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Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I just ran some numbers on the haywire weapon and I don't see it doing much to a knight. Are people counting on rolling 6's to bring it down?

As a side question, does it wound vehicles on a 4+ or only on the normal chart? If you roll a 4 and it normally wouldn't wound a target does the target still suffer a mortal wound?

Yep harlequins bikes with haywire are powerful just for that they don't need to wound per se just rolling 4+ on wound rolls triggers the effect

Often paired with a Farseer who allow wounds re-rolls (doom) all you need is go for a 4+ or 6+ if lucky to stack MW on the knights (wich he can't save at all)

Haywire is amazing against knights. Haywire blasters are d3 shots, haywire cannons are d6 shots. Strength 4, -1AP. Wounds of 4 and 5 are MW and wounds of 6 are d3 damage in addition to taking a -1 save.

A squad of 4 scourge can take 4 blasters. 3 talos can take 6 blasters. 6 Harlequins jet bikes can take 6 cannons.

Haywire ignores invulnerable saves.

You need to redo your math if you dont think that's good.

Where in the rules does it state that haywire weapons (at least harlequin ones) ignore invulnerable saves?

Against most knights a sky weaver will get 3.5 shots, if it didn't advance then it will hit 1.75 times. It wounds on a 5+ so .58 wounds, the knight saves on a 4+ total wounds suffered is .29 wounds per haywire cannon. Now out of 3.5 shots 1.75 will be 4+ so lets say that you get a 4 and a 6 that means that the knight will suffer 3 mortal wounds. Add that to the normal wounds and you get 3.29 wounds per cannon. It will take, on average 8 cannons to bring down a knight. Not bad but nothing fantastic.

If my math is wrong then please feel free to correct me.

Most people (like myself) take harliquin bikes in squads of 6. Thats 6d6 shots with haywire. Then we ally in a farseer for doom, this allows reroll failed wounds.

Doing the dirty math thats on average 21 shots, 14 hits, 10 wounds (on top of probably 12 mortal wounds), and another 5 dmg after armor save for 17 wounds total. Its incredibly expensive points wise but also incredibly effective vs any sort of vehicle they point at. Add in the bikes natural-1 to hit, another -1 to hit from a strat, and a 3++ invulnerable (thanks to anothet strat) with 3 wounds each they are not easy to kill either.

Thats only a dirty average of how many wounds i seem to do in games. Sometimes its lower (once only did 9) other times higher (got 22 a few months ago) but either way it makes an enemy knight stand up and take notice that there is a real threat on the board that needs to be delt with asap.

Are you assuming that the models are just using their normal move rather than advancing? If they advance then the 21 shots become 10 1/2 hits. How are you getting 10 wounds pre save? You only wound on a 5+ so your 14 hits should be 5-6 wounds (again pre save). On average you'll do around 9 MW. So, in total, you should be averaging around 12 wounds per volley.

I missed the re-rolling of missed wounds and to be honest don't know the math behind figuring out the effect.

Tactically would it make any difference if you took 3 units of 2 bikes? I'm a beginning CWE player and would just add a vanguard detachment of Harlies to my list.

Soaring spite harliquin "form" (or whatever you want to call them) allows all units with the fly keyword to suffer no penitly to shooting an assult weapon in a turn which they adavanced. Its the go-to harliquens force as far as i am concerned.

It also allows models that are embarked upon a transport that can fly to treat all pistol weapons they are equpped with as Assault 1 weapons during a turn in which they (or the transport they are embarked upon) advanced. It makes them faster and keeps their accuracy. Running 3 star weavers with 5 man troupe teams all with fusion pistols is a stupid scarry force (also about 200 pts a transport though).

And the rerolls to wound is very important, without it you can cut that damage output by a third to a half realistically.


Also keep in mind you don't need to wound to do the mortal wounds. A 4 to wound doesnt actually wound the knight but does cause a mortal wound. The faq even confirmed it works this way.

How about a grand master in nemesis dreadknight with 2++ save (strategem + sanctuary), with some luck i think it can take down a knight.

But, if you are 'doomed' doesnt that mean you would have to reroll all those 4s?

Doom allows rerolls of failed to wound rolls, so if you need a 5 to wound, but have a special affect on a 4, you are compelled to reroll that 4?

U02dah4 wrote:
Some armies don't beat knights by killing them they play the objectives and swarm.the board I ran 43 units at a gt earlier this year and the knight lists couldnt kill them fast enough.

I thought buffed genestealers + broodlord could maul knights pretty effectively

Shadowswords are the best.
Manticores or deathstrikes are also great particularly as the deathstrike only deals mortal wounds

 AndrewC wrote:
But, if you are 'doomed' doesnt that mean you would have to reroll all those 4s?

Doom allows rerolls of failed to wound rolls, so if you need a 5 to wound, but have a special affect on a 4, you are compelled to reroll that 4?

Doom says You can reroll not You must reroll. so you can choose if keep the 4+ or fish for a 6+

Also worth to remember Harlies are not just shooting units, so unless the knight it's properly screened, they can charge later to finish the job without the invul save (and they have an stratagem that deny Overwatch) so they can mass charge with some units and open gaps for other units.

I charged OOE and 9 Carnifexs with Hive Tyrants, Tyrant Guard and 2 Tyrannofexs into a Knight army. By god it was GLORIOUS watching knight after knight being leg humped into submission!

 Nurglitch wrote:
Would a unit of five Chaos Terminators with Combi-Meltas, with Prescience from a Sorcerer, a Chaos Lord in support, Veterans of the Long War, and Endless Cacophony do it?

Problem is you can't DS into half melta range, and the knight's invulnerable save makes AP-4 wasted. Lascannons would do the same job but from a safe distance, and don't need veterans of the long war to wound on 3's. Chaos terminators would be better used killing other targets. Helbrutes, havocs and las preds are a cheaper source of anti tank and can fire every turn- 5 chaos terms with meltas aren't even that much cheaper than a land raider, and work out more expensive with all the required support

Ork Tankbustas in Chinorks. Either move them across the field or Deepstrike in their flank. When the knight pops the warkopta (and the busta's survive) use the Stikkbombs strategem to 'nade 'em to death.

Probably not as point effective as 15 smasha gunz, but a lot more fun.

With orks the best tactics is to ignore it and kill the rest of the army. You need 1000+ points of ranged firepower to take a 3++ knight down, so shooting is not an option. Assaulting is also difficult since the knight is usually bubblewrapped by friendly units.

The best way to deal with it is to bring a list that spam cheap wounds other than characters and try to score points while killing the rest of the army. At some point the knight can be assaulted, but don't rely on doing that very soon.

Wulfen for example are terrible at taking down a knight because they can only outflank and then they clash against screeners. If they succeed the charge and they still are at full strenght they may get the job done, even if it requires some dead killed in return by the knight and attack twice thanks to that.

Average knights which aren't the castellan can be dealt with shooting even if we, orks, don't have an answer that can 1-shot it for the same amount of points that the knight costs.

18 smasha gunz means 36 shots plus 6 additional shots thanks to DDD on average, which means 21 hits. With their way to wound stuff they'll tipycally get 7-8 W against a knight, half of them nullyfied by the invuln. D6 for each hit that goes through, so approx 14W inflicted to the knight. With 560 points of artillery and 18 models plus 108 gretchin to buy, assemble and paint, lol

The 25 loota star will cause 18W on average with 600ish points and 5-6 CPs invested if the knight has 4++, just around 12 against the 3++ one.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Are you assuming that the models are just using their normal move rather than advancing? If they advance then the 21 shots become 10 1/2 hits. How are you getting 10 wounds pre save? You only wound on a 5+ so your 14 hits should be 5-6 wounds (again pre save). On average you'll do around 9 MW. So, in total, you should be averaging around 12 wounds per volley.

I missed the re-rolling of missed wounds and to be honest don't know the math behind figuring out the effect.

Tactically would it make any difference if you took 3 units of 2 bikes? I'm a beginning CWE player and would just add a vanguard detachment of Harlies to my list.

6D6 haywire shots = 21 hits average.

With doom, you *may* Reroll failed wounds, so you pick all 1, 2, 3 results to reroll leave 4, 5, 6 (even though 4 doesn't give you a chance at a regular wound).

Assuming doom and the knight having its 3++ up:

21 * .6666 = 14

14 * .5 (1, 2, 3 result) = 7. You can add your re-rolls to your initial rolls.

The total of these are effectively the number of "tries" you get to roll 4, 5, or 6. Each of those success results are 1/6.

21/6 = 6 results. 2 mortal wounds plus 1/3 regular wound on average.
21/6 = 5 results. 1 mortal wound plus 1/3 regular wound.
21/6 = 4 results. Just a mortal wound.

total wounds on average with doom and 3++ on the knight = 3.5+4.66+8.16 = 16.32.

^THAT is why harlequin haywire bike with souped Doom is the most popular meta solution to 3++ save single knights.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
My favorite part about this discussion is how some armies don't have any of these options.

Nids Forever!


Litterally nids best option is 6 hive guard double shooting and that doesn't kill one. lucky if I degrade it. Only the plus side though, the knights cant shoot the hive guard back, so I should get at least 2-3 turns with them.

The way I calculated it was Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws.

the_scotsman wrote:
6D6 haywire shots = 21 hits average.

With doom, you *may* Reroll failed wounds, so you pick all 1, 2, 3 results to reroll leave 4, 5, 6 (even though 4 doesn't give you a chance at a regular wound).

Assuming doom and the knight having its 3++ up:

21 * .6666 = 14

14 * .5 (1, 2, 3 result) = 7. You can add your re-rolls to your initial rolls.

The total of these are effectively the number of "tries" you get to roll 4, 5, or 6. Each of those success results are 1/6.

21/6 = 6 results. 2 mortal wounds plus 1/3 regular wound on average.
21/6 = 5 results. 1 mortal wound plus 1/3 regular wound.
21/6 = 4 results. Just a mortal wound.

total wounds on average with doom and 3++ on the knight = 3.5+4.66+8.16 = 16.32.

^THAT is why harlequin haywire bike with souped Doom is the most popular meta solution to 3++ save single knights.

Thanks for the math.

As Nids, it seems like your best options would be to make sure he's continuously "The Horror'd" to reduce his effectiveness overall, and try to go for a melee takedown.

With the horror on him, all the guns on a Raven'd up castellan with Cawl's Wrath (with the one use missiles) down a flyrant on average in a turn, with a bit of overkill. if he gets the first turn and decides to get a bit ballsy with it he'll probably get some overspill damage on something else.

So you've got about three turns for him to make all his points back while he basically drains all his army's CP to keep himself from getting shot/keep himself firing at full effectiveness. It's a tough matchup, but I can see why we do still see nid lists in the castellan meta. Having a good invuln save on your heavy stuff is really what keeps his effectiveness from spiking really hard, and Flyrants still seem to be the big Nid Heavy Thing.

I use mechanized Dominions and Exorcists. It's not really that effective, because they usually die soon afterwords and are S8, but it does work.

I also use Leman Russes and a Shadowsword.

Yeah, I assume what we're mostly talking about here is "the Boogeyman Knight" which is tacked onto a different usually Guard imperial soup list, and which 2CP is dropped on to give them the 4++ warlord trait and either Cawl's Wrath or Eternal Fury on a Crusader knight.

Then, every turn you shoot at them they pop the stratagem for a 3++, and on their turn they use the House Raven Order of Companions for reroll 1s on everything.

If you're talking about a situation where your opponent has more than one knight, their defensive/offensive profile is much less problematic because they're not able to survive conventional anti tank nearly as easily and theyre not able to make their points back nearly as quickly.

 buddha wrote:
Haywire Skyweavers. With doom, they can drop a knight in one round of shooting.

This isn't quite true. Assuming Doom DOES go off, with a single max squad of weavers you'll get 6d6 shots, which is ~21, for ~15 mortals, only 10 of which will go through the Knight's 5+++ (it's a 1CP strat that he will DEFINITELY use). While they technically CAN do it, it's statistically improbable and shouldn't be depended on.

You need two max units with Doom to cause 20 mortals, and hopefully the actual armour saves will finish him off.

Without Doom (because what self-respecting Knight player, either Imp or Chaos, doesn't have a DtW), you'll need THREE max squads. That's a lot of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Timur wrote:
How about a grand master in nemesis dreadknight with 2++ save (strategem + sanctuary), with some luck i think it can take down a knight.

My GMDK one-shotted a knight once. It's highly unlikely. 5A WS3 S12 d6dmg. If you miss with two attacks, it's impossible.
But the IK player's face was worth playing Grey Knights.

Unfeasible in a realistic scenario, but i think that the cheapest way to take it down are 5 Deathwing knights buffed by a librarian and the fight again stratagem.

Less than half the cost of the castellan and 3CP for an average of 29 wounds. 1CP more to shield wall and avoid losinging a DW knight to those big feets.

Now if we are talking about a Gallant rushing at your lines, this becomes a realistic threat.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Haywire Skyweavers. With doom, they can drop a knight in one round of shooting.

This isn't quite true. Assuming Doom DOES go off, with a single max squad of weavers you'll get 6d6 shots, which is ~21, for ~15 mortals, only 10 of which will go through the Knight's 5+++ (it's a 1CP strat that he will DEFINITELY use). While they technically CAN do it, it's statistically improbable and shouldn't be depended on.

You need two max units with Doom to cause 20 mortals, and hopefully the actual armour saves will finish him off.

Without Doom (because what self-respecting Knight player, either Imp or Chaos, doesn't have a DtW), you'll need THREE max squads. That's a lot of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Timur wrote:
How about a grand master in nemesis dreadknight with 2++ save (strategem + sanctuary), with some luck i think it can take down a knight.

My GMDK one-shotted a knight once. It's highly unlikely. 5A WS3 S12 d6dmg. If you miss with two attacks, it's impossible.
But the IK player's face was worth playing Grey Knights.

Well yeah, unlikely scenarios involving knights are always funny for that reason. The last time I played a regular knight it was a warden (with the 3++ and the relic gatling cannon) and I ended up charging it with a Librarian with Force axe, Captain with relic blade and chaplain, and they managed to slowly beat it down over 3 rounds of combat while not losing a single model (captain just kept making his 4++ saves against its feet)

How about 10man dark angels vanguard vets with jump packs and dual plasma pistols using the weapons of the old age and supercharge.. 20x S8 ap -3 3damage shots.. 270points deepstrike threat and not that CP hungry. Against pure knights there's no screens to avoid this.

You can do it better with 5 inceptors. Cost more but you can better avoid screens with range 18".

Spoletta wrote:
Unfeasible in a realistic scenario, but i think that the cheapest way to take it down are 5 Deathwing knights buffed by a librarian and the fight again stratagem.

Cheapest way is captn Slamguinius.

Wounding on 4s, saving on a 3+. So:

20x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 2.22 unsaved. So 6.67 wounds.

Even without screens, if it's a single T8 3++ Knight, you aren't doing much.

 p5freak wrote:

Cheapest way is captn Slamguinius.

Pretty much. 124 points and 1CP for Black Rage and the 4D warlord Trait. Spend another CP on Red Rampage and you will average around 12 points of damage. If you attack twice (HotC or Only in Death), you can drop a Questoris in a single round of combat.

Descent of Angels and Upon Wings of Fire give you closure options. The issues are mainly to do with getting round any screens your opponents may have.

 Nurglitch wrote:
Would a unit of five Chaos Terminators with Combi-Meltas, with Prescience from a Sorcerer, a Chaos Lord in support, Veterans of the Long War, and Endless Cacophony do it?

thats a huge amount of points for 10 shoots that could fail because of his 5++.