New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs

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**Vaktathi**

Asherian Command wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also you cited their Bolter being better before but you never provided a source on it.
Witch Hunters Codex, page 19 describes the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter as superior to other weapons of its class.

What that actually means...who knows.

Ultimately, I don't think anything about Space Marines that would make them notably better at Bolter work than Sisters (as opposed to close combat or extended duration field operations, etc).

Probably ten thousand years of refined tradition, superhuman sight, and super human reflexes.

I mean, it's not like the SoB haven't existed in the 40k setting for many thousands of years themselves, a time period longer than current recorded human history, and it's not like Sisters dont have advanced power armor themselves with powerful optics and weapons bracing capability and the like. Space Marine supervision really only matters with the helmet off (otherwise they are both just looking through helmet sensors) and has never really factored into much else (e.g. SM's were as affected by nightfighting rules as anyone else), while reflexes matter a whole lot less for longer distance stationary shooting

My take anyway.

**Captain Joystick**

From a gameplay perspective I don't really see sisters needing it, as your bog standard battle sister is pretty good for her price as is while the space marine baseline pays more for better stats you don't want to be using anyway. A sister with a storm bolter is cheaper than a tactical with a boltgun, and surprisingly easy to field.

And to be fair, even as a Sisters player I feel like space marines should be better with the bolter - they train with it as their standard core weapon and apply superhuman faculties to git good with it, and while the De'az may be a superior model (according to a 3rd edition book loaded with self agrandizement as per the norm) the sisters are still ultimately only human, and it's not unfair to suggest their fanatical enthusiasm for three types of weapons might leave them less proficient with one of them as opposed to literal superhumans devoting the lions share of their focus to the one.

**topaxygouroun i**

Daedalus81 wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
But then a potential perils on the Rubrics will suck up your CP/Gaze for the shooting or the fight phase, which you don't know if you will need or not because they follow.

Would you risk it for 1 mortal wound on a target you don't really control with your 5" move?

It's not just smite. They easily provide breathing room by casting temporal, weaver, or sometimes firestorm.

you are giving temporal and weaver on your casters who don't get +1 to cast? You are braver than me. I never cast the big spells without +1 AND cabalistic focus.

**Daedalus81**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They're LD7 with the leader still alive.

Also I still call the morale mechanic overall meaningless. It's constantly ignored, passed, or you killed so many dudes in the first place that a single 5 point model running away is no big deal.
If morale was a more reliable mechanic, the subfactions that make use of it would be seen more. Night Lords, The Silent Shroud, Dark Brotherhood (or whatever the Covens one was), and specific Warlord Traits regarding morale would be more neat rather than bad gimmicks.

Only 6 with leader.

I think the perception of morale is poor because:

1) People take MSU marines, which means they never fail
2) There are tons of IS squads, which are LD 7 and a bit more durable
3) Cultists usually come immune in blocks of 40 (and orks in nearly immune blocks of 30)
4) An objective necessitates that you remove said unit *now* so there is no room for error on a morale roll

So #4 is the one that really only matters for this discussion, because the effort to remove Cultists as opposed to CSM is so wide that thinking 10 cultists are any sort of reliable objective holder is folly. If you were spending 150 points for objective holders why *wouldn't* you pay an extra 45 for units that did that reliably and were still threatening?

LD modifiers get skipped, because you need to be close for a lot of them and requires a level of commitment to the gimmick that most people are not comfortable with - especially in the knight meta. It's quite something to treason a warboss with the PK relic though.

**TwinPoleTheory**

Arachnofiend wrote:
I cannot stress enough how busted Rubric Marines would be at 10ppm

Agreed. However, I also disagree that this was some sort of significant buff to Rubrics. If they were treated like Terminators, sure, I might actually be tempted to put them on the table. I've wanted to put them on the table for a long time, sadly, they never make the cut.

It was a buff to SoT, primarily, a unit that I still will not field, it was an extremely minor improvement to Rubrics. I would actually call it an insignificant buff, because I want my Rubrics to be supporting my characters, who will be moving forward to get range for psychic powers, assault, etc. I simply have no interest in fielding Rubrics to have them park on the back line and sit there all game.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Mmmpi wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.

Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.

Who wear power armor, carry and use heavy weapons just the same way as space marines, have actually better bolters, and treat their weapon as an instrument of divine retribution, and it's training as a sacred task?

Black Templars? I'm pretty sure it's Black Templars, right?

**Mr Morden**

Captain Joystick wrote:
From a gameplay perspective I don't really see sisters needing it, as your bog standard battle sister is pretty good for her price as is while the space marine baseline pays more for better stats you don't want to be using anyway. A sister with a storm bolter is cheaper than a tactical with a boltgun, and surprisingly easy to field.

And to be fair, even as a Sisters player I feel like space marines should be better with the bolter - they train with it as their standard core weapon and apply superhuman faculties to git good with it, and while the De'az may be a superior model (according to a 3rd edition book loaded with self agrandizement as per the norm) the sisters are still ultimately only human, and it's not unfair to suggest their fanatical enthusiasm for three types of weapons might leave them less proficient with one of them as opposed to literal superhumans devoting the lions share of their focus to the one.

Agreed - Sisters are at the apex of human training with a better gun but Marines are as well trained plus superhuman enhancements.

BOTH armies would benefit more from their vehicles working with Chapter tactics / Convictions like very other fething army.

**Asherian Command**

Vaktathi wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also you cited their Bolter being better before but you never provided a source on it.
Witch Hunters Codex, page 19 describes the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter as superior to other weapons of its class.

What that actually means...who knows.

Ultimately, I don't think anything about Space Marines that would make them notably better at Bolter work than Sisters (as opposed to close combat or extended duration field operations, etc).

Probably ten thousand years of refined tradition, superhuman sight, and super human reflexes.
I mean, it's not like the SoB haven't existed in the 40k setting for many thousands of years themselves, a time period longer than current recorded human history, and it's not like Sisters dont have advanced power armor themselves with powerful optics and weapons bracing capability and the like. Space Marine supervision really only matters with the helmet off (otherwise they are both just looking through helmet sensors) and has never really factored into much else (e.g. SM's were as affected by nightfighting rules as anyone else), while reflexes matter a whole lot less for longer distance stationary shooting

My take anyway.

Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.

**Daedalus81**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
But then a potential perils on the Rubrics will suck up your CP/Gaze for the shooting or the fight phase, which you don't know if you will need or not because they follow.

Would you risk it for 1 mortal wound on a target you don't really control with your 5" move?

It's not just smite. They easily provide breathing room by casting temporal, weaver, or sometimes firestorm.

you are giving temporal and weaver on your casters who don't get +1 to cast? You are braver than me. I never cast the big spells without +1 AND cabalistic focus.

Temporal and weaver are usually not on the list of must cast unless something is in severe trouble. If it's part of a strategy a +1 caster will have them and rubrics will be backup to free up a bigger smite or give redundancy.

There are so many units that cast without a bonus its a given that most spells will be cast without it.

**catbarf**

Asherian Command wrote:
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.

Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.

**TwinPoleTheory**

Spoletta wrote:
Rubrics with this change have definitely rised among the best elite troops in the game. Maybe the best.

Risen, and no, they haven't. But keep selling it, I'm sure someone out there will buy it.

**Daedalus81**

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
I cannot stress enough how busted Rubric Marines would be at 10ppm

Agreed. However, I also disagree that this was some sort of significant buff to Rubrics. If they were treated like Terminators, sure, I might actually be tempted to put them on the table. I've wanted to put them on the table for a long time, sadly, they never make the cut.

It was a buff to SoT, primarily, a unit that I still will not field, it was an extremely minor improvement to Rubrics. I would actually call it an insignificant buff, because I want my Rubrics to be supporting my characters, who will be moving forward to get range for psychic powers, assault, etc. I simply have no interest in fielding Rubrics to have them park on the back line and sit there all game.

I will agree that it makes rubric slightly less appealing in comparison to scarabs, but slightly more appealing overall. I would love for them to bounce around with no penalties at all - that would get me to run 10 mans with no complaint.

Given the 6" on spell range the only reason I'm actually moving rubrics is to get to some objective or to be more effective with bolters. Since the latter is solved it's a net positive to me.

**Mr Morden**

Asherian Command wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also you cited their Bolter being better before but you never provided a source on it.
Witch Hunters Codex, page 19 describes the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter as superior to other weapons of its class.

What that actually means...who knows.

Ultimately, I don't think anything about Space Marines that would make them notably better at Bolter work than Sisters (as opposed to close combat or extended duration field operations, etc).

Probably ten thousand years of refined tradition, superhuman sight, and super human reflexes.
I mean, it's not like the SoB haven't existed in the 40k setting for many thousands of years themselves, a time period longer than current recorded human history, and it's not like Sisters dont have advanced power armor themselves with powerful optics and weapons bracing capability and the like. Space Marine supervision really only matters with the helmet off (otherwise they are both just looking through helmet sensors) and has never really factored into much else (e.g. SM's were as affected by nightfighting rules as anyone else), while reflexes matter a whole lot less for longer distance stationary shooting

My take anyway.

Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.

I sort of agree but you are definately wrong that the Sisters ARE elite and reltively rare - There are millions of them - so several for each planet, rather than just the one for marines (roughly) - Sisters (of Battle) have some of the best armour and weapons in the Imperium - on a par with the Astartes and the Sisters of Silence.

As I said before however they are not superhuman - just incredably well trained, devout warriors in superb armour and armed with equally powerful and effective weapons - they are blessed by Him and unlike the Asrates do not have a long record of failing in their Faith and duty - they are, like the Asrartes a figure of veneration and awe for the majoirty of the Imperium.

**TwinPoleTheory**

Daedalus81 wrote:
I will agree that it makes rubric slightly less appealing in comparison to scarabs, but slightly more appealing overall. I would love for them to bounce around with no penalties at all - that would get me to run 10 mans with no complaint.

Given the 6" on spell range the only reason I'm actually moving rubrics is to get to some objective or to be more effective with bolters. Since the latter is solved it's a net positive to me.

I tend to run Ahriman on a Disc and a pair of DPs pretty regularly, so movement is important to me, especially being able to provide some level of bubble wrap as they're moving up. To be fair, even if Rubrics were treated as Terminators I might not use them, since the cultists I use rarely fire, they usually just advance to provide a charge buffer for my characters.

**Asherian Command**

catbarf wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.

Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.

*ignores age* How can a hundred-year-old augmented superhuman warrior whom has been trained for decades or hundreds of years possibly be better with a weapon that has been a staple of all his kind since their conquering of terra compared to a person who is only 20 - 30 years old with no augmentations whatsoever?

I sort of agree but you are definately wrong that the Sisters ARE elite and reltively rare - There are millions of them - so several for each planet, rather than just the one for marines (roughly) - Sisters (of Battle) have some of the best armour and weapons in the Imperium - on a par with the Astartes and the Sisters of Silence.

They aren't special forces. They are ground troops with fancy armor. you won't see them fighting Heretic Astartes nearly as well as an Astartes would.

The word 'elite' really doesn't apply to the guardsmen or sisters of battle. This is also a huge problem with the lore each and every single part of the imperium is described as 'elite'. Is a Sister of Silence really more elite than a Tempestus Scion or an Inqusition Storm Trooper?

Sisters of Battle 'elite' versions are the Sisters of Silence.

Guardsmens 'elite' version are the storm troopers.

Space Marines 'elite' version are the Grey Knights bar none but the Custodes.

It would go like this:

PDF Trooper < Penal Trooper < Conscript < Guardsmen < Sister of Battle < Storm Trooper < Space Marine < Sister of Silence < Grey Knight < Custodes

**Bharring**

Finer point of lore: Marines were not involved in the conquering of Terra, that was the Sons of Thunder.

Agree with the point, though.

**generalchaos34**

I like this new rule and I really think of they dropped tactical marines to the price of scouts they would be a very competitive option for marines. This is basically a trade off better armor vs the ability to deepstrike (especially when you consider that . additionally it would cement Tacticals as the mission geared troop choice, especially when combined with armored support of rhinos/razorbacks, and leaving Intercessors to fulfill the role of tough objective holders and generalists.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:
catbarf wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.

Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.

*ignores age* How can a hundred-year-old augmented superhuman warrior whom has been trained for decades or hundreds of years possibly be better with a weapon that has been a staple of all his kind since their conquering of terra compared to a person who is only 20 - 30 years old with no augmentations whatsoever?

I sort of agree but you are definately wrong that the Sisters ARE elite and reltively rare - There are millions of them - so several for each planet, rather than just the one for marines (roughly) - Sisters (of Battle) have some of the best armour and weapons in the Imperium - on a par with the Astartes and the Sisters of Silence.

They aren't special forces. They are ground troops with fancy armor. you won't see them fighting Heretic Astartes nearly as well as an Astartes would.

The word 'elite' really doesn't apply to the guardsmen or sisters of battle. This is also a huge problem with the lore each and every single part of the imperium is described as 'elite'. Is a Sister of Silence really more elite than a Tempestus Scion or an Inqusition Storm Trooper?

Sisters of Battle 'elite' versions are the Sisters of Silence.

Guardsmens 'elite' version are the storm troopers.

Space Marines 'elite' version are the Grey Knights bar none but the Custodes.

It would go like this:

PDF Trooper < Penal Trooper < Conscript < Guardsmen < Sister of Battle < Storm Trooper < Space Marine < Sister of Silence < Grey Knight < Custodes

Sisters of Battle attend the same school and get the same training as Storm Troopers and Commissars, they just get picked up before graduation to head to the convent. Now arguably they may have vastly different combat experience but I would definitely put them in the Special Forces type category.

**Karol**

catbarf wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.

Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.

But they don't need to, by virtue of being male their eye sight helps them to focus their sight more then females. Testosterons does the changes to eye sight durning embrionic stage. Now on the other hand females see the colour spectrum better, but get distracted by other people more then men. So they should be much better spotters.

**Mr Morden**

Asherian Command wrote:
catbarf wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.

Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.

*ignores age* How can a hundred-year-old augmented superhuman warrior whom has been trained for decades or hundreds of years possibly be better with a weapon that has been a staple of all his kind since their conquering of terra compared to a person who is only 20 - 30 years old with no augmentations whatsoever?

I sort of agree but you are definately wrong that the Sisters ARE elite and reltively rare - There are millions of them - so several for each planet, rather than just the one for marines (roughly) - Sisters (of Battle) have some of the best armour and weapons in the Imperium - on a par with the Astartes and the Sisters of Silence.

They aren't special forces. They are ground troops with fancy armor. you won't see them fighting Heretic Astartes nearly as well as an Astartes would.

The word 'elite' really doesn't apply to the guardsmen or sisters of battle. This is also a huge problem with the lore each and every single part of the imperium is described as 'elite'. Is a Sister of Silence really more elite than a Tempestus Scion or an Inqusition Storm Trooper?

Sisters of Battle 'elite' versions are the Sisters of Silence.

Guardsmens 'elite' version are the storm troopers.

Space Marines 'elite' version are the Grey Knights bar none but the Custodes.

It would go like this:

PDF Trooper < Penal Trooper < Conscript < Guardsmen < Sister of Battle < Storm Trooper < Space Marine < Sister of Silence < Grey Knight < Custodes

Even in the real world there are plenty of different Elite formations - how any different special forces units do the Uk and US have alone? As a galaxy spanning organisation the Imperium does not have that many.....

er They are ELITE compared to the standard Imperial troops - which are Guard or PDF, they fight in small numbers with specialist weapons and training that is beyond that of the regular army.

Scions have the same background and training as Sisters but inferior weapons, armour and apparently divine protection. A shown in the fluff - the Scion is more akin to a standard special forces operative, the Sisters of Battle - like the Astartes are not only figures of awe and reverence but Elite troops that are able to carry out tasks that the regular military can not.

Back OT - the rule is interesting and coupled with CT on vehicles would be a needed improvement on Marines.

**Asherian Command**

Bharring wrote:
Finer point of lore: Marines were not involved in the conquering of Terra, that was the Sons of Thunder.

Agree with the point, though.

*Thunder Warriors, and actually there is some lore that points to marines having to help in the conqurering of earth, salamanders themselves faced the Iron Men in the depths of Terra.

Overall the bolter rule is good for astartes in general they needed it but I think we are still lacking the fundamental stratagems that would help define the space marines.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Vaktathi wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also you cited their Bolter being better before but you never provided a source on it.
Witch Hunters Codex, page 19 describes the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter as superior to other weapons of its class.

What that actually means...who knows.

Ultimately, I don't think anything about Space Marines that would make them notably better at Bolter work than Sisters (as opposed to close combat or extended duration field operations, etc).

The weapons of its class would be regular human sized Bolters basically.

**Apple Peel**

generalchaos34 wrote:
I like this new rule and I really think of they dropped tactical marines to the price of scouts they would be a very competitive option for marines. This is basically a trade off better armor vs the ability to deepstrike (especially when you consider that . additionally it would cement Tacticals as the mission geared troop choice, especially when combined with armored support of rhinos/razorbacks, and leaving Intercessors to fulfill the role of tough objective holders and generalists.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:
catbarf wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.

Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.

*ignores age* How can a hundred-year-old augmented superhuman warrior whom has been trained for decades or hundreds of years possibly be better with a weapon that has been a staple of all his kind since their conquering of terra compared to a person who is only 20 - 30 years old with no augmentations whatsoever?

I sort of agree but you are definately wrong that the Sisters ARE elite and reltively rare - There are millions of them - so several for each planet, rather than just the one for marines (roughly) - Sisters (of Battle) have some of the best armour and weapons in the Imperium - on a par with the Astartes and the Sisters of Silence.

They aren't special forces. They are ground troops with fancy armor. you won't see them fighting Heretic Astartes nearly as well as an Astartes would.

The word 'elite' really doesn't apply to the guardsmen or sisters of battle. This is also a huge problem with the lore each and every single part of the imperium is described as 'elite'. Is a Sister of Silence really more elite than a Tempestus Scion or an Inqusition Storm Trooper?

Sisters of Battle 'elite' versions are the Sisters of Silence.

Guardsmens 'elite' version are the storm troopers.

Space Marines 'elite' version are the Grey Knights bar none but the Custodes.

It would go like this:

PDF Trooper < Penal Trooper < Conscript < Guardsmen < Sister of Battle < Storm Trooper < Space Marine < Sister of Silence < Grey Knight < Custodes

Sisters of Battle attend the same school and get the same training as Storm Troopers and Commissars, they just get picked up before graduation to head to the convent. Now arguably they may have vastly different combat experience but I would definitely put them in the Special Forces type category.

They all start at the Schola Progenium, however, Scions are sent off to the Schola Tempestus and Commissars go to the Schola Prefectus while sister go to a convent.

**Daedalus81**

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
I will agree that it makes rubric slightly less appealing in comparison to scarabs, but slightly more appealing overall. I would love for them to bounce around with no penalties at all - that would get me to run 10 mans with no complaint.

Given the 6" on spell range the only reason I'm actually moving rubrics is to get to some objective or to be more effective with bolters. Since the latter is solved it's a net positive to me.

I tend to run Ahriman on a Disc and a pair of DPs pretty regularly, so movement is important to me, especially being able to provide some level of bubble wrap as they're moving up. To be fair, even if Rubrics were treated as Terminators I might not use them, since the cultists I use rarely fire, they usually just advance to provide a charge buffer for my characters.

Yea - understandable. I fill that role with a defiler, spawn, and sometimes rhinos.

**the_scotsman**

Karol wrote:
catbarf wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.

Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.

But they don't need to, by virtue of being male their eye sight helps them to focus their sight more then females. Testosterons does the changes to eye sight durning embrionic stage. Now on the other hand females see the colour spectrum better, but get distracted by other people more then men. So they should be much better spotters.

You're right, it's totally unrealistic for us to have female models in the game with ballistic skill better than 4+! All those guardsmen who had their eyeballs super-enhanced by testosterone durning their embrios should get BS3+ and the females should ignore cover because they see color better.

Because THAT's the level of variation between individuals that the ruleset of 40k provides for, a game where 1 point in a stat is what separates the strength a normal man from a hulking alien fungus gorilla.

**Mr Morden**

Apple Peel wrote:
generalchaos34 wrote:
I like this new rule and I really think of they dropped tactical marines to the price of scouts they would be a very competitive option for marines. This is basically a trade off better armor vs the ability to deepstrike (especially when you consider that . additionally it would cement Tacticals as the mission geared troop choice, especially when combined with armored support of rhinos/razorbacks, and leaving Intercessors to fulfill the role of tough objective holders and generalists.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:
catbarf wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome. IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant. The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.

Hence Sisters being WS4+ (lack of black carapace) and human S/T (lack of genetic modification). The modifications Astartes receive don't seem particularly special for long-range bolter fire.

*ignores age* How can a hundred-year-old augmented superhuman warrior whom has been trained for decades or hundreds of years possibly be better with a weapon that has been a staple of all his kind since their conquering of terra compared to a person who is only 20 - 30 years old with no augmentations whatsoever?

I sort of agree but you are definately wrong that the Sisters ARE elite and reltively rare - There are millions of them - so several for each planet, rather than just the one for marines (roughly) - Sisters (of Battle) have some of the best armour and weapons in the Imperium - on a par with the Astartes and the Sisters of Silence.

They aren't special forces. They are ground troops with fancy armor. you won't see them fighting Heretic Astartes nearly as well as an Astartes would.

The word 'elite' really doesn't apply to the guardsmen or sisters of battle. This is also a huge problem with the lore each and every single part of the imperium is described as 'elite'. Is a Sister of Silence really more elite than a Tempestus Scion or an Inqusition Storm Trooper?

Sisters of Battle 'elite' versions are the Sisters of Silence.

Guardsmens 'elite' version are the storm troopers.

Space Marines 'elite' version are the Grey Knights bar none but the Custodes.

It would go like this:

PDF Trooper < Penal Trooper < Conscript < Guardsmen < Sister of Battle < Storm Trooper < Space Marine < Sister of Silence < Grey Knight < Custodes

Sisters of Battle attend the same school and get the same training as Storm Troopers and Commissars, they just get picked up before graduation to head to the convent. Now arguably they may have vastly different combat experience but I would definitely put them in the Special Forces type category.

They all start at the Schola Progenium, however, Scions are sent off to the Schola Tempestus and Commissars go to the Schola Prefectus while sister go to a convent.

Only in the same way as Marines go to a monastery, all these Elite forces go through highly intensive training and indoctrination.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Also I'd argue that Scions get better weapons than Sisters due to the Hot Shot not exactly being terrible.

**Mr Morden**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also I'd argue that Scions get better weapons than Sisters due to the Hot Shot not exactly being terrible.

So by that argument Scions are more elite than both Sisters and Marines?

The various "Elite" formations of the Imperium are all intended to fulfill different roles but as they are so well trained can also be committed in other roles with a high degree of sucess.

All (except probably Custodes) are intended to have gaps in their capabilities and armaments

**Slayer-Fan123**

Mr Morden wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also I'd argue that Scions get better weapons than Sisters due to the Hot Shot not exactly being terrible.

So by that argument Scions are more elite than both Sisters and Marines?

The various "Elite" formations of the Imperium are all intended to fulfill different roles but as they are so well trained can also be committed in other roles with a high degree of sucess.

All (except probably Custodes) are intended to have gaps in their capabilities and armaments

I think rules-wise you can definitely argue that's how it appears.

**Spoletta**

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Rubrics with this change have definitely rised among the best elite troops in the game. Maybe the best.

Risen, and no, they haven't. But keep selling it, I'm sure someone out there will buy it.

Being less aggressive and trying to offer some arguments when disagreeing with someone is good etiquette.

**catbarf**

Asherian Command wrote:
*ignores age* How can a hundred-year-old augmented superhuman warrior whom has been trained for decades or hundreds of years possibly be better with a weapon that has been a staple of all his kind since their conquering of terra compared to a person who is only 20 - 30 years old with no augmentations whatsoever?

Because we're talking about a tabletop game where a centuries-old transhuman warrior has the same on-table shooting skill as a Guardsman who's survived a few battles. There's not a whole lot of design space for soft factors here, and the combination of extensive training and power armor puts Sisters closer to Marines than anything else.

Otherwise, I can easily turn this around: How can a warrior with a lifetime of combat experience, the best training the Imperium has to offer to baseline humans, and a powered exoskeleton that augments her senses and provides superhuman levels of aim assistance and recoil compensation, possibly be better with a weapon that has been the staple of all her kind since their founding thousands of years ago compared to a Guard lieutenant on his first assignment?