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 Red Corsair wrote:
I love how you literally had to avoid all of causalis and my own posts regarding it's viability just to support your confirmation bias.

It has some really solid utility.

Instead of insulting anyone that disagrees with your position, try polite debate.

Pointing out all the reasons why it's ineffective is impolite? pointing out all the ways it's ineffective is 'throwing a fit." Sounds like you're just upset by anything that doesn't agree with you and rather than be able to debate those points you just keep asserting that it's unacceptable behavior to disagree with you and explain why you're wrong.

There's nothing the ridgerunner does that something else in the army doesn't do better and cheaper. It has no actual use in the army. spending 68 points to maybe do a wound or 2 to a vehicle, maybe, isn't a very good use of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Pariarch doesn't need unquestioning loyalty as the troops around him will have it, no?

Jackals weapon options make sense, just can't take the weapons the rules on the model indicated.

Scout with ambush is hilarious, and I have no idea.

I'm curious to see your overall opinion post LVO, my friend. Genuinely so.

I think so but don't know. Need it FAQ

Jackals I think you are right but I am kind of hoping autoguns and shotguns are an option otherwise you will never see them more than a squad of 5.

Patriarch isn't supposed to tank shots for other characters, I think it was an intentional design choice since having UL yourself isn't a requirement for benefiting from it. Not unless they changed the rule from it's previous iteration.

Jackals IMO don't need the double gun loadout to be good, in fact it would be worse in certain scenarios. Your going to want to use these for a turn 1 assault on screens which means they need to advance, so I would rather take the knife and get the extra attack which benefits more from powers anyway. The shotgun can still be fired however. I haven't settled on which cult does them best, I am juggling between rusted claw and twisted helix.

Helix gets the +2 advance and the added S, but odds are I want to cast MFB on them anyway and most screens don't require s5. So I am then looking at rusted claw since they can advance and fire those shotguns first at no penalty and have more durability. I'll probably go rusted claw for sure if/when I take other 5 man demo units as well since that strat they have is insane.

I'm not positive, but doesn't the rusted claw only negate the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, so it wouldn't have any effect on the shotguns? That's why i'm going twisted helix. Granted the bikes are a pretty sub par choice in general. I've never wanted fast assaulting guardsman, but the models look too nice to not use them so i'm going to take them even though they're not very good at anything other than the grenade spam trick.

Rusted claw also gives infantry and bikes +1 save against weapons with a 0 and 1 as well as shooting assault weapons without penalty for bikes.

Danny slag wrote:


I'm not positive, but doesn't the rusted claw only negate the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, so it wouldn't have any effect on the shotguns? That's why i'm going twisted helix. Granted the bikes are a pretty sub par choice in general. I've never wanted fast assaulting guardsman, but the models look too nice to not use them so i'm going to take them even though they're not very good at anything other than the grenade spam trick.

You've got confused there. Bladed cog is the ignore penalty for heavy weapons (and the 6++). Rusted claw is +1 armour Vs ap0 and ap-1, and bikes get to ignore -1 for assault weapons.

 Kapitan Montag wrote:

Danny slag wrote:


I'm not positive, but doesn't the rusted claw only negate the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, so it wouldn't have any effect on the shotguns? That's why i'm going twisted helix. Granted the bikes are a pretty sub par choice in general. I've never wanted fast assaulting guardsman, but the models look too nice to not use them so i'm going to take them even though they're not very good at anything other than the grenade spam trick.

You've got confused there. Bladed cog is the ignore penalty for heavy weapons (and the 6++). Rusted claw is +1 armour Vs ap0 and ap-1, and bikes get to ignore -1 for assault weapons.

And ignore - 1 for heavy weapons for bikes.

Rusted claw bikes ignore the penalty for 1. advancing and firing assault and 2. moving and firing heavy (so Quad Stubbers and HMLs)

Danny slag wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I love how you literally had to avoid all of causalis and my own posts regarding it's viability just to support your confirmation bias.

It has some really solid utility.

Instead of insulting anyone that disagrees with your position, try polite debate.

Pointing out all the reasons why it's ineffective is impolite? pointing out all the ways it's ineffective is 'throwing a fit." Sounds like you're just upset by anything that doesn't agree with you and rather than be able to debate those points you just keep asserting that it's unacceptable behavior to disagree with you and explain why you're wrong.

There's nothing the ridgerunner does that something else in the army doesn't do better and cheaper. It has no actual use in the army. spending 68 points to maybe do a wound or 2 to a vehicle, maybe, isn't a very good use of points.

Find me a scouting AT vehicle for cheaper... Edit: with similar output because I know a single sentinel is cheaper

The impolite part was suggesting anyone with a view counter to yours must be bad at the game and clueless. Trying to paint my as the emotional dude that avoids debate is so backwards it genuinely made me laugh, so thanks. 9/10 times I am the guy explaining how units people disregard can be used effectively. Or have you skipped by the last 3 pages of constructive discussion about the bikes and buggy?

I am dismayed to see this tactic thread offer little in the way of actual tactics and seems to be more about discussing if unit x is worth it points etc. So to hopefully get things moving in a different direction I bring you my very first bat rep with the new codex (proxying a few of the new units).

I had 3 battalions: 2x Rusted Claw, 1x 4AE

All my Neophytes were Rusted Claw, all my Acolytes 4AE.

Played against Tyranids. Turns out my Cultists didn't like the prospect of being consumed for their biomass. Ungreatful bunch. Must be the human parts inside of them. Anyway.

Turn 1

I used the ambush tokens which was a nice tactical advantage as I could set up my units in such a way that my HML (on the Ridgerunner) and my Lascannons in my Brood Brother squads could see his Exocrine whilst I could also hide/cover my vehicles form his AT shooting. However, I have to say that it is a bit difficult to remember where you wanted to place what unit and that it also slows the game down a bunch.

He got first turn. Blew up my Rockgrinder. Patriarch and Magus inside stumbled out of the wreck. His Genestealers advanced into a ruin, looking hungrily at my Truck (2x ML and 2x GLs inside). We played a mission form CA 2018. The one with the data terminals. Very fun! He also advanced a horde of shooty Gants with their Tervigon onto the middle objective on the board, claiming it.

My turn! My Jackal Alphus can't see his Exocrine so she nominates the Tervigon as her target. I am unsure if Neophytes inside of Trucks benefit from her buff since they aren't technicaly on the board. Anyway, the new Mining Lasers are sooo much better. Killed the Tervigon (took 1 Lascannon, 2 MLs and a HML which shot and hit 2 times). Moved my min sized Bike squad (heavy flamer on the quad and all with Demo Charges of course) into position, out of reach of his advancing Genestealers but near enough that they would be able to shoot/charge them next turn if necessary.

My obj camping Stubber Neophyte squads were worth their weight in gold. Rusted Claw makes them absurdly tough for their point costs! And they can make their points back by killing just a few Genestealers etc. (only 60 points of a squad with stubbers and grenade launchers).

End of the Turn he scored 4 points from holding objectives and 1 for first strike. I scored 2 from objs and 1 from first strike. 5-3 for the Nids.

Turn 2

I knew this would be the big turn of the game. I just had to endure and hope there would be enough left standing. He destroyed on of my 2 Trucks, exposing the Neophyte squad inside. The fleshy drop pod slammed down and regurgitated a Maleceptor. Tough 8 with a 4++. Yikes! His Mawloc also popped up in my line. Doing almost no damage but my Brood Brothers were shaking in their boots, staring down that beast. His Genestealers luckily whiffed their charge.

My turn. Oh boy, that wasn't a lot of damage. Time to make those big bugs bleed! My Patriarch runs over to the Mawloc. Gave him the Crouchling, the +1 a s WT and the Magus (via stratagem) the generic +1LD in 6" trait. Bumping my Patriarch up to LD 11. Turns out that big monster is only LD 7. Mwahahah! Mental Onslaught goes off and I strip 5 wounds off of the Mawloc , only ending the mortal wound avalanche because I roll poorly and he rolls a luck 6. Smite it for another 3 damage for good measure.

Alphus points out that there is a big ugly bug with way too many brains in her way. Roger boss! My Bikes drive up, I pop the stratagem for more grenades and the demolition drive-by. 5D6 S8 AP-3 D3 damage explosives smash into the ugly thing. The 4++ kept it from dying but it took 9 wounds. My bikes drive away, screening my second Truck from his advancing Warriors. Damn they are useful! They are a one trick pony of course but they are a nice counter charge/blast unit to have. Mining Lasers and stuff bring it down.

My 20 Shotgun/Flamer Neophytes pop up 3" away (Stratagem) from his Broodlord and Stealers. Gunslinger behind them. He wounds a whole lot of Stealers but their 5++ and Katalyst see only 5 of them die. But the Boomsticks go to work. All Stealers dead. Ash would be proud!

In his deployment zone my Primus pops up with 10 Acos (3x Saws, 1x Drill, Banner, all Hand Flamers). He nominates his gloryfied artillery piece. I pay 3CP to let the Acos move D6". MFW I roll a 6. Industrial mining things happen and the Exocrine is no more. On his other flank his squad of warriors is visited by a Clamavus, Iconward (Broodsurge WT) and another squad of 10 Acos (4x Saws, Banner). They easily make that 7" charge (+1 for Clamavus, +1 for Cult Creed). All four Warriors die. Suddenly I hold 4 objectives. One might say it is all going according to the Cults plan!

Turn 3

He has almost no shooting left. No casualties in that phase! My squads of Acolytes get charged by his Swarmtyrant and some Warriors. I spend 2 CPs to intervene and the Tyrant is cleft in twaine. Shame, I still had a Sanctus with the dagger of swift sacrifice in reserve. Oh well. He came out the next turn, used his free D6" move and annihilated his Warrior Prime. At that point he conceded as I had almost tabled him. I lost all of my Goliaths (as almost every game) but I had waaaay more Neophytes left. And for the first time all those Mining Laser actually did stuff!

Bikes fill brigades. Better than sentinels because lascannons have nothing to target in our army as is so why give them a freebie?

If you’re not taking a brigade, I find it much more difficult to need 1 attack bikers for their CC prowess or for their sprinkle of shooting. They just don’t rate well enough for me as a harassment unit. They do score objectives and -1 to hit is nice don’t get me wrong. But our army just has so many great stratagems that I feel you really need to start the game with as much CP as possible. I’m making brigade + battalion + 4AE extra CP trait + Nexos regen lists and it’s not enough CP

Would a pure army of acolyte hybrids be good? 200 of them are only 1400 points, and you can run half of them on ambush, and the other running down the board. ORKISH style

It's just too boring.

200 acolytes? Oof ouch my wallet.
Remember acolytes die to a stiff breeze...

C4790M wrote:

Remember acolytes die to a stiff breeze...

the same as the neophytes, for only 2 points more, a lot a lot more dangerous.


I'm proposing this because I see that almost everyone is using twisted helix. Even with neophytes.
To shoot at 5+, directly use hybrids better not?

How many are going to use the Bloodcoven Staratagem?

Anyone think it is any good?

Also how many relic do you think people will use?


I feel 3 relic's are going to be common. These are some of the best i have seen.

i am running 3 almost all the time.

Was curious on getting some help forming something decent out of what my girl has so far:

20 Neophytes
10 Now Brood Brothers infantry with Autogun Heavy Team
10 Acolytes
5 Aberrents
An anointed one
Magus
Primus
Patriarch (2 familiars)
Rockgrinder
Leman Russ
Ironclad
30ish Genestealers

She has a large collection of Nids so far. I'd say we have enough for supporting options. Was hoping on what we should focus on buying next with the new codex out. Was definitely picking up bikes.

luke1705 wrote:Bikes fill brigades. Better than sentinels because lascannons have nothing to target in our army as is so why give them a freebie?

If you’re not taking a brigade, I find it much more difficult to need 1 attack bikers for their CC prowess or for their sprinkle of shooting. They just don’t rate well enough for me as a harassment unit. They do score objectives and -1 to hit is nice don’t get me wrong. But our army just has so many great stratagems that I feel you really need to start the game with as much CP as possible. I’m making brigade + battalion + 4AE extra CP trait + Nexos regen lists and it’s not enough CP

I think the main draw with the bikes is that they are an "anvil" unit for relatively cheap. They aren't the most appealing target to shoot at due to the -1 to hit and low offense (scans demo-charges) but they are fast enough that they can meet up with the tunneling units without needing to ambush themselves.

They should be very good for blocking lanes of retreat for the melee units. Any time you can prevent a foe from simply falling back from melee threats is a good day.

zamerion wrote:Would a pure army of acolyte hybrids be good? 200 of them are only 1400 points, and you can run half of them on ambush, and the other running down the board. ORKISH style

Apart from the obscene cost of that many acolytes (USD $1600 before tax), I think at that point you will probably end up with diminishing returns. Acolytes hit hard for troops, but having so many risks running into the issue of models not being able to attack due to the amount of space they take up relative to the limited amount of space available to pile into combat. I understand that the sheer number of models provides a bit of cushioning against attrition, but I'd have to question if it wouldn't be wiser to just use Neophytes or Brood Brothers to act as the bullet catchers and have Acolytes safely tunnel or ride in.

My general experience with the index version is that GSC lists have two components, the "anvil" units (in the index this consisted of allies, neophytes, and vehicles) and the "hammer" units (Acolytes, 'stealers, Aberrants). You really need a balance of both to be effective. Taking only hammers results in trouble with attrition (the "running out of steam" issue often noted in battle reports) while taking too many anvils means not enough offense to neutralize key enemy threats before they do too much damage. I'm fairly confident this will still be so with the codex, albeit there is now some options that overlap the two aspects (Aberrants being a tanky "hammer" or the Jackals with demo charges being an "anvil" that can act as a 1-turn hammer).

"I am dismayed to see this tactic thread offer little in the way of actual tactics and seems to be more about discussing if unit x is worth it points etc. So to hopefully get things moving in a different direction I bring you my very first bat rep with the new codex"

Maybe it's because he codex isn't in most people's hands and relying solely off of leaks and youtube videos don't exactly set people up for accurate testing you booger

I think if you are going to run that sort of horde Tyranids are better. You can get 200+ devourer 'gaunts and still have points for Neurothropes and even a Malenthrope. 200 -1 to hit 6++ bodies is a lot to get past.

More reasonably, I expect that a 'gaunt horde can find a place to splash 4 armed emperor to get vect and CP regen. Or that an aberrant hammer build could find a use for a termagant anvil.

What are people’s thoughts on the best way to plug in a Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor detachment in, right now? It is going to be 100% an auto-include imo, going forward.

Would you run it as a cheap Supreme Command detachment or just drop in a min Battalion?

shadowfinder wrote:
How many are going to use the Bloodcoven Staratagem?

Anyone think it is any good?

Also how many relic do you think people will use?


I feel 3 relic's are going to be common. These are some of the best i have seen.

i am running 3 almost all the time.

I would use it very often, because it is super cool. The partriarch will probably get +1S +1 A, the Primus +3 inch to aura and the Magus maybe even the rusted claw WL trait with -1ap on a melee roll of 6.

Thanks for the battle report Causalis. Interesting read. Would you like to share an overview of your list?

With regards to the Index Chimera being able to transport anything and the Codex Chimera being able to load Broodbrothers only; isn’t there a flow-chart that allows options from the Index that are missing in the Codex?

 Jrandom wrote:
With regards to the Index Chimera being able to transport anything and the Codex Chimera being able to load Broodbrothers only; isn’t their a flow-chart that allows options from the Index that are missing in the Codex?

I doubt it.

If the chimera datasheets has got different names, like "Brood Brother Chimera" in the codex and "Cult Chimera" in the index, you might be able to argue this case. But then you would at least have to pay the old points cost for the chimera.

But else the flowchart is for wargear options. Transport rules are definitely not wargear.


Check last page of this designers commentary.
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Mellon wrote:

 Jrandom wrote:
With regards to the Index Chimera being able to transport anything and the Codex Chimera being able to load Broodbrothers only; isn’t there a flow-chart that allows options from the Index that are missing in the Codex?

I doubt it.

If the chimera datasheets has got different names, like "Brood Brother Chimera" in the codex and "Cult Chimera" in the index, you might be able to argue this case. But then you would at least have to pay the old points cost for the chimera.

But else the flowchart is for wargear options. Transport rules are definitely not wargear.


Check last page of this designers commentary.
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Thank you for that, it does look like a possibility if the names are different. I guess it will have to wait until we get the book.

As far as tactics goes, I think that there could be some play with Broodbrother Crusaders. For 150pts you can get a 10 man unit, that could have a 2++ (when being buffed by Psychic Barrier,) and be able to fight 3x per turn (Acts of Faith + Fix Bayonets!) without spending any CPs. They would be quite the chaff lawnmower.

 Jrandom wrote:

Mellon wrote:

 Jrandom wrote:
With regards to the Index Chimera being able to transport anything and the Codex Chimera being able to load Broodbrothers only; isn’t there a flow-chart that allows options from the Index that are missing in the Codex?

I doubt it.

If the chimera datasheets has got different names, like "Brood Brother Chimera" in the codex and "Cult Chimera" in the index, you might be able to argue this case. But then you would at least have to pay the old points cost for the chimera.

But else the flowchart is for wargear options. Transport rules are definitely not wargear.


Check last page of this designers commentary.
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Thank you for that, it does look like a possibility if the names are different. I guess it will have to wait until we get the book.

As far as tactics goes, I think that there could be some play with Broodbrother Crusaders. For 150pts you can get a 10 man unit, that could have a 2++ (when being buffed by Psychic Barrier,) and be able to fight 3x per turn (Acts of Faith + Fix Bayonets!) without spending any CPs. They would be quite the chaff lawnmower.

I'm pumping the brakes on anything brood bros until I see if the rumor that they get no orders at all pans out. That seems very likely to me given how wacky orderable bullgryns/crusaders/etc could possibly be. But, TBH, if that goes through I"m not seeing much that you'd ever want out of brood bros in a competitive list.

-You'd get nerfed infantry squads who can't get orders. At that point I'd go neophytes just to get webbers and CA.

-You'd get nerfed tank commanders who don't reroll 1s. Maybe still worth it? IDK.

-You'd get nerfed basilisks/artillery with no catachan doctrine and no Harker

The only things I can see going into brood brothers for would be like a superheavy with a couple psykers, or maybe a wyvern or something. Beyond the obvious Sentinels/Mortar Teams to fill brigade slots in your GSC detachments.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Jrandom wrote:

Mellon wrote:

 Jrandom wrote:
With regards to the Index Chimera being able to transport anything and the Codex Chimera being able to load Broodbrothers only; isn’t there a flow-chart that allows options from the Index that are missing in the Codex?

Check last page of this designers commentary.
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

The only things I can see going into brood brothers for would be like a superheavy with a couple psykers, or maybe a wyvern or something. Beyond the obvious Sentinels/Mortar Teams to fill brigade slots in your GSC detachments.

Will Sentinels/Mortar Teams be possible to take as part of a GSC detachment then ? I thought it was no longer possible (or in other words, "brood bro only"...)

the_scotsman wrote:

I'm pumping the brakes on anything brood bros until I see if the rumor that they get no orders at all pans out. That seems very likely to me given how wacky orderable bullgryns/crusaders/etc could possibly be. But, TBH, if that goes through I"m not seeing much that you'd ever want out of brood bros in a competitive list.

This is the wording on the thing. It says orders but it seems to be in the context of "regimental specific".


I'm wondering if we'll see an updated Guard FAQ/Errata restricting Orders to units with Vox-Casters...which would be a fairly big Guard nerf IMO.

I would say that the wording of the Broodbrothers restricts them from getting access to Regimental Orders, not orders in general.

Assuming that GW doesn’t want players giving orders to the non-regimental units (but who now have the Broodbrother keyword,) I say that you would want to take several IG Commanders, so that you would be able to give orders to the Broodbrother units that were bought inside of the GSC.

Being able to give orders to the Ogryns, Ratlings, Crusaders, and other non-regimental units does seem reasonable, since they are under a high level of mind-control, but I do understand peoples hesitations in this regard.

I don’t think that GSC will be toppling the Ynari or other top-tier factions, to become the top competitive army. So why worry so much? They should have a lot of synergy with the Imperial Guard, even more so then with the Tyranids (who are just scooping them up by the time they get to planet fall.)

 Jrandom wrote:
I would say that the wording of the Broodbrothers restricts them from getting access to Regimental Orders, not orders in general.

Assuming that GW doesn’t want players giving orders to the non-regimental units (but who now have the Broodbrother keyword,) I say that you would want to take several IG Commanders, so that you would be able to give orders to the Broodbrother units that were bought inside of the GSC.

You act like someone couldn't just take a Supreme Command Detachment and do it with minimal CP loss, if that's their goal.

SCD:
3 Company Commanders
Elites seasoned to taste(Platoon Commanders, Ogryn/Bullgryn, whatever)
Hell you could throw in a Superheavy if you wanted to.

Being able to give orders to the Ogryns, Ratlings, Crusaders, and other non-regimental units does seem reasonable, since they are under a high level of mind-control, but I do understand peoples hesitations in this regard.

No, it really doesn't seem reasonable. That's the whole reason why they aren't <Regiment> units to begin with. And that also includes Scions--a unit specifically given its own set of static keywords to mandate that you have to devote an HQ specifically to them.

I don’t think that GSC will be toppling the Ynari or other top-tier factions, to become the top competitive army. So why worry so much? They should have a lot of synergy with the Imperial Guard, even more so then with the Tyranids (who are just scooping them up by the time they get to planet fall.)

You know who else should have a lot of synergy with the Imperial Guard?

The Imperial Guard.

Like I said though, it makes me wondering if we'll see an updated FAQ/Errata...but at the same time I'm starting to think no we won't.

addnid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Jrandom wrote:

Mellon wrote:

 Jrandom wrote:
With regards to the Index Chimera being able to transport anything and the Codex Chimera being able to load Broodbrothers only; isn’t there a flow-chart that allows options from the Index that are missing in the Codex?

Check last page of this designers commentary.
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

The only things I can see going into brood brothers for would be like a superheavy with a couple psykers, or maybe a wyvern or something. Beyond the obvious Sentinels/Mortar Teams to fill brigade slots in your GSC detachments.

Will Sentinels/Mortar Teams be possible to take as part of a GSC detachment then ? I thought it was no longer possible (or in other words, "brood bro only"...)

A few units are available both in the GSC codex and as an allied AM brood brothers detachment. Heavy weapon squad, basic infantry squad, both types of sentinel, chimera, leman russ (but GSC detachments cannot take the "advanced variants" that are built from the LR demolisher box). If you take these from the GSC codex, they become part of a GSC detachment. They will not benefit from the Cult Traits, but they does not break them either (like gretchin works for orks).

Everyone is talking about mortar teams for HWT, like guard players usually do for brigades. I get it, they are cheap and can stay behind LOS blocking terrain.
But I think you can make certain points for using other heavy weapons in a GSC armies instead, e.g. lasercannons.

1.) You can use blip markers to place HWT! This allows for an amazing adaptation on the enemy deployment. For example it will never happen that your enemy can hide vehicles efficiently from your AT weapons.

2.) GSC are lacking ranged AT weapons in general. They could need the lascannon HWT much more than AM do.