Tier List?

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**Xenomancers**

Marmatag wrote:
If you go by ITC, it really looks like this:

Not listing Sisters and GSC because people are waiting for codexes at this point. Also trying to focus on actual lists rather than factions, because that's how it actually works.

Tier 1 - Top Tier
#1. Imperial Guard + One Castellan. This is the top list in the game right now and has no natural counters. Imperial Guard without a castellan is also still in Tier 1, but there's no point listing it because there is no reason not to bring a castellan. You can staple it on, it may as well be a part of codex AM. This list could also easily have a BA smash captain.

#2. Ynnari + CWE. Ynnari have been performing incredibly well since the start of 8th edition really. Being able to get extra shooting phases in a game where you should have max of 6 is bonkers. Also Hemlocks. CWE is very strong in the first place. When you add in the ability to act a few times, goodness. CWE can stand on their own as well, but why, and if you are, just drop down to tier 2 below Orks with DE, since most CWE players would add DE if they aren't adding Ynnari.

Tier 2 - Very Strong Tier

#3. Orks. Orks are incredibly strong and a meta breaker in a lot of ways. Very few lists can reliably deal with these guys, and some recognizable pro-names are taking them to LVO. Boyz + dakka + characters. It's no mystery how they will beat you.

#4. Dark Eldar + CWE. Dark Eldar are very strong but have shifted down as they don't have a great answer for lists 1, 2, and 3. Poison spam, blaster spam, grotesques, etc. It's well known how this army functions at this point.

#5. Tau. Tau have always been strong, and continuously show well in major events. They are kept down by Castellans and knights. Riptides and drones though will always be good. A good Tau player who understands how to use his drones will ruin your day.

Tier 3 - Opportunistic Middle Tier

#6. Tyranids - Tyranids are a strong overall army, and received some nice points adjustments. They can't deal with knights so that puts them down. Kraken genestealers are still the best option.

#7. Thousand Sons/ TS+SuperFriends / Death Guard. Morty Mag bomb is still good, but the nerf to the DMC makes this list a lot less flexible. As a result Morty has been phased out a bit. I put all of these armies together because there is just a lot of overlap, although there really doesn't have to be. DG + Renegate Knights is also viable. There are so many ways to soup the fancy CSM that it's just really hard to spell them all out. Short answer: They're good.

#8. Deathwatch. Poisoned 2+ ammo and spammable storm bolters / intercessors, will be made much better if the new bolter rules become a reality. The only thing keeping DW down is the fact that they can't deal with vehicles, and they still operate on the same core marine statline. Their offense power is more overall efficient than Bobby G if you're using the right stuff. You can also soup in a castellan and guard, because, why not.

Tier 4 - Not Great, but can win inconsistently

#9. Necrons. Received some price cuts and weren't very good prior, but can do a little bit of damage. They have volume dakka, which can never really be counted out.

#10. Ultramarines. If you build a BobbyG gunline and go first on a table with no terrain, you'll probably win. Since that happens about half the time, expecting a 500 winrate is not entirely unreasonable. Could also have BA.

Tier 5 - Complete Awful Tier

#11. AdMech. One gimmick, not great at it.

#doesn't matter. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Codex Marines. These guys have no presence in a soup list, because when you're adding to your imperial guard, deathwatch are the best play. And, since they don't benefit from bobby G's rerolls, they have no place in a UM list. A supreme command with a rune priest, dark angels librarian, and another librarian is still a thing, but that doesn't really count as running these armies. that's the actual definition of soup, which people conflate with allies all the time on here.

Really Solid break down - with my only disagreement probably is Admech which is probably more in the opportunistic range simply because they can whip a Castellan off the face of the Earth quite easily. Probably better than any other army. With that being a top meta element - it's got to place them higher. Plus they have insane chaff clearing with castellan robots. Knight killing = tops chaff killing = tops. The only place they are weak is mobility I suppose.

**Horst**

How does Admech deal with Knights easily?

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

I think BA are definitely decent, and there's no way that Marines are in the same category as GK.

Like Marines aren't actually that bad, they're just not top tier.

GK are bad.

**Bharring**

When your definition of Trash Tier is "$army and worse", then $army is always Trash Tier, regardless of actual rankings.

**Valentine009**

6 Ryza Kataphrons 1 shot a 4++ knight on average but they are fragile. At least they are troops and can hide in buildings though.*

It's actually 24w vs a 5++ and 20w vs a 4++ knight.

**Tyel**

Happy to be told ITC results show it differently - but I'd be surprised if Necron players were doing better than Ad Mech players. I mean I can't see why you'd run a mono Ad Mech army beyond the lols - Souped in Knights are just that good - but its still got more to it than Necrons imo. Happy to be shown I am wrong.

Also feel Chaos Soup places better than opportunistic mid tier - but that might have changed with CA too.

**Jancoran**

Zande4 wrote:
Have been out of the hobby pretty much since 8th dropped.

I've heard good things and that the game is a lot more balanced thab 7th.

Is a tier list still relevant? Are certain armies still well above others or is everything that's had a standalone coded somewhat close.

Any armies excel at certain missions or rule sets while falling flat in others?

Ynarri wasn't fixed. So we're still stuck with that. Eldar Altaioc are top tier, with orks now being also top tier and winning many events (perhaps a breathe of fresh air there).

Knights are very often accompanying top lists, although i still think over committing to them is not working out as well because objectives are still a thing. Even the Faithful 32 IG can't change that. In particular Knight synergy with Adeptas Mechanicus makes that combination one of the sneakiest scary armies you might run into, as Kastellans are as crazy as lootaz, as firebases go. Kill em quick, but they wont make that easy.

LOTS of data will be out following the LVO. That's for sure.

**Xenomancers**

Horst wrote:
How does Admech deal with Knights easily?

Well - a 6 man Kastellan robot unit shooting twice with wrath of mars and +2 to hit from stratagems and rerolling all hits does 29 wounds to a knight with a 3++ - 24 if the knight has 5++ fnp for 4 total CP points spent in defense. That is REALLY good. Can the rest of the army do 4 wounds? Most likely. Roll a little high and it dies just from that salvo.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Valentine009 wrote:
6 Ryza Kataphrons 1 shot a 4++ knight on average but they are fragile. At least they are troops and can hide in buildings though.*

It's actually 24w vs a 5++ and 20w vs a 4++ knight.

They aren't that fragile - if they use 5++ invo from vigilis and are on an objective and use the +1 to save strat they have a 4++ - that is pretty good. Granted it's expensive - but it is a death star strategy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I think BA are definitely decent, and there's no way that Marines are in the same category as GK.

Like Marines aren't actually that bad, they're just not top tier.

GK are bad.

Wrong - they are bottom tier. GK being worse than them does not change that.

**Smirrors**

Also depends on where your playing and the talent of said players.

In Australia for example the meta and tier list is probably different. The largest ITC tournament with 140 people over the last weekend had the following results:

1 Nid/GSC (150 termagants)
2 Deathwatch/IK (3 10man utility vet squad)
3 Daemons (120 plagues and 500 summon points)
3 Ork (no boyz, lotsa meganobz and gretchin)
5 IK/DA/AM (triple Dark Talons)
6 TS/Daemons
7 CE/HQ
8 Admech/IK
8 Daemons (180 plagues)
10 Daemons (110 plagues)

As a guard player myself, mono guard feels like Tier 2 and maybe even the bottom of Tier 2 after all updates.

With Castellan, AM soup highest was 29th whereas highest mono was 97th.

**Horst**

I didn't realize those Kastellan Robots got 18 shots each, and could do mortal wounds on 6 to wound. That's insane.

**Xenomancers**

Smirrors wrote:
Also depends on where your playing and the talent of said players.

In Australia for example the meta and tier list is probably different. The largest ITC tournament with 140 people over the last weekend had the following results:

1 Nid/GSC (150 termagants)
2 Deathwatch/IK (3 10man utility vet squad)
3 Daemons (120 plagues and 500 summon points)
3 Ork (no boyz, lotsa meganobz and gretchin)
5 IK/DA/AM (triple Dark Talons)
6 TS/Daemons
7 CE/HQ
8 Admech/IK
8 Daemons (180 plagues)
10 Daemons (110 plagues)

As a guard player myself, mono guard feels like Tier 2 and maybe even the bottom of Tier 2 after all updates.

With Castellan, AM soup highest was 29th whereas highest mono was 97th.

Guard received one of the biggest buffs in the most recent CA. Reduced cost of a brigade with sentinels going down in price. A supreme command of Russ going down a whopping 75 points at a minimum. Also you aren't talking about skill - you are talking about prevalence. In a meta in which termagants are doing well (termagants are quite terrible) There isn't a great prevalence of guard. There is really no question that guard are the top army right now.

**Horst**

Xenomancers wrote:

Guard received one of the biggest buffs in the most recent CA. Reduced cost of a brigade with sentinels going down in price. A supreme command of Russ going down a whopping 75 points at a minimum. Also you aren't talking about skill - you are talking about prevalence. In a meta in which termagants are doing well (termagants are quite terrible) There isn't a great prevalence of guard. There is really no question that guard are the top army right now.

Heh. Guard is a very good army, but what exactly makes you think they're the top army?

https://www.40kstats.com/

Going by purely win % when it's the primary faction, Guard are 5th.

All 3 Eldar, and Thousand Sons apparently, have higher win %. Guard has a win % of 53.89%. That's certainly good, but It's definitely not "unquestionable" that they're the top.

**Jancoran**

Horst wrote:
I didn't realize those Kastellan Robots got 18 shots each, and could do mortal wounds on 6 to wound. That's insane.

and they re-roll to hit if thy are set up correctly. Insane doesnt begin to describe them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:

There is really no question that guard are the top army right now.

I dunno bout that man... I mean I sure dont mind seeing guard across the table from me. Even when the faithful 32 show up to annoy me its like "sure, okay have your fun". I am really surprised that Guard would be so highly regarded. I scoff at no faction because that's not what I'm about and I know a good general will take you behind the woodshed and beat you like a red headed stepshild with nothing more than a wet noodle with alittle luck. But Guard have been sporadic in the top levels of tournaments. they are always in there somewhere in the top 8 and that makes them good for sure but top army?

**Marin**

wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the top mono builds are certainly CW, Drukhari and AM, while IK mono builds are a bit questionable as they are too light on models.

In LVO the most spammed fraction is IK and IK mono is also spammed. It`s normal IK are the best fraction and IK + AM is considered to be the list to win the tournament.
Thousand sons and chaos demons mix is also super strong. I guess you can win with everything if you are good enough and don`t make mistakes.

**Spoletta**

Marin wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the top mono builds are certainly CW, Drukhari and AM, while IK mono builds are a bit questionable as they are too light on models.

In LVO the most spammed fraction is IK and IK mono is also spammed. It`s normal IK are the best fraction and IK + AM is considered to be the list to win the tournament.
Thousand sons and chaos demons mix is also super strong. I guess you can win with everything if you are good enough and don`t make mistakes.

This.

In general tiers matter much less than in previous edition. In 7th you would look at the lists and already know who was going to win. In 8th that happens only between tier S and tier E. You are not going to win with mono grey knights against imp soup, but with a B tier against an S tier? Tyranids eating imperail soups happens all the time, and between A tier codici and S tier soups there is the largest gap. Among mono codex games, you can play almost everything against everything and the list will matter less than the player, a good necron player will trample a less skilled AM player.

**Mushkilla**

Marin wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the top mono builds are certainly CW, Drukhari and AM, while IK mono builds are a bit questionable as they are too light on models.

In LVO the most spammed fraction is IK and IK mono is also spammed. It`s normal IK are the best fraction and IK + AM is considered to be the list to win the tournament.
Thousand sons and chaos demons mix is also super strong. I guess you can win with everything if you are good enough and don`t make mistakes.

Huhh? Last I heard Orks are going to win the LVO.

**Marin**

Mushkilla wrote:
Marin wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the top mono builds are certainly CW, Drukhari and AM, while IK mono builds are a bit questionable as they are too light on models.

In LVO the most spammed fraction is IK and IK mono is also spammed. It`s normal IK are the best fraction and IK + AM is considered to be the list to win the tournament.
Thousand sons and chaos demons mix is also super strong. I guess you can win with everything if you are good enough and don`t make mistakes.

Huhh? Last I heard Orks are going to win the LVO.

The best and luckiest player will win the tournament. I mean in HEAT one of the eldar player cease the initiative like 3 from his 4 games vs knights and he lost the 4 game.
Orc have couple of very good players and they are strong, but the stats are showing they have problems dealing with IK and in LVO like 10% of the players are bringing knight.

**A.T.**

Horst wrote:
All 3 Eldar, and Thousand Sons apparently, have higher win %. Guard has a win % of 53.89%. That's certainly good, but It's definitely not "unquestionable" that they're the top.

How far armies get into the top 8/16 places of the bigger tournaments is arguably more important than their win %.
After all a guard army getting knocked out by another guard army returns a 50% win ratio for the guard, and the strongest armies (and marines) tend to have the most representation.

**An Actual Englishman**

Marmatag - how do you figure Orks are above CWE and DE soup when DE outperform them as a mono army without doombot CWE? What stats are you using to place Orks 3rd since their faction ranking is much, much lower according to BCP?

**Stux**

How do mono Custodes fit in that list?

I'd put them below Deathwatch but above Necrons.

**the_scotsman**

Pretty good breakdown from Marmatag IMO, I'd throw custodes in there somewhere in the middle tier with the all-bike list though they definitely have been dethroned by the knights. Orks would indeed much rather we be in a Deldar light vehicle spam meta than a superheavy meta. Prognostication from my tournament-hopping buddies is that Orks Deathwatch and Admech will surprise, Chaos and Deldar will disappoint, and Castellan soup will remain top dog in LVO.

**SHUPPET**

marmatags is actually pretty good other than the Ultramarine downplay.

**Stux**

SHUPPET wrote:
marmatags is actually pretty good other than the Ultramarine downplay.

Yeah I generally agree with it. Missing Custodes, and also while I appreciate Marines are all low tier it would still be good to see them broken down.

Personally I feel Dangles with Azrael Gunline are probably as good or better than AdMech. Possibly with Necrons even.

Though I take the point that the bottom of the table is not massively relevant. Not enough high skill players running those armies in a competitive setting to get an accurate reading.

**Spoletta**

A.T. wrote:
Horst wrote:
All 3 Eldar, and Thousand Sons apparently, have higher win %. Guard has a win % of 53.89%. That's certainly good, but It's definitely not "unquestionable" that they're the top.
How far armies get into the top 8/16 places of the bigger tournaments is arguably more important than their win %.
After all a guard army getting knocked out by another guard army returns a 50% win ratio for the guard, and the strongest armies (and marines) tend to have the most representation.

Depends on what you are looking for.

If what you are interested in is the strenght and quality of a codex, top places in big tournaments will not tell you anything. A codex can have one busted model which propels it to big results, but the codex sucks.

Big tournament results tell you how strong is a faction when put in the hands of a really good player whith an extremely optimized list. Doesn't tell you anything about the average results you can expect from that codex.

Marmatag tiers are top level tournament tiers, and tell you how likely you are to meet that faction is said tournaments. That's not what i would define as a "faction tier list".
If you are part of that 99% of players that doesn't care about high level competition, and are never going to compete in anything bigger than the event at the store, that list isn't really accurate.

Depending on what is the game environment of the OP, the answer could be "Look at marmatag list and go from there" or "Don't play GK against soups, everything else is fair game".

**Gene St. Ealer**

SHUPPET wrote:
marmatags is actually pretty good other than the Ultramarine downplay.

Marmatag plays Ultras and DE and engages in the age-old dakka custom of downplaying his personal armies.

**Valentine009**

The problem with both Kastellans and Kataphrons is that they are hard countered by Helvarins. As a result I'm not sure the knight match is as good as it seems.

**Cynista**

I think some of these lists are somewhat off

For me, soup of all flavours is the best, so only counting mono-factions;

-Guard
-Dark Eldar
-Eldar
-Tau
-Knights
-Harlequins
-Tyranids
-Deamons
-Orks
-Thousand Sons
-Death Guard
-Custodes
-Mechanicus
-Blood Angels
-Vanilla CSM
-Deathwatch
-Marines (including Space Wolves and other sub factions)
-Necrons
-Grey Knights

Top 3 are interchangeable. Otherwise more or less in order of best to worst

**Spoletta**

I would rate Dark Angels much higher than other maries, especially if you use the new bolter beta rules, which are great for them.

**Marmatag**

I put all the marines in the same bucket because functionally it doesn't matter if one is slightly better than the other, because they fundamentally have the same problems.

GK have the highest win percentage amongst marines, but that is also because up until DW they were the defacto combination with AM.

Knights phased on GMNDK.
DW phased on GKSS.

But until DW and Knights GK had their place in the pale sun.

As it stands, AdMech can pump out damage. This is not questioned. However, we have to remember that math hammer helps understand efficiency, but it doesn't tell you how feasible it is to get that setup to actually function on the table.

For example, Space Wolves can have 6 attack base Wolf Guards by stacking Arjac + Wulfen Stone + Attack Saga + Vigilus Attack Saga. But come on. It's hard enough to activate one saga, let alone get veterans into melee with anything substantial. And logistically having 3 characters grouped up within 6" of your Wolf Guards is patently absurd. But you could math all of this out against a Gallant and conclude some nonsense.

Necrons can win games in similar ways to bobby g. Go first and move your dudes within range of key stuff, my will be done, and go ham. Against admech you will vaporize those robots turn 1, and the game is over.

And the new bolter rules are a joke.

**Xenomancers**

Valentine009 wrote:
The problem with both Kastellans and Kataphrons is that they are hard countered by Helvarins. As a result I'm not sure the knight match is as good as it seems.

Hellverines hardly ever show up in competitive play. I'm bringing some to LVO though

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Horst wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

Guard received one of the biggest buffs in the most recent CA. Reduced cost of a brigade with sentinels going down in price. A supreme command of Russ going down a whopping 75 points at a minimum. Also you aren't talking about skill - you are talking about prevalence. In a meta in which termagants are doing well (termagants are quite terrible) There isn't a great prevalence of guard. There is really no question that guard are the top army right now.

Heh. Guard is a very good army, but what exactly makes you think they're the top army?

https://www.40kstats.com/

Going by purely win % when it's the primary faction, Guard are 5th.

All 3 Eldar, and Thousand Sons apparently, have higher win %. Guard has a win % of 53.89%. That's certainly good, but It's definitely not "unquestionable" that they're the top.

The actual data does not exist to support my argument. Because mono armies aren't really played. Imperial soup more or less always includes guard. Primary faction doesn't really indicate anything - I'm not even sure it means you spend the most points on that detachment or anything. I guess It's the detachment your warlord comes from. This data is decent for detecting trends - but it is not detailed enough to really give you an idea of what army is the strongest right now.