Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Since Knights are making everyone sad, GW gave GSC the ability to kill a knight in a single turn using four models, three non-BRB rule books, two 18" range psychic powers and a partridge in a pear tree single Command Point!

Step 1: Take a GSC Detachment with a Patriarch. Take the Mental Onslaught power and give him the Inspiring Leader warlord trait from the BRB.
Step 2: Also include a Clamavus and an Acolyte Iconward.
Step 3: Make it a "Deliverance Broodsurge" detachment from Vigilus Defiant.
Step 4: Give your Acolyte Iconward the "Vial of the Grandsire's Blood" relic from Vigilus Defiant.
Step 5: Include a Brood Brothers detachment with either an Astropath or Primaris Psyker. Give them the "Terrifying Visions" power.
Step 6: Somehow get both psykers within 18" of a Knight (or any other Ld9 or below model) and successfully cast Terrifying Visions, followed by Mental Onslaught.

That model now has no choice but to die horribly. Your Patriarch is now Leadership 13, which means the minimum roll you can get is 13+1=14 for your Mental Onslaught, while the maximum the enemy model can generate is 9-2+6=13.

That means that Knight Castellan with 28 wounds just melts into a pile of goo.

If you can somehow include a Tyranid Detachment and use "The Horror", or include a Locus you can delete any Ld 10 unit in the game, including a Warlord Battle Titan with 70 wounds (Void Shields do nothing because the power only stops if "you fail to inflict 1 mortal wound by having a score higher than your opponent’s."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 UncleJetMints wrote:
Ah ok I thought maybe it also replace the instance of <regiment> in the voice of command ability with brood brothers as well.

Ya know you might be right there actually, it replaces all instances so it doesn't actually matter that Brood Brother isn't a regiment, it still replaces it on the Orders rule. I concede the point.

Hey there guys,

I've been looking at the codex through the shooty lens (I know, not the best angle but I've seen I'm not alone), I tend to like mid-range firepower mobile/mech stuff (think Sisters/Tau playstyle). I'd like to limit the CC elements where possible, as well as the Nid side, think early-stage cult or civilian/PDF rebellion more than full-blown infestation. For those interested, what do you thinks are the tools? So far I see:

Rusted Claw detachment for:
- Neophytes with Autoguns/GL/Stubbers
- Bikes/quads
- Jackal Alphus
- Acolytes with HF/Saws (Goliath? Underground?)

Bladed Cog detachment for:
- Neophytes in Goliath with Autoguns/GL/Mining Lasers
- Shotgun/Webbers/Seismic Canons. (Goliath? Underground?)
- Sanctus with Sniper Rifle

AM detachment for:
- Scions
- Taurox

As I am a sucker for relic shooty weapons / WLTs, I thought

- Gift from Beyond is quite obvious on either an Alphus or a Sanctus.

- Opressor's Bane: instinctively you look at a Kelermorph but he has the native ability and already good guns. If you think in marginal gains, it's a waste. I think the best way to use it is to give it to a guy with a regular autopistol, that won't be far from the fight so that you get a budget Kelermorph on top of those allowed in your detachments. I'm thinking Clamavus or Iconward. Thoughts?

- Kelermorph with the Twisted Helix Warlord Trait. +1D benefit is maximized the more shots your character has... probably overkill but can be hilarious. Probably sub-par as your WLT is surely better used elsewhere but in non-comp settings it could be fun. It would mean sacrificing either the AM detachment or having to make a choice between Rusted Claw and Bladed Cog. I'm really drawn to mobile heavy weapons but I feel on the whole Rusted Claw gives more benefits.

 UncleJetMints wrote:
Ah ok I thought maybe it also replace the instance of <regiment> in the voice of command ability with brood brothers as well.

So this is the keyword rule:

These ASTRA MILITARUM Detachments are then known as BROOD BROTHERS Detachments, and every unit in them that has the<REGIMENT> or MILITARUM TEMPESTUS keyword must replace it in every instance on its datasheet with BROOD BROTHERS (if a unit does not have either of these keywords,it simply gains the BROOD BROTHERS keyword).

Does Voice of Command count as being on the datasheet? I mean it is listed on it as a reference to the ability, so I'd assume it was still counted as being on it, which would change the description of Voice of Command on those units to:

Orders may only be issued to INFANTRY units within 6" of this unit that have the same <REGIMENT> BROOD BROTHERS keyword as this unit.

No way to know for sure until the FAQ drops, but it is fun to speculate! The only case I can find that might support this is the Master of Ordanance, which has an ability with the <REGIMENT> keyword that would be changed to Brood Brothers so that it affects the vehicles:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Since Knights are making everyone sad, GW gave GSC the ability to kill a knight in a single turn using four models, three non-BRB rule books, two 18" range psychic powers and a partridge in a pear tree single Command Point!

Step 1: Take a GSC Detachment with a Patriarch. Take the Mental Onslaught power and give him the Inspiring Leader warlord trait from the BRB.
Step 2: Also include a Clamavus and an Acolyte Iconward.
Step 3: Make it a "Deliverance Broodsurge" detachment from Vigilus Defiant.
Step 4: Give your Acolyte Iconward the "Vial of the Grandsire's Blood" relic from Vigilus Defiant.
Step 5: Include a Brood Brothers detachment with either an Astropath or Primaris Psyker. Give them the "Terrifying Visions" power.
Step 6: Somehow get both psykers within 18" of a Knight (or any other Ld9 or below model) and successfully cast Terrifying Visions, followed by Mental Onslaught.

That model now has no choice but to die horribly. Your Patriarch is now Leadership 13, which means the minimum roll you can get is 13+1=14 for your Mental Onslaught, while the maximum the enemy model can generate is 9-2+6=13.

That means that Knight Castellan with 28 wounds just melts into a pile of goo.

If you can somehow include a Tyranid Detachment and use "The Horror", or include a Locus you can delete any Ld 10 unit in the game, including a Warlord Battle Titan with 70 wounds (Void Shields do nothing because the power only stops if "you fail to inflict 1 mortal wound by having a score higher than your opponent’s."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 UncleJetMints wrote:
Ah ok I thought maybe it also replace the instance of <regiment> in the voice of command ability with brood brothers as well.

Ya know you might be right there actually, it replaces all instances so it doesn't actually matter that Brood Brother isn't a regiment, it still replaces it on the Orders rule. I concede the point.

I would likely use a tyranid detachment with a nerothrope and horror over the AM Psyker with terifying visions. It's 7diff wile horror is only 6 and the nero can reroll 1's. Fot it to stop once started opp needs a 6 after you roll a 1 and worst case senerio you can use a cp reroll to keep it going until the unit is dead barring the wrath of the dice gods.

I’m not even gonna bother theorycrafting the best way to kill stuff with mental onslaught. That thing is getting errata’d for sure, and I’d gain no satisfaction from erasing things with it in the meantime.

On the matter of some actual shenanigans, the drill gantry is an excellent way to put a couple units out of melee range. You could fill each floor with a heavy weapons team and nothing could touch them.

This may have been pointed out already, but a Twisted Helix Warlord Patriarch with the Twisted Helix trait and Might from the Beyond cast hits for 7 S7 D3+1 damage swings that do 4 damage on the rend. Until they FAQ Brood Coven to not be able to generate traits from other Cults you can use it to give a C4AE Magus Inscrutable Cunning (making the Brood Coven free at worst) and buff the Twisted Helix Primus that you already want to take to help your Aberants with Biomorph Adaption (+1A +1S). The reverse is also interesting-S8 A8 Patriarch and D2 Bonesword/Toxin Injector on the Primus.

Right now I'm thinking a small C4AE battalion with Magus, Iconward, and some Neophytes, a Twisted Helix Aberant bomb using hammers, Patrarch, Primus, Clamvus, and Nexos, and a Hive Fleet Kronos battalion.

C4AE brings Vect, and summoning from the Magus. Twisted Helix brings the heavy punch from the Aberants, CP regen, and LD 11 Patriarch Mental Onslaught. Kronos opens up the Horror and has the spell deny strat.

babelfish wrote:
This may have been pointed out already, but a Twisted Helix Warlord Patriarch with the Twisted Helix trait and Might from the Beyond cast hits for 7 S7 D3+1 damage swings that do 4 damage on the rend. Until they FAQ Brood Coven to not be able to generate traits from other Cults you can use it to give a C4AE Magus Inscrutable Cunning (making the Brood Coven free at worst) and buff the Twisted Helix Primus that you already want to take to help your Aberants with Biomorph Adaption (+1A +1S). The reverse is also interesting-S8 A8 Patriarch and D2 Bonesword/Toxin Injector on the Primus.

Isn't the patriarch a genestealer unit and therefore will not benefit from creed bonus?

Yes. I think he means the Twisted Helix Warlord Trait.

It is actually really easy to turn a Primus into a discount Patriarch.

Take a Twisted Helix Cult Creed for +1 strength. Then via the Broodcoven stratagem take the Biomorph Adaptation for another +1 strength and +1 attacks. You can then give the him the Sword of the Void's Eye which adds another +2 strength and allows rerolls to hit and wound.

End result = 5 strength 8 attacks hitting on 2s rerolling all hits and wounds at AP-2 d3 Damage. Not bad for a 75 point model.

This allows you to still put the Elixir of the Prime Specimen on the Patriarch. You can still Might From Beyond him too as well as give another close combat warlord trait like Shadow Stalker or Bio-Alchemist.

Allows you to get 2 very good close combat characters for 200 points

Yeah, bare freaking minimum Mental Onslaught needs to get changed to unmodified LD, if not also restricted to Infantry or Character like Mind War.

This codex has a lot to FAQ. I would again encourage everyone to not get lost in the sauce of busted brood brother combos, busted Locus "Cultroic Genetervention" strats, and busted Onslaught combos before we have confirmation that any of that gak is actively sticking around.

GW tried to build something on the foundation of the guard codex, which is the rules equivalent of trying to build a 70 story high rise on grahm crackers held together with bubblegum. It didn't work out.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, bare freaking minimum Mental Onslaught needs to get changed to unmodified LD, if not also restricted to Infantry or Character like Mind War.

This codex has a lot to FAQ. I would again encourage everyone to not get lost in the sauce of busted brood brother combos, busted Locus "Cultroic Genetervention" strats, and busted Onslaught combos before we have confirmation that any of that gak is actively sticking around.

GW tried to build something on the foundation of the guard codex, which is the rules equivalent of trying to build a 70 story high rise on grahm crackers held together with bubblegum. It didn't work out.

"Unmodified LD" sure, that power would suck ASS in that case. You're stacking 3+ auras and MULTIPLE psychic powers to have such an effect, it's the BARE MINIMUM to have the Mental Onslaught power itself DO SOMETHING with that HUGE support you're giving it

When is the FAQ supposed to hit?

KurtAngle2 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, bare freaking minimum Mental Onslaught needs to get changed to unmodified LD, if not also restricted to Infantry or Character like Mind War.

This codex has a lot to FAQ. I would again encourage everyone to not get lost in the sauce of busted brood brother combos, busted Locus "Cultroic Genetervention" strats, and busted Onslaught combos before we have confirmation that any of that gak is actively sticking around.

GW tried to build something on the foundation of the guard codex, which is the rules equivalent of trying to build a 70 story high rise on grahm crackers held together with bubblegum. It didn't work out.

"Unmodified LD" sure, that power would suck ASS in that case. You're stacking 3+ auras and MULTIPLE psychic powers to have such an effect, it's the BARE MINIMUM to have the Mental Onslaught power itself DO SOMETHING with that HUGE support you're giving it

it's really not that huge at all. The only thing that isn't great in its own right is like LD warlord trait/reloc shut, and mostly only for opportunity cost, it doesn't actually cost you anything massive if you choose to go for it. Let's not over indulge ourselves here it's a pretty easy set up

KurtAngle2 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, bare freaking minimum Mental Onslaught needs to get changed to unmodified LD, if not also restricted to Infantry or Character like Mind War.

This codex has a lot to FAQ. I would again encourage everyone to not get lost in the sauce of busted brood brother combos, busted Locus "Cultroic Genetervention" strats, and busted Onslaught combos before we have confirmation that any of that gak is actively sticking around.

GW tried to build something on the foundation of the guard codex, which is the rules equivalent of trying to build a 70 story high rise on grahm crackers held together with bubblegum. It didn't work out.

"Unmodified LD" sure, that power would suck ASS in that case. You're stacking 3+ auras and MULTIPLE psychic powers to have such an effect, it's the BARE MINIMUM to have the Mental Onslaught power itself DO SOMETHING with that HUGE support you're giving it

No, I really don't think it would.

Sure, you need to get to a +5 difference for it to literally fething oneshot something with zero odds of failure. But you're looking at what's needed to get a LD9 target vs a LD10 target to +5 (which, by the way, is only "multiple" psychic powers if you mean "two, including the mental onslaught cast" and if by "3+" you mean "again, two.")

This is a power that works on any model. Which includes any vehicle. Most vehicles, because they don't need LD, have pretty low LD - poking through my indexes most vehicles are at LD7, the only ones that get up to 9 are superheavies and character vheicles like tank commanders.

MO is a WC6 power with a long range and no "you must be closest" restriction. Other direct damage powers with that kind of range and flexibility do 1.5-2 mortal wounds on average. Only highly restricted powers or highly expensive powers do 3-5 MWs on average.

With a +3 advantage, which is a patriarch with zero support against an average guard, tau, eldar, etc vehicle, you have a 1/6 chance of failure. That's 4-5 mortal wounds on average, which is ABSURD on a power that's not restricted by target type, WC6, with a long range and no "closest model" restriction. Absolute best in class direct damage power. With a +2 advantage (patriarch vs most marine vehicles, admech vehicles, necron vehicles) you're looking at a 10/36 chance of failure, which averages around 2-3 mortal wounds - still solidly better than most direct damage powers are.

The support that it takes to get the patriarch boosted to absurd levels with current MO is too small. Way too small. A 35pt character, the selection of 1 of your 3 warlord traits, and one other supporting power cast by a 25pt allied psyker, again with a decent range. The fact that you can with significant effort take out a superheavy is one thing, but the fact that with almost no effort you're in the realm of oneshotting heavy 150-200 point vehicles and instantly making the points back on your patriarch+all his support is what pushes the current iteration of the power way over the top.

It's easy, but you're devoting portions of your army to it.

LD12-13 is simply to achieve because it typically involves:

1 WT
1 Relic
1 Clamavus

However, everything ELSE is requiring additional effort, like reducing enemy leadership, bringing tyranids just for "The Horror", etc.

However, a difference of 4 (So anything Ld9, etc) still ends with something like 4-6w on average.

If we're approaching the discussion honestly, we need to also acknowledge the scenario is not always "z0mg op you one shot all knights!!!"

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's easy, but you're devoting portions of your army to it.

LD12-13 is simply to achieve because it typically involves:

1 WT
1 Relic
1 Clamavus

However, everything ELSE is requiring additional effort, like reducing enemy leadership, bringing tyranids just for "The Horror", etc.

However, a difference of 4 (So anything Ld9, etc) still ends with something like 4-6w on average.

If we're approaching the discussion honestly, we need to also acknowledge the scenario is not always "z0mg op you one shot all knights!!!"

No, it most certainly isn't. "ZOMG Op you one-shot knights" is relatively hard to achieve, and is why (at first) i just saw this as a Timmy Tactic - people losing their mind over an edge case.

However, achieving one-shot territory vs most medium to heavy vehicles which are usually LD7 or LD8 only requires approximately 200 points of miniatures to achieve and has the potential to instantly return that many points with pretty crazy reliability.

it's not the things that can achieve amazing results in an edge case that turn into balance problems. It's the things that can do that, optionally, but which can achieve over-average results amazingly consistently.

Also, the average wounds at +4 are way more than 4-5, you only have a 1 in 12 chance of failure. That average with compound probability is much closer to 8-9 - bonkers when compared to most direct damage powers. that's a patriarch with only a clamavus as support, which is something you would be taking anyway for the charge bonus, and nothing else, vs most vehicles.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's easy, but you're devoting portions of your army to it.

LD12-13 is simply to achieve because it typically involves:

1 WT
1 Relic
1 Clamavus

However, everything ELSE is requiring additional effort, like reducing enemy leadership, bringing tyranids just for "The Horror", etc.

However, a difference of 4 (So anything Ld9, etc) still ends with something like 4-6w on average.

If we're approaching the discussion honestly, we need to also acknowledge the scenario is not always "z0mg op you one shot all knights!!!"

When you bring Tyranids, you don't just get The Horror. And even if you did, that's a really good power that has great uses outside of contributing to one shotting units, and if you are sniping down big units with it it's more than worth the points.

This does very much have the ring of a classic MTG “magical Christmas land” combo. Seems really fun but people are saying the ability is a surefire to get faqed? Doesn’t make a ton of sense as it seems to have a lot of setup cost and be very disruptable. Does seem fun though.

Basically how I feel exactly.

So to get off the Mental onslaught one shot you need

Paterarch
Calmavus
Iconward(1CP Vigilus Det and take the relic)
Ether a Tyranid or a Guard allied detachment to take
Nerothrope or Guard Psyker

You then need to Ambush in your Paterarch within 18" of a knight with the Iconward and calmavus
and make sure you get your guard or Tyranid psyker within 18" as well.

You then need to successfully cast Terrifying visions (DC:7) or Horror (DC:6) and not get denied

Then you need to successfully cast Mental onslaught (DC:6)

So barring any issues with deployment and getting everything into place you need to make 2 DC 6 Psychic tests or a DC 6 and DC 7 psychic test and not be denied at all.

I honestly don't see any issue. If I were playing against something like this and had a knight I'd have to ether screen very well or bring multple psykers to deny the enemy casts.

If this fails you are left with a bunch of tasty targets for all your chaff to shoot at and then have your untouched knight blow them away.

If it does work cool neat trick....bad on me for letting you do it. Guess I will know better next time.

Oh and a single anti psyker assassin stops this dead in it's tracks.
This also gives you an excuse to use Gray knights as anti psykers they get +1 to deny and have a strat to rill 3 dice and take the best 2 for a deny.

I played against GSC tonight with my guard. I learned that Tank Commanders only have leadership 7. LOL. Feels bad man. 11 mortal wounds in a row from Mental Onslaught.

And holy crap, at one point I only had 2 battle tanks which could fire at Aberrants. The battle cannon is probably the worst weapon you can possibly use on them, hahaha. But I had no choice!

S8, 8 attack Patriarchs are very scary.

So with CP being very important you think we will see more Brigades to fuel them.

A Brood Brother Brigade can be as cheap as 594pts to get us
3 Company commanders
3 Platoon commanders
6 Inf Squads
3 Sentinels with Multi lasers
3 Heavy weapons squads with mortars

This gives some solid screening, good dakka and all the units have an order available to them 6 inf are covered by the 3 company commanders and the three HWT each have a Platoon commander.
(If they can use orders that is). We have seen at this year's LVO how important boots on the ground can be so it's all win to take it.
For an only extra 147 pts you can add Lazcannons to all the inf squads and heavy flamers to the sentinels.....

The bb brigade only gives you 6 cp though.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I played against GSC tonight with my guard. I learned that Tank Commanders only have leadership 7. LOL. Feels bad man. 11 mortal wounds in a row from Mental Onslaught.

And holy crap, at one point I only had 2 battle tanks which could fire at Aberrants. The battle cannon is probably the worst weapon you can possibly use on them, hahaha. But I had no choice!

S8, 8 attack Patriarchs are very scary.

Super curious to hear more. What was effective and what wasn't?

So what does everyone think of the Telepathic Summons stratagem? Spend 2 CP and give up Psychic phase on one of your psykers (probably the Magus) to summon up to 3d6 PR. I'm thinking this would be a good way to bring in a unit of free Jackals. A full unit of 12 bike and 3 quads comes out to PR 12. Thoughts?

 EnTyme wrote:
So what does everyone think of the Telepathic Summons stratagem? Spend 2 CP and give up Psychic phase on one of your psykers (probably the Magus) to summon up to 3d6 PR. I'm thinking this would be a good way to bring in a unit of free Jackals. A full unit of 12 bike and 3 quads comes out to PR 12. Thoughts?

You’d have to have the required points set aside though so they’re not really “free”.

Ah. Didn't realize that was how summoning worked in 8th. Never used an army with a summoning ability this edition. If that's the case, you'd be better off setting those bikes up underground.

Gordoape wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I played against GSC tonight with my guard. I learned that Tank Commanders only have leadership 7. LOL. Feels bad man. 11 mortal wounds in a row from Mental Onslaught.

And holy crap, at one point I only had 2 battle tanks which could fire at Aberrants. The battle cannon is probably the worst weapon you can possibly use on them, hahaha. But I had no choice!

S8, 8 attack Patriarchs are very scary.

Super curious to hear more. What was effective and what wasn't?

Honestly the biggest takeaway was that it is VERY effective to be able to move your blip markers up to 12" and also deploy multiple blips for 1 unit. That kind of flexibility is insane.

I also learned what unbuffed units are capable of. They could effectively cripple leman russ profile units on their own with 4 rock saws and 6 regular acolytes. It is good to learn the expectations.

I definitely saw a massive spike in damage on turn 2 and then it gradually fall back off again as buffs wore off, units got crippled by anti infantry fire, he ran out of CPs, etc. But that is exactly what I expected. I feel like if an opponent screens well and knows how to take a gut punch on turn 2, they may be set to weather the storm.

The number of attacks every single unit puts out in CC is pretty scary for any army that has T4 or below infantry.

My opponent started the game with 16CPs, I think, and had spent 14 by the end of his 2nd turn.

Can someone else clarify. Patriarch doesn't get CULT benefits because it's a Genestealer keyword?

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Can someone else clarify. Patriarch doesn't get CULT benefits because it's a Genestealer keyword?

Page 108, Cult Creeds, final line of the rule.