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 Niiai wrote:
Wait, are IG weaponteams with mortals cheaper then ouers?

GSC pay 2 more points for a mortar for some reason.

But you can still have 18 mortars for 216 points. Seems... reasonable. Going to be hard to LOS block that many - but with 48" they can sit right at the back.

I feel brood brothers are being set up for sweeping nerfs although maybe GW won't care.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Here's my first draft list

Infantry squads, mortars and brood bros set up on the board clustered around the psychic warlord patriarch. Then turn 2 start landing hammer blows from the acolytes - 20 of them pop up backfield for hand flamer and demo charge shenanigans. 20 have just claws to clear some chaff or elite infantry and 2 have rock saws for cutting down knights or big things.

Twisted helix bat 709pts
HQ
Patriarch 137 with familiar (crouchling) – mental onslaught + mass hypnosis + Might from beyond – 137pts WARLORD
Magus 92 with familiar – mind control + might from beyond – 92pts
Troops
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts

Twisted helix bat (deliverance broodsurge) 633pts

HQ
Iconward 53pts (re-roll charges)
Patriarch 125pts (helix relic)
Troops
20 acolytes – hand flamers and 5 demo charges - 185pts
10 acolytes – 4 rock saws and icon 120pts
10 acolytes – 4 rock saws and icon 120pts
20 acolytes – icon

Brood bros 544pts

HQ
Company commander 30pts
Company commander 30pts
Tempestor prime with rod 45pts
Elites
Astropath with maelstrom 26pts
Astropath with terrify 26pts
Troops
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Heavy
3 mortars 33pts
3 mortars 33pts
3 mortars 33pts

Not really a fan of this for the reasons I gave on scottsmans. Your relying on table space, if they scout or use fliers your not coming in turn 2. You can run run run the guard detachment, but keep in mind that entire force cannot blip or trick deploy. They will be at the whim of your opponent.

It's not bad, I just think it is too heavy on GEQ again. Just mindlessly spamming them won't win you the game against some of the savage lists out there.

I'd at least switch the first detachment to 4AE, none of the guys barring the magus benefit from a creed, so may as well get the counter spell strat.

I agree with Red Corsair, switch the 1st detachment to 4AE.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Here's my first draft list

Infantry squads, mortars and brood bros set up on the board clustered around the psychic warlord patriarch. Then turn 2 start landing hammer blows from the acolytes - 20 of them pop up backfield for hand flamer and demo charge shenanigans. 20 have just claws to clear some chaff or elite infantry and 2 have rock saws for cutting down knights or big things.

LIST

Not really a fan of this for the reasons I gave on scottsmans. Your relying on table space, if they scout or use fliers your not coming in turn 2. You can run run run the guard detachment, but keep in mind that entire force cannot blip or trick deploy. They will be at the whim of your opponent.

It's not bad, I just think it is too heavy on GEQ again. Just mindlessly spamming them won't win you the game against some of the savage lists out there.

I'd at least switch the first detachment to 4AE, none of the guys barring the magus benefit from a creed, so may as well get the counter spell strat.

Thanks for the input! Not sure how scouts and flyers are particularly any worse for this than any GSC list though? I've got enough anti infantry to clear up most scouts turn 1. We have no real answer for flyers, but with 240+ models I think I could just ignore them and play objectives (maybe down one or two with mental onslaught/smites/psychic maelstrom) This list at least has the flamer-demo-bomb that can drop 3" away to unleash the hurt, and a full 160-shot brood brother bomb to unleash turn 2 to further clear chaff.

I'm not overly sold on the trick-deploy deployment myself. I'd rather just use the more efficient troops that can move-move-move and FRFSRF.

Good call on the 4AE creed though. no real reason not to, and the magus can just use powers on enemies and the brood bros.

And, the last detachment (AM/BB) a Battalion, right? Shame you couldn't fit 3 FA choices and upgrade it to a Brigade. Would get you 6 CP instead of 3.

Edit: Oh, nvm I only see 2 elites. Must be a Batt

 DoomMouse wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Here's my first draft list

Infantry squads, mortars and brood bros set up on the board clustered around the psychic warlord patriarch. Then turn 2 start landing hammer blows from the acolytes - 20 of them pop up backfield for hand flamer and demo charge shenanigans. 20 have just claws to clear some chaff or elite infantry and 2 have rock saws for cutting down knights or big things.

LIST

Not really a fan of this for the reasons I gave on scottsmans. Your relying on table space, if they scout or use fliers your not coming in turn 2. You can run run run the guard detachment, but keep in mind that entire force cannot blip or trick deploy. They will be at the whim of your opponent.

It's not bad, I just think it is too heavy on GEQ again. Just mindlessly spamming them won't win you the game against some of the savage lists out there.

I'd at least switch the first detachment to 4AE, none of the guys barring the magus benefit from a creed, so may as well get the counter spell strat.

Thanks for the input! Not sure how scouts and flyers are particularly any worse for this than any GSC list though? I've got enough anti infantry to clear up most scouts turn 1. We have no real answer for flyers, but with 240+ models I think I could just ignore them and play objectives (maybe down one or two with mental onslaught/smites/psychic maelstrom) This list at least has the flamer-demo-bomb that can drop 3" away to unleash the hurt, and a full 160-shot brood brother bomb to unleash turn 2 to further clear chaff.

I'm not overly sold on the trick-deploy deployment myself. I'd rather just use the more efficient troops that can move-move-move and FRFSRF.

Good call on the 4AE creed though. no real reason not to, and the magus can just use powers on enemies and the brood bros.

When I say scouts I don't necessarily mean literal scouts, that's my bad. It's a lazy way of saying anything that can zone you back. So eldar fliers, nurglings, sentinels, skitarii dragons from stygiis 8 etc etc. I was assuming you were planning on dropping in the 20 strong BB squads from reserve, but maybe you had other ideas.

EDIT

Either way, make sure you share your game with it and any findings. I just have a feeling certain armies will take advantage of that guard section that needs to awkwardly standard deploy around a few blips, and won't have the right guns to drop certain advancing units. I suppose you could just deploy everyone and use orders, but you will need platoon commanders to havbe enough orders and I am not sure how easy deploying that high model count will be. You may movement block yourself

There was a big ITC tournament recently so I’ve had nothing to practice my GSC with but people tweaking their tourney lists. Played against ork loota bombs, Ynnari spam, a couple copy/paste knight lists, and some other assorted hardcore nonsense. Among my assorted musings:

We need a LOT of chaff clearing for a reserve heavy list to work. The bubble wrap is insane in ITC when you don’t have to really care about objectives and can play a parking lot. Reaching IG artillery and Ork loota blobs means wading through a lot of stuff. I’d replace every pistol on acolytes with flamers and run 3 mortar squads as a baseline army composition.

GSC vehicles are going to die turn 1. The sentinels might survive to turn 2, but Goliaths, Rockgrinders, and Ridgerunners are getting iced. Your only hope is squeezing them behind LOS terrain, but they’re not doing much good there. Taking vehicles means running a Mad Max horde or hoping for turn 1.

Running a boots on the ground horde can work if you’re fast enough. Broodsurge Twisted Helix acolytes can cover a lot of ground and get reliable turn 2 charges off with the right support. But you still have to go overboard on the chaff clearers and not get all your assaulters tangled up in pointless battles with scouts.

I’ll be glad to practice lists on something that isn’t another awful ITC army now, but it was definitely good experience.

Am I reading Unquestioning Loyalty right?

It intercepts after a failed save but BEFORE damage, meaning it turns an entire Lascannon hit into one dead friendly model, regardless of what the damage roll would've been?

Yup, that’s how it works

 Ascalam wrote:
Yup, that’s how it works

Hot damn, that's saucy!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I made a list I would like critique on.

Much appreciated!

Make that two.

 Red Corsair wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

Battalion Detachment (Cult of the four-armed emperor)

Patriarch
Magus

20x Brood Brothers
20x Brood Brothers
20x Brood Brothers

Brigade Detachment (Rusted Claw, Annointed Throng)

Abominant (insidious Mindwyrm)
Acolyte Iconward
Primus

10x Neophytes
10x Neophytes
10x Neophytes
10x Neophytes
10x Acolytes, 4x Saws
20x Brood Brothers

Nexos
5x Aberrants, 4 hammers 1 improvised weapon
Locus
Clamavus

3x5 Jackals

3x3 Mortar Teams

Brood Brothers Spearhead

Tempestor Prime with Rod
Tempestor Prime with Rod

Wyvern
Wyvern
Wyvern

You get 21CP to play with, so after youve deleted the entirety of the enemy's screen turn 1 you perfect ambush your acolytes/aberrants in and smash the most important heavy target on the board. You've got a +3 Mental Onslaught power in there as well. If the enemy has loads of medium infantry/vehicles you can just flood the board with super resilient guard bodies and bog down to victory.

Designed to fight current imperial soup lists, tau lists, Drukhari coven spam, nurgle/ork hordes, designed to try and outlast drukhari venomspam and marine gunlines.

Maybe a bit over the top with antichaff, but I'm figuring around 100 guardsmen on average in an imp soup list and 100-150 ork/nurgle bodies in their respective lists. Also lasguns/mortars/wyverns are more efficient weapons against venoms and raiders than lascannons anyway.

I am not seeing that list doing as well as your thinking against the match ups your suggesting. You have one patriarch to provide fearless on ~150 guys. You also have zero scouting models, your gona struggle dropping in 120+ models on turn 2+ against anyone with a competitive list. I also don't see how your chewing through that many bodies in those lists you suggested.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
The mental onslaught power seems more balanced this way. Still powerful, but not 'build a list round it' powerful. One-shotting knights and super heavies was a bit silly, but you can still happily melt a character's brain if you scare them enough.

Is there anything to stop me taking 6 units of mortars? 3 from the AM dex and 3 from the 'brood brothers heavy weapons team' datasheet.

Nothing at all. Go nuts.

Hey guys remember when earlier in the edition we had to nerf Guard/every faction because Guard could take a million mortar teams and huge cheap order-able conscript squads? Well we released that back into the game, but this time with army wide deep strike for free and BS4+.

Yea but back then less then half the books were out. What would make more sense to me is to walk back those earlier nerfs a bit. Brood brothers are very efficient, but they die like farts in a breeze to some of the current lists in the meta.

You can freely swap the jackals out for scout sentinels if you want with this list, they cost essentially the same. The jackals are in there because I think they have more board presence. Also, if I'm up against flyer spam I'm not just going to blindly deep strike everything and go "well gwarsh I hope he leaves me room to deploy!" If they've got 5 or 6 crimson hunters, I'll just start it all on the board. My opponent devoted 1000 points of his list to anti tank units that don't score objectives. Great.

The list is basically just competitive imperial soup, swapping out a knight castellan for a bunch of elements that can easily kill a knight castellan, with the added bonus of guardsmen who get the first punch against my opponent's guardsmen.

Maybe we should have waited until the competitive meta wasn't essentially owned by guard before we start reverting guard nerfs in new codexes. Just a thought.

So another neat combo for Rusted claw bikers.

Lie in wait and Drive by demo+Extra explosives(4CP total)

You deploy a bike unit with (at least) 5 demo charges at 3.1" use drive by demo and extra explosives to hit on 3+ wound on 3+ vs 8T (2+ vs all else) then you get to move 14" away.... is this gonna be as cool as I think it will. :-)

Edit: Extra credit if you get your Alphus within 12" for hit on 2+ or your primus within 6" (he can easily come in (" back and be within 6" of bikes if you just include a 6th bike or a Quad due to large bases to reroll 1's...

 Jrandom wrote:
Does anyone think there could be some value in equipping Oppressor’s Bane on someone else besides the Kelermorph? I am think that since you are going to be having a Clamavus up in your T2 ambushers, you could replace his Auto Pistol with the relic. You then have the Kelermorph fire first, kill a character or two, then have the Clamavus get the reroll 1s buff, and then kill another character. Any thoughts besides “Your wasting a CP!” Situational for sure, but the Clamavus is just sitting there holding a beer for your other characters, until he dies.

I'm with you here The first reflex is to want to put it on a Kelermorph because abilities match, but IMHO it means they are a bit redundant.

The caveat being indeed "waste of CP/Relic slot" - depends of what utility you have of other relics, but if you disregard that and/or really want to use the OB, I agree it is better spent on a non-KM character because you get better mileage out of the upgrade:

- On a Kelermorph:
* Improve 2 shots by AP-1
* Gain 1 shot with S4 AP-2 D2
* Gunslinger ability will generate more shots

- On another character:
* Improve 1 shot by AP-2 and D+1
* Gain 2 shots with S4 AP-2 D2
* Gain "Target Characters" rule

It basically turns another character in a lightweight Kelermorph. Cons: half the shots, no Gunslinger ability - but the big Pro is that it comes on top of the 1-per-detachment limit, so in a 2000pts army you could have 3 KMs +1 LWKM.

Quick review of the possibilities:

- Clamavus: best candidate, likely to be near the frontline to boost charges/morale/pushback DS, while not wanting to go into melee.
- Iconward: second best candidatate as he's likely for similar reasons to hover in the same near-melee-but-not-in-it spot, unless you babysit your gunline with it. Comparatively better in melee though, which may tempt you in in a pinch.
- Biophagus: also likely to hover near the frontlines, but needs Aberrants in the list as well, same comparatively better melee which may tempt you in.
- Jackal Alphus: no incentive to bring it in the right range, may help protect your backfield against DS/fast/fly stuff, but surely too situational.
- Nexos: does not belong anywhere near pistol range of anything. Backfield protection in a pinch, very situational.
- Primus, Locus, Sanctus: can't take it.

If you really want to boost a Kelermorph there's always the Twisted Helix WL trait (yay 6 shots base at D3 with Gunslinger extras ) but I can already hear the cries of "Waste of a WL trait" and "Slay the Warlord bait"

Kelermorph also has better BS so hits more, and is likely turning that 1 extra shot into 2 total hits thanks to his gunslinging, where as someone else will likely turn those 2 extra shots into 1 hit thanks to middling BS. And Kelermorph can shoot characters with it.

It's pretty clear cut, if you are going to take it and you have a Kelermorph I wouldn't put it elsewhere. If you don't feel it does enough on Kelermorph just don't take it at all because it does even less elsewhere.

Fun option in the opposite direction.

Dagger of swift sacrifice on a kellermorph.

Esp with Bladed cog

Makes him a melee monster as well as a pistol monster and guess what he can keep shooting wile in melee too :-)

Im reading in facebook that we can " deep strike" the first turn

Page 79 – Cult Ambush
Add the following sentence:
‘Matched Play: In matched play, units set up in ambush using
this rule count as being set up on the battlefield for the purposes
of Tactical Reserves.’
Q: In a matched play game, can you use Stratagems such as
They Came From Below to increase the number of units set up
underground beyond the normal Tactical Reserves limits?
A: Yes. The Tactical Reserves limits concerning this apply
specifically to deployment, whilst this Stratagem is used
once the battle has started

So 3 units with they came from below, dont meet the requirements of the BETA rule.


what do you think?







Also, mental onslaught is faqued?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Kelermorph also has better BS so hits more, and is likely turning that 1 extra shot into 2 total hits thanks to his gunslinging, where as someone else will likely turn those 2 extra shots into 1 hit thanks to middling BS. And Kelermorph can shoot characters with it.

It's pretty clear cut, if you are going to take it and you have a Kelermorph I wouldn't put it elsewhere. If you don't feel it does enough on Kelermorph just don't take it at all because it does even less elsewhere.

Oppressors Bane allows you to shoot characters. After receiving the Kelermorph buff, you are almost as accurate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zamerion wrote:
Im reading in facebook that we can " deep strike" the first turn

Page 79 – Cult Ambush
Add the following sentence:
‘Matched Play: In matched play, units set up in ambush using
this rule count as being set up on the battlefield for the purposes
of Tactical Reserves.’
Q: In a matched play game, can you use Stratagems such as
They Came From Below to increase the number of units set up
underground beyond the normal Tactical Reserves limits?
A: Yes. The Tactical Reserves limits concerning this apply
specifically to deployment, whilst this Stratagem is used
once the battle has started

So 3 units with they came from below, dont meet the requirements of the BETA rule.


what do you think?







Also, mental onslaught is faqued?

Spoiler:

Very interesting on the 1st Turn Deepstrike. Not sure if that was intended.

With the Psychic Power, I don’t see it FAQed.

That is the old one they accidentally put out. The new one does not have the change to mental onslaught.

Couple of rule questions:

1) If i take Abominant with Anointed Throng and give him field commander. Can i take blessed sledgehammer and give my Patriach amulet of the void for free or i have to pay 1CP for the extra relic?

2) With Cult ambush i deploy 50% of my army with blips, then at the start of the turn, i can use: they came from below and send 3 more units to cult ambush?

3) With the new mind control i can only make a close combat attack if there is a enemy model 1 inch away?

 Jrandom wrote:

Very interesting on the 1st Turn Deepstrike. Not sure if that was intended.

I would guess that it wasn't intended. The context in which the ruling is discussed is that the units in cult ambush don't count as being in reinforcements for the purposes of contributing to the amount of units you can have off the board. I agree that the wording leaves it open, but I think the intention is clear.

See the question as worded in the FAQ:

Q: In a matched play game, can you use Stratagems such as
They Came From Below to increase the number of units set up
underground beyond the normal Tactical Reserves limits?
A: Yes. The Tactical Reserves limits concerning this apply
specifically to deployment, whilst this Stratagem is used
once the battle has started

The answer says "The Tactical Reserves limits concerning this apply specifically to deployment...", "this" in this case being the "use [of] Stratagems such as They Came From Below to increase the number of units set up underground beyond the normal Tactical Reserves limits".

Again, I concede that the wording does not make this explicit, but I would be surprised if the intention was to be able to place a unit it ambush, move it to underground, and then deep strike it all in the first turn. The 40k rules team have, through a multitude of changes since the start of the edition, made it abundantly clear that they don't want anybody to deep strike turn 1. I guess we'll have to wait until the March FAQ and see if it is addressed there.

Except that Gate of Infinity and Da Jump seem to work exactly this way. Doesn't speak to intention, but precedent...
Hopefully if one goes, they all go.

Araablane wrote:
Couple of rule questions:

1) If i take Abominant with Anointed Throng and give him field commander. Can i take blessed sledgehammer and give my Patriach amulet of the void for free or i have to pay 1CP for the extra relic?

2) With Cult ambush i deploy 50% of my army with blips, then at the start of the turn, i can use: they came from below and send 3 more units to cult ambush?

3) With the new mind control i can only make a close combat attack if there is a enemy model 1 inch away?

1) You have to pay. As per the Vigilus FAQ, the relics you give to your field commanders replace the free relic you get from your warlord's codex.

2) Yes. The FAQ clarified this. You have to start with 50% on the board (either deployed or as cult ambush blips), but this restriction is limited to deployment. When you reveal your ambushing units and use the stratagem, you can put additional units underground as it's no longer deployment.

3) Yes. As the model didn't charge, it can't attack unless it's within 1" already. You should make sure to check this before you choose your target, as you don't want to cast it and then be unable to fight with the model!

hangnailnz wrote:
Except that Gate of Infinity and Da Jump seem to work exactly this way. Doesn't speak to intention, but precedent...
Hopefully if one goes, they all go.

Difference would be those start on board right away and are targetable etc. Here the models would never be on board right? So if opponent goes first there's literally nothing he can do to kill the ambushers? Da jump etc they can shoot at will.

(plus max 1 unit and not even automatic needing psychic power which isn't automatic)

On the bright side with the addendum they added to lying in wait you can't use this first turn loophole to ambush in 3" first turn or we would be hearing screams from everyone for sure lol.

Timeshadow wrote:
On the bright side with the addendum they added to lying in wait you can't use this first turn loophole to ambush in 3" first turn or we would be hearing screams from everyone for sure lol.

I actually think the interaction and the Turn1 'deeostrike' are absolutely intentional. For once, GW's rules writing, in this specific instance, iscrystal clear and has been made doubly so with the FAQ. It also makes sense both thematically and as a way to put pressure on the opposition in a game where assault armies tend to get shot off the board.

You still end up 9.1" away and will need to spend a further 3CP to allow you to get D6" closer.

Wait, how does this work? Our perfect ambush stratagem overides the no deepstrike outside your deployment zone? Is that what we are talking about?

 Niiai wrote:
Wait, how does this work? Our perfect ambush stratagem overides the no deepstrike outside your deployment zone? Is that what we are talking about?

If I understand correctly you put the units as blips thus satisfying "deployed on board" and then use strategem to put them into "deep strike" and as they were deployed on board(as blips) they would count as being on board and ergo not restricted on no T1 deep strike.

 Niiai wrote:
Wait, how does this work? Our perfect ambush stratagem overides the no deepstrike outside your deployment zone? Is that what we are talking about?

Nope. You can set up blip counters which count as being 'deployed'. When it's time to reveal the blios, you pop They Come from Below for 1 CP. This puts them 'underground'. You can then have them, at the end of your movement phase, turn up 9.1" away. You can then spend a further 3CP to move them D6" closer and hopefully get a charge off.

Scouts screening the opposition will mess this up, though....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So it'll never really work in a tourney and you might catch one of your mates out with it once, before he tells everyone else.

It will mess somebodies deployment up good though.

My lists plan on having perfect ambush turn 2 and 3. But with this you can diversify your ambush portfolio and include a screen clearing unit (sugestions are welcome.) Then you just flowchart him as you take said 3 units into reserves. If he castels he is cramped up and you clear the screen. If he does not castle you T1 charge.

 Niiai wrote:
It will mess somebodies deployment up good though.

My lists plan on having perfect ambush turn 2 and 3. But with this you can diversify your ambush portfolio and include a screen clearing unit (sugestions are welcome.) Then you just flowchart him as you take said 3 units into reserves. If he castels he is cramped up and you clear the screen. If he does not castle you T1 charge.

That's pretty much it, yeah.

I launched two units of 15 Genestealers with a Patriarch sitting behind them using this at the weekend. Luckily both made it in. Both units obliterated everything they touched before being mown down by enemy fire. But this took most of my opponent's shooting, leaving my other stuff unmolested to advance up the board.

Kelermorphs are actually ridiculously good at screen removal. Take two detachments so you can double up with them. Then pop them out with a squad of rapid firing neophytes. The neophytes and 2nd Kelermorph will be re-rolling 1s to hit if the first Kelermorph kills anything. There's your chaff removed. Next turn pop your Aberrants or big Acolyte squad with a Clamavus. Use A Perfect Ambush and charge in.