Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I know, I waste points on regular assault marines (I like the bodies, although with the vets now only a point more...) Anyway, the sgt can take a combat shield. It's 4 points in the space marine codex and I can't find anything changing that in CA. Help me out. I really hope GW didn't mean for a regular assault marine sgt with a combat shield to cost more than a vanguard vet with a storm shield...(being GW I suspect they do, because you know, GW...)

40k is a compilation of accidents. GW didn't intend for an Assault Marine with a combat shield to cost more than a Vanguard Veteran with a storm shield, but more people complained about the storm shield because it's on more units and comes in more kits, so GW changed it where they didn't change the Combat Shield because it exists on one obsolete unit that nobody uses and people didn't complain enough about it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
40k is a compilation of accidents. GW didn't intend for an Assault Marine with a combat shield to cost more than a Vanguard Veteran with a storm shield, but more people complained about the storm shield because it's on more units and comes in more kits, so GW changed it where they didn't change the Combat Shield because it exists on one obsolete unit that nobody uses and people didn't complain enough about it.

Two obsolete units that nobody uses. Company Champions also get them

But that little bit of pedantry aside, I completely agree. There are so many moving pieces to the 40k puzzle it’s hard to keep every in balance and working smoothy. Particularly with marines and their unit bloat and multiple codexes. They couldn’t get it done even when they rebooted the rules in 8th and re-did all the armies at once with the indexes.

That said, for casual play, it's mostly fine. While some units are better than others, there are few that are outright horrible. And if everyone plays a few units that they just like, despite being mediocre, it evens out.

Thanks guys, guess I didn't miss anything. The complexity and rules bloat do cause things to be missed and I think you have summed the reasons up perfectly.
Nevelon, your last sentence sums up my group's play style exactly. The saddest part is my assault marines are attached to my Whit scars...so double up on the we got hosed this edition statements.
And all that said, they'll still be on the table causing issues!

Though with price of stormshields what would even be fair price? Even for free the stormshield would be obvious choice.

Similar issue with ork cybork bodies. As is 5 pts for 6+++ is ridiculous with stormshield in comparison. Even 1 pts would be overpriced for way inferior save.

All true Tneva. Not sure where we go now that storm shield went to 2 points. I fear the death star concept is returning to 40k and if you played 7th you DO NOT want to see that.

They should just remove the combat shields by turning them into stormshields. There are various different sizes and shapes of stromshields already, so the combat shield bit is representative enough.

The combat shield does fill a niche where it doesn’t take a hand. So you can have a shooty bit, choppy bit, AND the save. It’s not much, but it’s there.

But with the changes to the armor system, the options available to the guy who can have it, and the amount of points it costs, it’s just not worth it. Frankly, I think they should just be free, they are so situational. It’s not like the guys who can have them are cutting edge competitive.

There is a significant difference between a 5++ and a 6+++. The ability to layer saves is significant, and a cause of serious issues in prior editions. A 5++ on a 3+ PA marine is only going to be relevant when hit with AP 3+ weapons.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
40k is a compilation of accidents. GW didn't intend for an Assault Marine with a combat shield to cost more than a Vanguard Veteran with a storm shield, but more people complained about the storm shield because it's on more units and comes in more kits, so GW changed it where they didn't change the Combat Shield because it exists on one obsolete unit that nobody uses and people didn't complain enough about it.

The strange part of this post though is nobody was really complaining about the cost of Storm Shields.

Combat shields 2pts, Storm Shields 4pts, and I play Deathwatch!

 bullyboy wrote:
Combat shields 2pts, Storm Shields 4pts, and I play Deathwatch!

Storm Shields need to go back to 5.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Combat shields 2pts, Storm Shields 4pts, and I play Deathwatch!

Storm Shields need to go back to 5.

you'd really haggle over 1pt?

Yes I absolutely will.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Combat shields 2pts, Storm Shields 4pts, and I play Deathwatch!

Storm Shields need to go back to 5.

They are fine at 2 even with all most free SS marines are still trash.

 mew28 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Combat shields 2pts, Storm Shields 4pts, and I play Deathwatch!

Storm Shields need to go back to 5.

They are fine at 2 even with all most free SS marines are still trash.

Tell that to Deathwatch that can abuse the new cost of Storm Shields. They still shouldn't be only 2 points on Vanguard either.

If you fix the core unit, you'd realize an almost free 3++ is fundamentally broken.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mew28 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Combat shields 2pts, Storm Shields 4pts, and I play Deathwatch!

Storm Shields need to go back to 5.

They are fine at 2 even with all most free SS marines are still trash.

Tell that to Deathwatch that can abuse the new cost of Storm Shields. They still shouldn't be only 2 points on Vanguard either.

If you fix the core unit, you'd realize an almost free 3++ is fundamentally broken.

Deathwatch are still poor even with the cheap storm shield and storm bolter due to their lack of good AV and the prevalence of ultra cheap units that are not overly concerned with 2+ wounding ammo.

 mew28 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mew28 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Combat shields 2pts, Storm Shields 4pts, and I play Deathwatch!

Storm Shields need to go back to 5.

They are fine at 2 even with all most free SS marines are still trash.

Tell that to Deathwatch that can abuse the new cost of Storm Shields. They still shouldn't be only 2 points on Vanguard either.

If you fix the core unit, you'd realize an almost free 3++ is fundamentally broken.

Deathwatch are still poor even with the cheap storm shield and storm bolter due to their lack of good AV and the prevalence of ultra cheap units that are not overly concerned with 2+ wounding ammo.

except you take DW for the vets to decimate hordes/infantry and do AT elsewhere.

Ouch.

IMO, Storm Shields would be good at 3ppm. But models still die to weight of fire just as fast as regular Marines, so 2ppm is probably fine.

Combat Shields, should therefore be free. Only the Sgt can take one in most cases anyway and since you almost never allocate a wound to the Sgt until he is the last model, a Combat Shield does basically nothing. But if you make it free, at least you can model it on him for cool-factor

-

Yeah, at this point it should just be a free upgrade, or 1 point at the absolute most.

Of course it's pretty stupid.

However, there is a difference between the two: combat shield is a wargear, not a weapon option. So you can have it plus a melee weapon plus something else.

Still, pretty much stupid, point-wise.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Combat shields 2pts, Storm Shields 4pts, and I play Deathwatch!

Storm Shields need to go back to 5.

A B S O L U T E L Y

The current price ends up contributing to really dull games ...

edwardmyst wrote:
Thanks guys, guess I didn't miss anything. The complexity and rules bloat do cause things to be missed and I think you have summed the reasons up perfectly.
Nevelon, your last sentence sums up my group's play style exactly. The saddest part is my assault marines are attached to my Whit scars...so double up on the we got hosed this edition statements.
And all that said, they'll still be on the table causing issues!

Give them a promotion to the Vanguard with the 3 points you save from counting that combat shield as a storm shield and scrounge 2 more points from somewhere else.

2 point stormshields was a slapdash attempt to balance marines.

Because accepting there are core problems with the structure of the edition and power creep, as it relates to the marine statline, requires a more significant rework.

The storm shields are mostly helping deathwatch. Because deathwatch was already the most useful of all marines, and they can spam stormshields. Of course, I would argue that something like poisoned 2+ should NOT EXIST in this game at all.

edwardmyst wrote:
All true Tneva. Not sure where we go now that storm shield went to 2 points. I fear the death star concept is returning to 40k and if you played 7th you DO NOT want to see that.

Another symptom from steady downing of points. Room at bottom is real small. Gw missed golden chance of using 8th to double or triple every cost and standard game size. Would have given more room to manouver with points.

Going from tacticals costing 30/model to now with same game sizes results in more than just upping of model count