

I just wish they'd dial back the murderiness of 8th ed overall. The game is basically a 2-turn affair at this point.

I completely agree we need defense far more than output, an extra wound or something along those lines.

**the_scotsman**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I think my only problem is that I wish this issue had been fixed with defense over offense. You know you're in a problematic game state where "well, what if 100 guardsmen charge 20" across the table at you and you need to kill them in ONE TURN" is a legitimate concern that HAS AN ANSWER

I just wish they'd dial back the murderiness of 8th ed overall. The game is basically a 2-turn affair at this point.

I completely agree we need defense far more than output, an extra wound or something along those lines.

Lol. People would still whinge about an extra wound, because "muh everything is D2 in the whooole gaaaame" - you already hear this from people who like the primaris boys.

All I know is that when I play my Thousand Sons, they feel about what Space Marines should be - they die to heavy guns, because lets be honest a marine is a medium infantryman in this game now, but when small arms come their way they feel like walking tanks.

**Crimson**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I completely agree we need defense far more than output, an extra wound or something along those lines.

And this is why Primaris marines exists. I think that after this and all other buffs they have gotten, the standard bolt rifle Intercessors are in a pretty good place. Now they just need to look into underperforming Primaris options like all other bolt rifle variants and the poor Reivers.

It still bugs me though, how insanely much better DW marines are than the vanilla ones. They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.

**Sterling191**

Crimson wrote:
They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.

You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?

**Lord Clinto**

WisdomLS wrote:
Alot of people seem to be misinterpreting the rule.

To be clear, Rapid fire weapons usually get to fire twice when within half their range.

The new rule means that marines with rapid fire weapons get to fire them twice in the following situations: They are within half range / they did not move / they are a terminator, bike, centurion or vehicle.

These do not stack with each other or the normal rapid fire rules, unless using a stratagem or other special rule a bolter will only ever fire 2 shots, a storm bolter 4 shots and a hurrican bolter 12 shots.

This rule just give the marines more opportunity to rapid fire, generally giving them all extra shot between 12"-24" inches that they usually only get within 12".

It is a buff to marines anti-horde firepower at medium range, makes no change to their firepower at close range and in my opinion is a small but welcome buff that won't really alter the game or meta much.

So, just to be clear this new rule doesn't compliment and buff Rapid Fire 'bolt' weapons...it basically just extends the range that a SM/CSM can use the Rapid Fire function (when one of the three conditions is met) when firing 'bolt' weapons?

**Sterling191**

Lord Clinto wrote:

So, just to be clear this new rule doesn't compliment Rapid Fire 'bolt' weapons...it basically just extends the range that a SM/CSM can use Rapid Fire (when one of the three conditions is met) 'bolt' weapons?

Correct. Bolters dont magically become Storm Bolters and Storm Bolters dont magically become Hurricane Bolters-ish when the carrying model stands still.

**Delvarus Centurion**

Crimson wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I completely agree we need defense far more than output, an extra wound or something along those lines.

And this is why Primaris marines exists. I think that after this and all other buffs they have gotten, the standard bolt rifle Intercessors are in a pretty good place. Now they just need to look into underperforming Primaris options like all other bolt rifle variants and the poor Reivers.

It still bugs me though, how insanely much better DW marines are than the vanilla ones. They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.

Yeah but if you use normal marines with them, they are pretty much useless I find unless you are buffing them or kitting them out with stormshields etc. and you also find that only your Primaris last. Terminators are good options from normal marines I find but I'm focusing my army to be Primaris, but your right 40k armies just need tweaks until we see some sort of balance.

**Crimson**

Sterling191 wrote:

You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?

Yes. Not enough more though. SIA for intercessors for example is one point per model, wounding on 2+ alone would be worth way more than that.

**Creeping Dementia**

Sterling191 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.

You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?

And the fact that Veteran squads, the place where you see most of the Deathwatch bikes and Terminators, don't actually have the Bike or Terminator keywords. So the buff won't actually apply to them. It will only apply to the Elite or Fast Attack versions, which are far less common in Deathwatch lists.
Deathwatch got much less of a boost with this than seen on the surface.

**Crimson**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Yeah but if you use normal marines with them, they are pretty much useless I find unless you are buffing them or kitting them out with stormshields etc. and you also find that only your Primaris last. Terminators are good options from normal marines I find but I'm focusing my army to be Primaris, but your right 40k armies just need tweaks until we see some sort of balance.

I'm pretty sure focusing your army to be Primaris is exactly what GW wants you to do.

**BaconCatBug**

Creeping Dementia wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.

You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?

And the fact that Veteran squads, the place where you see most of the Deathwatch bikes and Terminators, don't actually have the Bike or Terminator keywords. So the buff won't actually apply to them. It will only apply to the Elite or Fast Attack versions, which are far less common in Deathwatch lists.
Deathwatch got much less of a boost with this than seen on the surface.

Oh wow, that's hilarious. Even if you Combat Squad them to isolate the Terminators they still don't benefit.

**Daedalus81**

JohnnyHell wrote:

Way to move the goalposts. This rule is on WHC. Others won’t be. No-one can predict the future and say all WD rules will be reprinted online. We know that meatier stuff like Crimson Fists isn’t online. But a Beta rule they want feedback from everyone on? Makes sense to post it online.

Literally all the Beta rules have bee on the FAQs. This would have been no different. Just because they decide to punch something out early as a marketing exercise doesn't mean anything at all. In fact you're taking the exception to the rule and pretending it will be the rule - and that'd absurd.

**grouchoben**

wuestenfux wrote:
I figured that a Serpent (with shield) getting targeted by 10 bolter Marines with 40 shots will inflict just 2 wounds on average. Still a laugh.

10 intercessor vets using the strat to go rapid fire 2, with cap & lt support, do 6 damage, or 4.54 against -1. Not earth shatteringly good, but still more respectable than a twin lascannon.

**Galef**

BoomWolf wrote:
Galef wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I'd like a heavy bolter version, mostly because I love nothing better than kitting all my long fangs out will heavy bolters, they just look so cool.
You wouldn't need a separate rule for HBs. Just add a caveat to Bolter Discipline that allows ASTARTES to treat HBs as RF2 (b/c RF3 might be a bit much with all the rule combine)
That's 4 shots if Stationary or 4 shots at 18" with no -1 to hit.
Heck even if you had to move and weren't within half range, 2 shots that hit on 3+ is about the same as 3 shots at 4+, but you got to move

Done

-

How about we simplify things and just turn heavy bolters into RF2 weapons without the need for a special rule?
I mean, would it break any other HB user? is anyone even TAKING HBs these days anyway unless on a unit they otherwise want and are forced to?
All the benefits of your idea, without adding yet another caveat that changes things at random.

(I've said this change would be good before 8th even dropped, but with the new context its even more relevant)

Yeah, I suggested this months ago too, but some posters felt that it would indeed mess up Guard units that can have HBs. I disagreed, but that was another thread.

I just figured since Bolter Discipline is a Beta Rule that calls out Bolter weapons JUST for Astartes, it'd be a good opportunity to add just 1 sentence to that rule allowing Astates to treat HBs as RF2 and Twin HBs as RF4. That way HB are better in general AND get to benefit from Bolter Discipline.
This would also add even more anti-horde for them.

-

**Slayer-Fan123**

grouchoben wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
I figured that a Serpent (with shield) getting targeted by 10 bolter Marines with 40 shots will inflict just 2 wounds on average. Still a laugh.

10 intercessor vets using the strat to go rapid fire 2, with cap & lt support, do 6 damage, or 4.54 against -1. Not earth shatteringly good, but still more respectable than a twin lascannon.

You used 3CP at minimum to accomplish that. Hardly more respectable than Lascannons.

**Galef**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
grouchoben wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
I figured that a Serpent (with shield) getting targeted by 10 bolter Marines with 40 shots will inflict just 2 wounds on average. Still a laugh.

10 intercessor vets using the strat to go rapid fire 2, with cap & lt support, do 6 damage, or 4.54 against -1. Not earth shatteringly good, but still more respectable than a twin lascannon.

You used 3CP at minimum to accomplish that. Hardly more respectable than Lascannons.

I certainly agree. As an Eldar player I am not all that concerned about 10 Intercessors + Charactrers and CPs hurting my Serpents. But a few Twin Lascannons make me sweet a little.
Sepent shield and Alaitoc are great, but when those hits get through, they matter. And if you are bleeding CPs to take out a Serpent instead of mowing down other, more ideal targets, that works in my favor.

Marines have great anti-tank options. But those options need to be cheaper and more accessible i.e. Meltas and MMs should be cheaper that Plasma guns and Lascannons

-

**PiñaColada**

Sure 3CP is a stiff price to pay for that. But to be fair, even if this was the case presented, that's not what a group of intercessors with those buffs wants to shoot at.

Overall I think I like these changes but it will make SM of all flavours even more of a static gunline, that's just not very interesting. Edit: Other than bikes I guess, they now get some ability to kite people from a safer distance.

It's a decent enough buff but I'm wondering if it should've been that bolters get +1 to hit when they're in rapid fire range instead, then they'd move upfield a bit more.

**Nurglitch**

Heavy Bolters are already some of the most cost-efficient weapons for what they do.

**the_scotsman**

Nurglitch wrote:
Heavy Bolters are already some of the most cost-efficient weapons for what they do.

....no?

Really for the life of me I can't come up with a unit that chooses to use heavy bolters in a weapon slot where there are other options besides maybe Leman Russes, who take them because the alternative is Heavy Flamer or Plasma Cannon...who are not exactly paragons of efficiency in 8th.