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drakerocket wrote:
I'm having a little bit of a hard time envisioning what a solid army looks like, while avoiding the things it feels like we're punished for taking.

Heavy support slot is pretty slim without LRs, elite slot feels pretty over-packed. FA I guess will be bikes, though their exact role seems kind of scattered brained at this point?

Troops...seem solid~ish? But they're more or less deep striking IG but without orders and more expensive? That isn't bad, I guess, but no one is really running guard hordes exactly.

It feels like the better build is going to be a patrol or small brigade of kraken stealers (because ours are awful?), a supreme command of tank commanders are the real "base" of the army. And then I guess we build from there? Hard to see at the moment though outside of I guess DS'ing aberrants and character assassins we really bring to the fore.

Okay, I'm not going to write a list, but off the bat, my interpretations so far:



Staples:

Nexos seems really good. So many good stratagems, even more so if combined with Tyranids, this guy might make you back 6 CP over the course of the game - thats a battalions worth, probably want to take him for like 50 pts or whatever he is, and the other stuff is just a bonus.

Patriarch is really good. Fearless bubble, cost effective offense wise, character, and has the strongest Mental Onslaught cast in the game.

Magus is really good too, so are the familiars. I'd say you want at least one of all the above 3 units, almost without fail.

Acolytes are really good troops at 7pts. Definitely consider hand flamers too. Similar to Bloodletters for Khorne, and Tzaangors for TSons, I feel like these are our new bread and butter for offense. They also belong in the deepstrike category because they do that very well too, but I think they belong here as well.


Potential pieces:


Primus is a force multiplier. +1 to hit for the meat of the army is significant. May even be an auto-include like the above units, closest thing to it.

Kelermorph seems to be his biggest impact will be making your opponent screen and punishing bad play, but he's cheap enough that just doing this and even taking down a few infantry might still be very worthwhile.

Biophagus seems like hes really good, he's just so cheap and the impact may be significant especially if you tag multiple units over the course of the game.

Acolyte Iconward depends on what you're doing, but I'm pretty sure you can get Aberrants down to 3+ FNP with one near them combined with a strat which is just... brutal for how much damage they can put out. Combined with maybe Bladed Cog might be an absurdly hard to lift unit in the vein of Talos. This guy's pretty straight forward - "do I want to spend 40 pts to give an FNP bubble and does my list play in such a way to benefit from that?"

Cult Leman Russ are always good to add more staying power to GSC and just let you put some tanky bois on the table to push around the field and likely do consistent damage every single turn while the rest of their army is focused on your big threats. I think these are pretty good and should never be looked over too hastily.

Jackals, once we get the ruling ironed out on them it seems they have the potential to be quite good or bad. Just gonna put them here tentatively so they don't get looked over. At the end of the day I think they are cheap, durable and speedy enough to hold ground efficiently, and they'd be great in like Codex: Tau or something, but I think their role might just be a bit unnecessary in the GSC dex unless they can actually threaten to do something offensively.

I personally think the Locus is being slept on a little, he can eat a few wounds from a Patriach or something to keep him alive in a pinch, but above all I think for 40 pts, he's just got a good statline worth his cost, especially as a deepstriker should you need him and with the many bonus's available that he can just pick up by being there. However, I'm one of the people who thinks Lictors are really good now at 33 pts, and you can probably see the similarities here, so fair warning that I recognise this one might possibly[/b] be a more personal thing - but then again maybe not. I don't think he'll ever be a [i]bad inclusion tbh, especially as his cheap as chips price.


Deepstrikers:

Clamavus seem really good for any sort of deepstriking. Auto-take if you're doing any sort of thing like that, he's the new Primus.

Broodsurge Deliverance Neophytes are really good for units that don't need any more help to get into CC. 20 man strong ones + Might will actually hurt too when the stratagem goes off. Cult of the 4 Arm Emperor (C4E?) makes sure every unit will almost always get into combat since that will total to +2 to a charge that you can re-roll, but going up to S4 with Twisted Helix will make them hit harder and they still have +1 to charge.

Purestrains still gain more from Might cast than anything else, if you are willing to spend CP on the 3D6 charge strat, they get into combat really consistently out of deepstrike. They will also are the best units for multi-assaulting a big line of defenders, and will shred things when they double fight. They are no longer the go-to assault unit, but they are still the best target for targeted buffs and get more of them than any other unit. I'll probably consider taking a full unit in every list just because they put out the scariest threat bubble in the dex to non-tank units, and you can do a lot of trickery with deployment to always make sure they are in the right position to not get wrecked, and apply their damage.

Anointed Throng Abberants with Picks are really good (making an Abominant a good choice too if you take them), and you can buff the Abominant to absurd levels of fightiness with different relics and traits etc. These can probably work without deepstrike too as the units are small enough to fit in transports, so maybe they don't belong strictly in this category. Abberants are also great recievers of targeted buffs, and Twisted Helix or Might will really let them reach excellent levels of strength with their Power Picks. Hammers are good too. Take a Primus and an Abominant if you take any sort of real investment into these guys.




These are my picks for good units in the dex so far. I don't know how to evaluate the transports just yet, none of them are too bad really. I think most of the rest of the units are a bit of a whiff but thats okay, thats most the dex up there. I'll add my opinions about traits and strats soon, but this is where I stand on the units. However I will quickly add that I think the D3 CP Warlord trait is by far the best, and that every list should have at least one C4E detachment for probably that, but definitely the "Vect" equivalent.

@ceph, how are you getting LD+3 in that list? thought that required the inspirational leader WLT. I think your list is rocking a +2. Not a huge difference. I expect that power to get nerfed in short order anyway since it can one shot a knight if you use allies to get the -2 ld. But while it lasts, don't forget to mind control it FIRST so you can shoot his buddy before you burst the pilots brain

 Red Corsair wrote:
I would actually consider keeping a third more bare bones and possibly larger for the first turn, as it is nice having a fast unit to mow down screens and tie forward threats down.

What load out can that unit take to mow down screens? Can they even kill a single 10 man unit of guardsmen in the space of 2 turns?

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I would actually consider keeping a third more bare bones and possibly larger for the first turn, as it is nice having a fast unit to mow down screens and tie forward threats down.

What load out can that unit take to mow down screens? Can they even kill a single 10 man unit of guardsmen in the space of 2 turns?

Well, apparently as of now you can take auto guns and shot guns but I doubt that lasts beyond the usual 2nd week FAQ. However, despite that a unit with 2 quads, plus shot guns and GL's is not terrible. It would need to be 10 models to be effective though. Still, that's fairly cheap. If an alphus is used in concert (you want her for the demo units later anyway) that should do a little over 10 wounds to GEQ at 6" range band. With a 14" move thats not bad, it's even better in rusted claw since they can advance and fire with no penalty. Cast the advance and charge spell and you can tag other units after. I really want to know what the hammer they can take do.

yeah hand flamer acolytes are cuhraaaaazy. Glad I have 5 already built for the lulz, once again my habit of building things the way they make me happy has given me a collection of reasonable amounts of things that have become good now.

speaking of which, I'm kind of adoring the buffed profile of the seismic cannon coupled with our grenade launchers. a cult ambushing squad of neos with 2 seismics and 2 GLs looks to be a very flexible little unit - antichaff if you position the seismics outside 12, anti light vehicle if you position them within.

the_scotsman wrote:
yeah hand flamer acolytes are cuhraaaaazy. Glad I have 5 already built for the lulz, once again my habit of building things the way they make me happy has given me a collection of reasonable amounts of things that have become good now.

speaking of which, I'm kind of adoring the buffed profile of the seismic cannon coupled with our grenade launchers. a cult ambushing squad of neos with 2 seismics and 2 GLs looks to be a very flexible little unit - antichaff if you position the seismics outside 12, anti light vehicle if you position them within.

Yea I have 11 with them + 4 metas with them. I am the same way, I have a few drills and cutters as well as the saws and a few demos and I am glad I have those as well.

I don't really like the seismic canons myself. I know lots of folks do but I like the mining laser more. I do own a couple so maybe I will give them a go, they certainly seem better then heavy stubbers but then again the HS is only 2 ppm now lol. Thats the funny thing about this book, I don't think you can really go wrong on load outs. Even the webber seems solid now at 1ppm. 2d3 auto hits at 16 for 2 points is kind of hard to scoff at, even if the damage it does won't be massive at all.

Are hand flamers REALLY 1PPM? If so how's 20 acolytes with flamers dropping in with the strat to hand out 70 S3 auto hits (using the strat to get close of course)

The flames alone would do 4 wounds to a KNIGHT let alone any softer targets (GEQ = around 22 dead models)

Not bad for 160pts, and then they can charge whatever was cowering behind the screen they just nuked.

I'm sorry, but how do you gain leadership with the patriarch?

I feel from the competitive stand point the Ridgerunner is never going to see the table.

I think casually its not too bad - but the odds of getting that 1 on the mining laser (and the other weapons are bad) is too high. If its guns were assault it might be more interesting.

Also paying 10 points to ignore cover for a model like this is insane. They must really rate heavy stubbers.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Are hand flamers REALLY 1PPM? If so how's 20 acolytes with flamers dropping in with the strat to hand out 70 S3 auto hits (using the strat to get close of course)

The flames alone would do 4 wounds to a KNIGHT let alone any softer targets (GEQ = around 22 dead models)

Not bad for 160pts, and then they can charge whatever was cowering behind the screen they just nuked.

Yeah it's going to be incredibly powerful. Especially since they assault really strong. On that note, you may actually miss the assault by doing this, any wise opponent is going to take casualities from the front. There will need to be some careful decision making done there.

 Red Corsair wrote:
@ceph, how are you getting LD+3 in that list? thought that required the inspirational leader WLT. I think your list is rocking a +2. Not a huge difference. I expect that power to get nerfed in short order anyway since it can one shot a knight if you use allies to get the -2 ld. But while it lasts, don't forget to mind control it FIRST so you can shoot his buddy before you burst the pilots brain

Magus has inspirational leader, iconward has +1 banner, clamavus is +1.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
@ceph, how are you getting LD+3 in that list? thought that required the inspirational leader WLT. I think your list is rocking a +2. Not a huge difference. I expect that power to get nerfed in short order anyway since it can one shot a knight if you use allies to get the -2 ld. But while it lasts, don't forget to mind control it FIRST so you can shoot his buddy before you burst the pilots brain

Magus has inspirational leader, iconward has +1 banner, clamavus is +1.

Iconward banner is reroll LD, not +1

What is inspirational leader?

i dont see that warlord trait.

zamerion wrote:
What is inspirational leader?

i dont see that warlord trait.

Generic warlord trait from BRB

thanks!!

I didnt remember it

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
@ceph, how are you getting LD+3 in that list? thought that required the inspirational leader WLT. I think your list is rocking a +2. Not a huge difference. I expect that power to get nerfed in short order anyway since it can one shot a knight if you use allies to get the -2 ld. But while it lasts, don't forget to mind control it FIRST so you can shoot his buddy before you burst the pilots brain

Magus has inspirational leader, iconward has +1 banner, clamavus is +1.

Iconward banner is reroll LD, not +1

Sorry, not a BANNER, Just the only possible Broodsurge relic he could take, that I had mentioned somewhat whimsically.

Vial of the Grandsire's Blood:Effectively Iconward only due to keywords, add +1 leadership to friendly cult models within 6"

A very pedantic difference in naming.

Yea, sorry I missed the magus. It is something that I imagine will be FAQ'd in two weeks though. Auto killing any model is crazy. I wonder how they would balance it if they do, probably put a cap on how many MW you can do. Not that I mind deleting a casellan after shooting it's guns


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Are hand flamers REALLY 1PPM? If so how's 20 acolytes with flamers dropping in with the strat to hand out 70 S3 auto hits (using the strat to get close of course)

The flames alone would do 4 wounds to a KNIGHT let alone any softer targets (GEQ = around 22 dead models)

Not bad for 160pts, and then they can charge whatever was cowering behind the screen they just nuked.

You can go a couple different ways. if you perfect ambush first and roll a die to move closer you can then shoot AND charge, though as shuppet says casualty removal will be an issue unless there are more then one target. Or you can use lying in wait and drop 3.1" away and shoot but not charge, which hilariously can be stacked with perfect ambush to shoot twice, averaging 140 s3 autohits from a unit of 20. BUT, I don't think you are going to get 20 in range even with stratagems since we are on 32mm bases. It's another tool in the box though and at 1ppm I can't blame anyone for taking hand flamers on every acolyte that can.

 DoomMouse wrote:
(using the strat to get close of course)

Not bad for 160pts, and then they can charge whatever was cowering behind the screen they just nuked.

If you use the Lying in Wait Stratagem to drop in within 3'' the unit can't initiate a charge that turn. Disregarding that, a 20-strong unit is probably going to be overkill against just about anything you might expect to see as screens. I could see it being ok for rooting out Loota bombs or large units of Ork Boyz, but I'm not sure how cost effective it would be against the wider field.

I think the main utility from Lying In Wait will be the ability to block escape routes for units about to be locked in close combat by dropping a squad behind the intended target. With good placement and pile-in it should be possible to trap a unit in combat by making it unable to fully pull away without moving within 1'' of either squad.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
(using the strat to get close of course)

Not bad for 160pts, and then they can charge whatever was cowering behind the screen they just nuked.

If you use the Lying in Wait Stratagem to drop in within 3'' the unit can't initiate a charge that turn. Disregarding that, a 20-strong unit is probably going to be overkill against just about anything you might expect to see as screens. I could see it being ok for rooting out Loota bombs or large units of Ork Boyz, but I'm not sure how cost effective it would be against the wider field.

I think the main utility from Lying In Wait will be the ability to block escape routes for units about to be locked in close combat by dropping a squad behind the intended target. With good placement and pile-in it should be possible to trap a unit in combat by making it unable to fully pull away without moving within 1'' of either squad.

Here's the thing, nobody HAS to use either stratagem on the unit. The 20 hand flamers is 20 points lol. That's whats interesting, for 1ppm you basically just add another tool to the box. If your opponent is prepared or it isn't the right tool just don't use those stratagems.

I mean, we basically have a year until HF's go up in cost. I can't imagine this wasn't a time delay error in printing. Blood angels pay 1ppm also, but when they got a release HF's were d3 hits, the Sisters Beta Dex is the most recent book in development and they added the designers note to count HF's as d6 auto hits but they pay 3ppm. I was sure we would pay 3ppm as well, but I guess it either slipped through or was put out to print earlier. Not sure, but just an interesting hunch I have. So I am not going to snip all my auto pistols and add a HF to all my dudes, but having a squad still won't be bad even if they shift things around down the road. 3ppm is fair, 1ppm is so idiotic it baffles the mind.

EDIT: Note that BA HF were not increased in CA where the designer note is. I just realized this and checked lol. So now I would say it is less certain but I would still be shocked if they eventually aren't addressed. So it's really up to how much a gambler you are Although I suppose you could magnetize them, but good lord is that a project.

I don't mind if the power is adjusted. As it stands I'm investing otherwise useless warlord traits and relics to get an ability that's really only "too strong" against Knights.

Making any changes just let's me take better options, and I'm 100% okay with that.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea, sorry I missed the magus. It is something that I imagine will be FAQ'd in two weeks though. Auto killing any model is crazy. I wonder how they would balance it if they do, probably put a cap on how many MW you can do. Not that I mind deleting a casellan after shooting it's guns

Considering Eldar soup can do much the same currently with their powers and iirc, IK have a stratagem to cancel all MWs on a 5+ for that phase, I don't see this as something high on the FAQ list.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Here's the thing, nobody HAS to use either stratagem on the unit. The 20 hand flamers is 20 points lol. That's whats interesting, for 1ppm you basically just add another tool to the box. If your opponent is prepared or it isn't the right tool just don't use those stratagems.

I'm not disagreeing. The second block of commentary was meant as a stand-alone thought regarding the stratagem generally, the first bit was just pointing out that the unit can't charge afterwards as was being suggested in the original quote followed by concerns that a 20-strong unit of Acolytes is going to be overkill for the task given.

I'm really happy with the codex

there are a lot of combos easy to get:

-acolyte flamer bomb
-Mental onslought auto kill
-demo charges with bikes hiting at 2+
- a lot of units with easy assault (broodsurge/anointed throng + clamavus + emperor 4-arms)

and best of all there are cp and points for everything!

Where's everyone who was losing their mind and getting pissy over me pointing out how a light vehicle with a low number of shots weapon and 5+ to hit isn't good?
How many ridgerunners are your getting? Your foot taste good?

Units like that will never be good, especially in an army that isn't lacking for ways to be mobile. Really sucks too because the model is very nice looking.

One question, the quad from the bikes, can it carry demolition chargues?

I kind of hope the bikes are worth it at this point and arent overcosted. I have a lot of acolytes with auto pistols and neophyte hybrids... I hope they will see some play as well. I'm sure many former GSC players are on that boat now.

Fragile wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea, sorry I missed the magus. It is something that I imagine will be FAQ'd in two weeks though. Auto killing any model is crazy. I wonder how they would balance it if they do, probably put a cap on how many MW you can do. Not that I mind deleting a casellan after shooting it's guns

Considering Eldar soup can do much the same currently with their powers and iirc, IK have a stratagem to cancel all MWs on a 5+ for that phase, I don't see this as something high on the FAQ list.

Eldar cannot do the same, they can get a nasty mind war off, but nothing close to this deadly, and not nearly as easily or in a TAC list.

That IK strat won't help though, the mortal wounds you inflict are infinite lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Danny slag wrote:
Where's everyone who was losing their mind and getting pissy over me pointing out how a light vehicle with a low number of shots weapon and 5+ to hit isn't good?
How many ridgerunners are your getting? Your foot taste good?

Units like that will never be good, especially in an army that isn't lacking for ways to be mobile. Really sucks too because the model is very nice looking.

As I recall, level heads were asking you to wait for the full story while you were throwing a tantrum. Funny that you accuse those level heads as being emotional.

I'm getting a pair. I don't think they are bad actually. They are definitely niche but having a unit that has a high number of wounds, doesn't degrade and can threaten their lines first turn is something we require. The book didn't really change the mechanics much from post big FAQ 2. You come in turn 2 earliest and you need to board control. The ridgerunner scouts 9" then moves 14" more and can still assault. Further more, it's flare launcher gets a unit of bikes cooking at 20" from your deployment, cast psychic stimulus and you have a decent away team. I think it will be useful to tie down a flank for a turn and force their attention. Will it cause a ton of damage? No, but that has never been the only measure of a units usefulness. At least not beyond a shallow first glance.

The army may not lack mobility overall, but it still certainly is left a bit wanting on the first turn if you don't plan accordingly, especially when going second. Sentinels and/or ridgerunners are still a requirement IMO. They become even more vital in the mirror match. Something that often gets overlooked. This army is going to be popular, it's smart to have a plan to take out other cults.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kgn01 wrote:
I kind of hope the bikes are worth it at this point and arent overcosted. I have a lot of acolytes with auto pistols and neophyte hybrids... I hope they will see some play as well. I'm sure many former GSC players are on that boat now.

Apparently the bikes can take 12 +3 quads in one unit. That's 36 T4 wounds with a -1 to hit. It's 165pts before upgrades. 36 neophytes before upgrades comes to 180. They would also need to be in more then one unit, not saying thats worse just pointing it out. I personally think that's pretty solid. Note that if you use them along side a ridgerunner, you can drive a unit up into cover on an objective and use the strat that gives them the character rule, forcing an opponent to kill the ridgerunner first since with it's scout move it can easily be placed in front.

I think it will take a few games to learn all the tricks. Lets not forget they can deploy underground and also be returned to the shadows.

Oh and I noticed in one of the videos that were reading the profile that only the unit champion has access to the autogun, so no doubling up on shotguns and autoguns.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea, sorry I missed the magus. It is something that I imagine will be FAQ'd in two weeks though. Auto killing any model is crazy. I wonder how they would balance it if they do, probably put a cap on how many MW you can do. Not that I mind deleting a casellan after shooting it's guns

Considering Eldar soup can do much the same currently with their powers and iirc, IK have a stratagem to cancel all MWs on a 5+ for that phase, I don't see this as something high on the FAQ list.

Eldar cannot do the same, they can get a nasty mind war off, but nothing close to this deadly, and not nearly as easily or in a TAC list.

That IK strat won't help though, the mortal wounds you inflict are infinite lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Danny slag wrote:
Where's everyone who was losing their mind and getting pissy over me pointing out how a light vehicle with a low number of shots weapon and 5+ to hit isn't good?
How many ridgerunners are your getting? Your foot taste good?

Units like that will never be good, especially in an army that isn't lacking for ways to be mobile. Really sucks too because the model is very nice looking.

As I recall, level heads were asking you to wait for the full story while you were throwing a tantrum. Funny that you accuse those level heads as being emotional.

I'm getting a pair. I don't think they are bad actually. They are definitely niche but having a unit that has a high number of wounds, doesn't degrade and can threaten their lines first turn is something we require. The book didn't really change the mechanics much from post big FAQ 2. You come in turn 2 earliest and you need to board control. The ridgerunner scouts 9" then moves 14" more and can still assault. Further more, it's flare launcher gets a unit of bikes cooking at 20" from your deployment, cast psychic stimulus and you have a decent away team. I think it will be useful to tie down a flank for a turn and force their attention. Will it cause a ton of damage? No, but that has never been the only measure of a units usefulness. At least not beyond a shallow first glance.

The army may not lack mobility overall, but it still certainly is left a bit wanting on the first turn if you don't plan accordingly, especially when going second. Sentinels and/or ridgerunners are still a requirement IMO. They become even more vital in the mirror match. Something that often gets overlooked. This army is going to be popular, it's smart to have a plan to take out other cults.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kgn01 wrote:
I kind of hope the bikes are worth it at this point and arent overcosted. I have a lot of acolytes with auto pistols and neophyte hybrids... I hope they will see some play as well. I'm sure many former GSC players are on that boat now.

Apparently the bikes can take 12 +3 quads in one unit. That's 36 T4 wounds with a -1 to hit. It's 165pts before upgrades. 36 neophytes before upgrades comes to 180. They would also need to be in more then one unit, not saying thats worse just pointing it out. I personally think that's pretty solid. Note that if you use them along side a ridgerunner, you can drive a unit up into cover on an objective and use the strat that gives them the character rule, forcing an opponent to kill the ridgerunner first since with it's scout move it can easily be placed in front.

I think it will take a few games to learn all the tricks. Lets not forget they can deploy underground and also be returned to the shadows.

Oh and I noticed in one of the videos that were reading the profile that only the unit champion has access to the autogun, so no doubling up on shotguns and autoguns.

False, you can have a Biker with both Autogun and Shotgun as you MUST take 2 different weapons from Atalan Jackal Weapons List

Only the atalan champion can have an autogun though, so he is right.

I think there is a mistake from the wording of the ridgerunner scout rule. It sounds like you will not be able to use a blip marker to hide it and than use the scout move. In other words it has to start on the table.

I don't think than autogun + shotgun is that outlandish as intentional. For one, it would look totally sweet. For two, a lot of bikes are either equipped with twin-linked ranged weapons; tomb blades, wind runners, CSM/SM bikes. It's pretty reasonable in my mind to give a shotgun and an autogun.