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Sunny Side Up wrote: Average slightly over 9 hits per phase. You can straight up double that in Shining Spears killed (150 points taken out of your opponents army right there in average to below-average rolls) and add a few points of value for the re-roll buff. And Game-Design wise, I don’t think a model should straight up make it’s points back on average rolls on deployment, before the opponent even get’s to interact with it.
So yes, killing 75 points of Spears should be what a 140-150 point model can do. Given he can quite frequently do twice that, 200 points seems a bargain for the guy.
He gets to shoot twice 1/6th of the time, and that is assuming the cult ambush table hasn't been changed.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Average slightly over 9 hits per phase. You can straight up double that in Shining Spears killed (150 points taken out of your opponents army right there in average to below-average rolls) and add a few points of value for the re-roll buff. And Game-Design wise, I don’t think a model should straight up make it’s points back on average rolls on deployment, before the opponent even get’s to interact with it.
So yes, killing 75 points of Spears should be what a 140-150 point model can do. Given he can quite frequently do twice that, 200 points seems a bargain for the guy.
He gets to shoot twice 1/6th of the time, and that is assuming the cult ambush table hasn't been changed.
We really shouldn't be assuming this. Considering it, but not assuming it.
I know that the game is all about bringing allies especially in imperium but some armies can't bring a decent screen or perhaps only a small one that can easily be taken out in the first turn.
This guy hugely punishes any character without a 2+ and elite multiwound models in general, seems to me these aren't the models that need making worse.
This guys put out alot more hurt alot more reliably than any of the assassins and with the cults look out sir rule is alot more survivable.
Armies bringing 70+ chaff infantry seems to be needed now to play the game which I'm not sure is the best way to go, there needs to be an alternative to screening to make elite armies viable, not sure what form it takes but something to help.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/26 12:45:05
WisdomLS wrote: I know that the game is all about bringing allies especially in imperium but some armies can't bring a decent screen or perhaps only a small one that can easily be taken out in the first turn.
This guy hugely punishes any character without a 2+ and elite multiwound models in general, seems to me these aren't the models that need making worse.
This guys put out alot more hurt alot more reliably than any of the assassins and with the cults look out sir rule is alot more survivable.
Armies bringing 70+ chaff infantry seems to be needed now to play the game which I'm not sure is the best way to go, there needs to be an alternative to screening to make elite armies viable, not sure what form it takes but something to help.
I can keep my Space Marine HQ safe from him with a couple of 5 man Intercessor squads. Do I need to draw a diagram here?
I would argue that Agents of Vect in and of itself is an example of power creep but to be fair I've gone off topic so back to the Kelermorph I guess.
Off topic:
Spoiler:
Agents of Vect is a fair example, I think. But then you could probably say the same of most Stratagems it's used to counter. I mean, if a Stratagem is so powerful that it's worth the opponent spending 3CPs (pre-nerf) to counter, usually refunding them their CPs in the process, then that Stratagem had to be pretty strong to begin with. Still, a counter-Stratagem is indeed very strong.
In any case, this leads to another point which is that I think the DE codex is skewed less by units and more by a couple of overly-strong subfaction rules. For example, Black Heart gives Kabal access to the aforementioned Agents of Vect, a CP-regeneration warlord trait, an artefact that confers a 'reroll 1s to wound' aura (typically used with Ravagers), and a 6+++ for vehicles. The only things that really lose out are infantry... which most tournament DE players don't want to bother with anyway. Then you've got Prophets of Flesh, which gives a 4++ to all Coven units. I can't help but wonder whether Ravagers would still be seen as overpowered if they were used in a Poison Tongue detachment or if Grotesques/Talos would be still viewed as too strong if they only had 5++ saves.
Back on topic, I'll be very interested to see how the Kelermorph is priced. On the one hand, he has weak defensive stats. But on the other hand, defensive stats rarely matter for characters (outside of, ironically, cases like the Kelermorph).
In terms of his rules, there's something that bugs me about his pistols having 2 shots each. Does any other non-artefact pistol in the game get 2 shots?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
The same is true of any faction and has absolutely no bearing on whether the faction can perform well as a mono army or not.
How many Ork tournament lists do you see using warbikers, Nobs on Bikes, Kustom Boosta Blastas, Shokkjump Dragsters, Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies, Boomdakka Snazzwagons, Megatrakk Scrapjets, Stompas, Gunwagons, Painboyz, Burna Boyz, Mek Workshops, Flash Gits? I very rarely see anything but the minimum HQs taken for any detachment excluding top performers like Tau Commanders, Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes.
How many Ork lists aren't Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz?
Dark Eldar are literally the top performing mono army. They're definitely taken and they can win.
And your entire post has no bearing on what I actually said.
I didn't say that DE couldn't be a mono army. I said that I didn't agree on them being an example of power creep.
power creep doesn't mean literally every unit is top tier, or that the weak units are stronger than other codexes best ones. It means the strongest thing the dex can do, raises the bar from where it was for everyone else. This is like saying 6th ed Tau and Eldar weren't power creep, because Kroot and Warp Spiders sucked. Drukhari are an excellent example of power creep this edition.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
In terms of his rules, there's something that bugs me about his pistols having 2 shots each. Does any other non-artefact pistol in the game get 2 shots?
Their whole profile is wrong. A stubber with the same strength and better AP than a bolter and 2 shots for a non-automatic weapon. D2 I can accept if this thing is shooting some sort of dumdum ammo, but then again, that'S what bolters are supposed to be shooting, too.
I feel the design team is having a bit too much fun with the new GSC.
I don't really see Power Creep this edition. Just more or less random spikes of power here and there. Drukhari was ages ago. Space Wolves is considered meh to terrible. Everything in between has been up and down. Not really much pattern!
Stux wrote: I don't really see Power Creep this edition. Just more or less random spikes of power here and there. Drukhari was ages ago. Space Wolves is considered meh to terrible. Everything in between has been up and down. Not really much pattern!
Yeah, agreed. GW must have their own sort of randomly generated decision table for how good or crappy a unit is. Otherwise all those fancy new ork vehicles would be incredible, along with primaris marines and so on. I realize the primaris marines are old in terms of this edition, but even when they came out they weren't particularly good. Anyway, I guess we'll see what the ambush rules are like and have more ammo to whine or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/26 13:26:45
power creep doesn't mean literally every unit is top tier, or that the weak units are stronger than other codexes best ones. It means the strongest thing the dex can do, raises the bar from where it was for everyone else.
I disagree.
For it to be power creep, the majority of units in the book would need to be stronger than previous comparable units. Not just one or two. That's the whole point of power creep. This simply isn't the case with the DE book.
DE has a few standout units, sure (or, more accurately, a couple of standout subfactions - how many tournament lists are wrecking things with Poison Tongue or Coven of Twelve?), but the vast majority of the codex is in no way ahead of the curve, with its HQs are among the worst in the game.
Their whole profile is wrong. A stubber with the same strength and better AP than a bolter and 2 shots for a non-automatic weapon. D2 I can accept if this thing is shooting some sort of dumdum ammo, but then again, that'S what bolters are supposed to be shooting, too.
Yeah, it does seem very out of whack with what the model is armed with. It seems like he's literally shooting the equivalent of 3 Relic pistols.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/26 14:51:49
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
YES, Knights are power creep without Guard supporting them and, YES, Dark Eldar are power creep without even allied Eldar.
Did you really need to ask those questions?
And yet barely any mono-lists from these armies can be found.
lol
i swear ive pulled you up before for spouting unchecked "facts" like this before
K. Show me all the knight lists making top of tournaments without IG. Mono Knights make a great showing when they dodge facing haywire. I'd hardly call rock-paper-scissor power creep.
Actually mono dark eldar and knights are two of the most common mono armies taken competitively and mono Dark Eldar are the top performing mono faction in the game as of now. Both armies can and do beat soup lists.
Are you sure. No farseer at all? They're not as common as you say.
T'au and Orks are mono and they've been taking top tables, but of course I've seen you say Orks are "middle" tier, so...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/26 15:37:02
It don't think the claim was that no seer DE are the most common DE list, but that out of all mono lists being played DE without any farseers are one of the few armies that do well.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
The same is true of any faction and has absolutely no bearing on whether the faction can perform well as a mono army or not.
How many Ork tournament lists do you see using warbikers, Nobs on Bikes, Kustom Boosta Blastas, Shokkjump Dragsters, Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies, Boomdakka Snazzwagons, Megatrakk Scrapjets, Stompas, Gunwagons, Painboyz, Burna Boyz, Mek Workshops, Flash Gits? I very rarely see anything but the minimum HQs taken for any detachment excluding top performers like Tau Commanders, Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes.
How many Ork lists aren't Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz?
Dark Eldar are literally the top performing mono army. They're definitely taken and they can win.
And your entire post has no bearing on what I actually said.
I didn't say that DE couldn't be a mono army. I said that I didn't agree on them being an example of power creep.
By that logic, 7th Edition Eldar wasn't power creep then, because they too had "bad" units.
Do you want to argue that point or concede?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I honestly don't mind that this guy is armed with 3 pistols and can target characters, but the ROF and damage are ludicrous for this type of weapon. It should be Pistol 1, S4 -1 D1. Let him get an extra shot if he hits for potential 6 total hits. Then cost him appropriately. Current case is mindnumbing.
I guess GW wanted to make sure people are going to rush out and buy the new GSC so are going balls out with obnoxious rules for them.
I think it'd be more interesting if the model simply had Autopistols, but a special rule that let them add 1 to wound rolls, AP, and damage of the weapons. This would have almost the exact same effect (I guess this rule is better against T2 and T8 enemies), but would make the guns seem less like "wait, where did he find those?".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/26 16:47:58
Galef wrote: If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
In terms of his rules, there's something that bugs me about his pistols having 2 shots each. Does any other non-artefact pistol in the game get 2 shots?
Admech have several multi-shot pistols. The infiltrators have either a 12" Pistol 5 S3 variant or and 18" Pistol 3 S4 variant. The tech priest dominus has a macrostubber which is 5 S4 shots.
So they do exist.
No idea how this guys should be pointed though, since I don't know GSC well enough.. Not even taking into account potential changes in the codex. 120ish seems fair at a glance IMO
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Ok now the rant part on the guns. Why are his pistols more deadly than master crafted marine boltguns? Why are his generic ass STUBBER pistols as deadly as marine RELIC bolters!?
Forget bolters, Deathwatch xenopurge slugs (which are basically massive stub rounds) have similar stats, 2 shots at S4 AP-1 D2... with a range of 8 inches. And DW veteran can't target characters, has only one shotgun, and the shotgun is so overpriced SM vet with one costs same as Primaris marine with bolt rifle despite across the board worse stats. Let that sink in, best special ammo DW could produce for their one of a kind, master-crafted shotguns with much bigger caliber is worse than what random mook cobbled together in a cave. Isn't it great?
If he can really shoot twice, that's 12 shots (14+, really, due to exploding rolls), equivalent of 7+ man DW squad costing minimum 140+ points while also having 50% greater range, native deep strike, good LOS, and built in buff for his LOSing unit. Wanna bet he will be like 60 points?
Tyel wrote: And thats about as good as it gets. Shoot marines? 30 points return
But if we went with that logic ton of stuff which suppose to be cool is no where near cool, often it is the opposite of cool.
Besides the point cost, and yeah at 60 he would be broken, I wonder if the GSC ambush thing is going to stay mostly the same. Maybe it got changed in to something else, and that balances out his really good shoting.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
In terms of his rules, there's something that bugs me about his pistols having 2 shots each. Does any other non-artefact pistol in the game get 2 shots?
Admech have several multi-shot pistols. The infiltrators have either a 12" Pistol 5 S3 variant or and 18" Pistol 3 S4 variant. The tech priest dominus has a macrostubber which is 5 S4 shots.
So they do exist.
No idea how this guys should be pointed though, since I don't know GSC well enough.. Not even taking into account potential changes in the codex. 120ish seems fair at a glance IMO
"120ish seems fair at a glance": Are you really thinking that a Deffkilla Wartrike (since you seem to play Orks) should cost literally the same as this guy? If it were for me I wouldn't let touch you 40k's Balance even with a 10 meters stick
Stux wrote: He's a fancy cool gunslinger so he gets fancy cool guns. It's rule of cool.
This game was never a simulation, this part doesn't bother me in the slightest.
I don't know about never - but yeah, today its clearly a game first and a simulation second.
Which to be fair has produced the best edition in a very long time, if not ever.
By that logic, 7th Edition Eldar wasn't power creep then, because they too had "bad" units.
They might have had one or two, but almost the entirety of their codex was above the power curve, relative to the older 7th edition books.
(And this is before we get into the ridiculous Formations that came into play about half-way through 7th.)
Do you want to concede this point or do you have yet more nonsense to spew?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/26 17:25:42
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Stux wrote: He's a fancy cool gunslinger so he gets fancy cool guns. It's rule of cool.
This game was never a simulation, this part doesn't bother me in the slightest.
I don't know about never - but yeah, today its clearly a game first and a simulation second.
Which to be fair has produced the best edition in a very long time, if not ever.
If it was ever trying to be a battle simulation, it was an extremely poor one.
I'll admit that 8th is more gamefied in some respects than other editions though, especially with Stratagems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/26 17:27:27
"120ish seems fair at a glance": Are you really thinking that a Deffkilla Wartrike (since you seem to play Orks) should cost literally the same as this guy? If it were for me I wouldn't let touch you 40k's Balance even with a 10 meters stick
Perhaps not, perhaps that's crazy expensive. As I said, not too familiar with the army but he does seem to bring a serious set of potential himself as a character sniper and buffs other units. At a first glance is just meant as a very rough measuring stick. I'll freely admit, I should be nowhere near whatever point cost claculation are made for GSC (not that that'd ever happen, but still). In regards to his usability compared to a deffkilla, they do have entirely different roles on the battlefield so I'm not sure how much can be drawn from that comparison. I think the deffkilla is worth his 120 points even though he never survives but such is the life an ork. The kelermorph seems much more like a hard counter to HQ heavy armies such as eldar, thousand sons etc and that kind of reliability to plink off those guys would probabaly come at a premium.
I wouldn't riot if he ended up costing 100 points, perhaps that's a lot more fair, but I don't think he's so far off the mark of 120 that's it's some sort of point costing atrocity I just commited even just suggesting it.
I think people are running wild with conjectures. The codex isn't out, we have no idea what the gunslinger costs, or whether he will ever get a chance to do what he does best.
My gut feeling is that cult ambush will have switched to a 2d6 roll, with the best and worst results being much harder to achieve. Even with his +3, I expect he'll only have a decent chance of the most horrendous ambushes instead of an almost guaranteed chance.
Though guards may sleep and ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire.
vipoid wrote: 3 pistols with 2 shots and D2 apiece that also generate extra shots each time they hit does seem a tad... excessive.
He also puts every model in the game armed with Relic pistols to shame.
Does he have three or one? The stat line is representing the entire bundle in my opinion. He has one liberator autostub that fires two or three shots since he has three arms. Or maybe I'm completely wrong, but I'm fairly convinced GW is going for the idea of one weapon in the entire profile and not a repeat of both. Afterall the profile of Calgar's gauntlets is in a single profile, not two even though he has two powerfists with guns.
vipoid wrote: 3 pistols with 2 shots and D2 apiece that also generate extra shots each time they hit does seem a tad... excessive.
He also puts every model in the game armed with Relic pistols to shame.
Does he have three or one? The stat line is representing the entire bundle in my opinion. He has one liberator autostub that fires two or three shots since he has three arms. Or maybe I'm completely wrong, but I'm fairly convinced GW is going for the idea of one weapon in the entire profile and not a repeat of both. Afterall the profile of Calgar's gauntlets is in a single profile, not two even though he has two powerfists with guns.
He explicitly has three of his pistols.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
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