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So are we saying that you could use Lying in Wait for a Locus, apply the -1Ld to a target for MO, and then use his Sudden Strike to move 6" into combat, and still attack first, delivering 2 damage per successful wound? I mean I know that this is wasting a perfectly good opportunity to drop a million hand flamers instead, but it is a nasty surprise if done right.
I hammered together a list to try running at my next local, which is at the end of the month. It takes a lot of things I like and want to try, plus some old favorites that I have ready to go from Tyranids.
List
Spoiler:
Jormungandr Battalion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
25x Termagants (devourer)
3x Ravenrs (deathspitter, rending claws)
Twisted Helix Battalion
Magus
Patriarch
Primus
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 8x rock saw)
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 20x hand flamer)
10x Neophyte Hybrids (2x mining laser)
18 CP, lots of chaff clearing, access to APGITM, Acolyte Bomb, Flamer Bomb.
Primarch is the warlord, giving him the cc buff warlord trait. I pop Broodcoven to give the Primus the increased aura range and the C4AE Magus the C4AE warlord trait for the d3 CP.
For deployment I blip/deploy the Alphus, a Magus, the Neophytes, Iconward, Rippers, one Neurothrope, and the Nexos, for 12 units deployed. I spend 2 CP to tunnel Neurothrope and the Termagants in with the Raveners, and reserve the Primarch, Primus, other Magus, both Kelermorphs, Clamavus, and both Acolyte units.
At this point I have spent 3/18 CP and got back 1d3, leaving me with at least 16.
Turn 1 I Perfect Ambush the Sanctus, plink with the mining lasers and snipers, and hope that I have enough models on the field/have screened and hidden my units well enought that I survive to turn 2. The Iconward hangs out next to the Neophytes to help them not run. The Alphus can buff either then mining lasers or the Sanctus, depending on priority targets.I have 40 infantry models in 4 squads, 9 Ripper bases, and 6 characters on the table.
Turn 2 I tunnel in the Rippers with the Termagants and a Neurothrope. The 'gaunts really want to be in synapse for the alpha strike and keeping them fearless is useful, and the Neurothrope provides useful Tyranid powers. Smite/Catylist the turn he lands, and Horror the turn the Primarch comes in. I have almost never done a devilgaunt drop that didn't shoot twice, so 2 CP to double tap.
Depending on targets and screens I either bring in the the flamer Acolytes or drop the Saw bomb (saw Acolytes + characters) or both. I expect that in general the 'gaunts and the flamers come down turn 2, with the Kelermorphs, and the 'cc units come down turn 3. I expect to use 5 CP on the two drops, plus a reroll somewhere in there, which puts me at 8 CP, with one regenerated, so 9.
I'm now at turn 3, with a lot of frail but hard hitting units on the table. If I did enough damage on my drops I expect to be mopping up. If not, I'm going to be picking up a lot of models as I scramble to make points. I have enough CP to try to pick up a unit and drop it again, giving me flexibility.
I think your over simplifying things a bit and I don't really want to get into vacuum hammer. You keep referring to strategies that you can't use at once. For example I can't cancel his deny stratagem and auspex scan, I get one use per game. I also cannot psychic mortal wound spam his dude and cast mass hypnosis. I know how to beat the army, I just don't know how to do it and win the ITC format. Our army literally functions by hurling wave after wave at the opponent, that is a terrible style in ITC. You basically hand them easy secondaries and kill more every turn and play from behind. It's part of the reason I am not a fan of ITC missions, I realize any format will be gamed, but that format in particular focuses on castles and gun lines too much. You only ever need to hold 1 objective.
What are your ideas on a list? I think that might be a better direction for the discussion.
It is all fairly general, but there's not really a way to get really specific without an actual game getting played. There's always that aspect of choosing the correct way to expend limited resources during a game.
I'm not sure GSC do particularly horribly in ITC, as those secondary objectives are all so easy to get. My comments are all academic, though, as no one around here uses that setup. Because, really, when eight out of eleven secondaries (and all of the ones you can score rapidly) and three out of four primaries (come on, hold one objective that you could deploy on is not a game objective, it's a waste of ink) there are really quite obvious consequences.
The only thing I could suggest is to play for the "hold more objectives" battle round primary (and the scenario point, if it's not one of the insanely awkward ones) while maxing out on your own murder-based secondaries in return (under the assumption that he will also get 12 secondary points). His army isn't particularly mobile and wants to castle up, so you should be able to snag that one with disposable BB/Neophyte units more often than he can, letting you eke out a victory that way.
Then you try to cripple his army with an overwhelming strike on turn two, which should be able to limit his return fire somewhat. You'll just need to make sure you limit what he can kill on T1 (he doesn't have a ton of firepower if you hang back, so you shouldn't lose that much) while still clearing out the IG screen as best you can (here's where those mortars/wyverns/whatever other long ranged shooting are going to be critical).
His whole army is centered around vicious anti-infantry firepower and amazing invulnerable saves. By deepstriking most of your list into his face on turn two and dishing out a ton of middling attacks that don't lose much vs a 3++ you bypass both of those to a fair degree. Just don't try and footslog it up the field at him; that'll result in him blasting multiple squads off the table in each shooting phase and then picking the remnants apart as he falls back once you do manage to get the stragglers into combat.
To sum it up: DS 75% of your army at him T2 and hope to crush him, or walk at him and lose.
OK well that's clearing things up a lot. If you haven't played ITC missions at all then you will have trouble relating to where I am coming from. You keep assuming secondaries are something simple to achieve that's not the core problem. The whole issue with GSC in ITC is they hand over VP's so easily it's nuts, while the enemy will tailor their army so it doesn't give away secondaries. That means we are stuck trying to grab board control objectives like recon. If I go for recon I need to be in 4 quarters with 4 units for 4 turns to max it out. Thats a long ass time to survive with some of the lists out there.
Let me break it down for you another way, when making an army for the ITC format, you can't just consider how you will kill enemy units, thats only part of it. You also need to look through the entire list of secondaries and tailor your own army so that it doesn't give up those VP's at all, or so it short changes the opponent. So for example one might intentionally run only 3 units with 7 or more wounds so the enemy can only ever get 3 points for big game hunter instead of the maximum 4. If your list does allow for 4 of big game hunter you would want those units to be durable as possible. Like take for instance eldar fliers, after hit mods they become quite durable, so not only are they good units but they also become a trap for secondaries.
Our army gives up, butchers bill, reaper, marked for death, head hunter and possibly big game hunter like a bad joke. Since we basically rely on reserves to be mobile and durable we also give up board control easier then you would think in order to try to get into assault. It's easy to say throw away lines like, reserve 75% of your army and crush them at once on turn 2, but any good tournament list with a competent general is going to zone you back and feed you sub-optimal targets in the process.
Look over that DW list I shared and tell me which secondaries you think are easy to get from it. The obvious choices to me are recon, behind enemy lines and ground control. The major issue is not being tabled in 4 turns while you sacrifice your units spreading out to get those. Turn 1 we basically are not scoring them due to reserves, or we do attempt to score those but we now are not removing the loyal 32.
This is why I have asked you to post a list you think would beat the DW army I posted in the ITC format. What secondaries would you go for and how? Will that list still be TAC?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/02 03:34:13
babelfish wrote: I hammered together a list to try running at my next local, which is at the end of the month. It takes a lot of things I like and want to try, plus some old favorites that I have ready to go from Tyranids.
List
Spoiler:
Jormungandr Battalion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
25x Termagants (devourer)
3x Ravenrs (deathspitter, rending claws)
Twisted Helix Battalion
Magus
Patriarch
Primus
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 8x rock saw)
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 20x hand flamer)
10x Neophyte Hybrids (2x mining laser)
18 CP, lots of chaff clearing, access to APGITM, Acolyte Bomb, Flamer Bomb.
Primarch is the warlord, giving him the cc buff warlord trait. I pop Broodcoven to give the Primus the increased aura range and the C4AE Magus the C4AE warlord trait for the d3 CP.
For deployment I blip/deploy the Alphus, a Magus, the Neophytes, Iconward, Rippers, one Neurothrope, and the Nexos, for 12 units deployed. I spend 2 CP to tunnel Neurothrope and the Termagants in with the Raveners, and reserve the Primarch, Primus, other Magus, both Kelermorphs, Clamavus, and both Acolyte units.
At this point I have spent 3/18 CP and got back 1d3, leaving me with at least 16.
Turn 1 I Perfect Ambush the Sanctus, plink with the mining lasers and snipers, and hope that I have enough models on the field/have screened and hidden my units well enought that I survive to turn 2. The Iconward hangs out next to the Neophytes to help them not run. The Alphus can buff either then mining lasers or the Sanctus, depending on priority targets.I have 40 infantry models in 4 squads, 9 Ripper bases, and 6 characters on the table.
Turn 2 I tunnel in the Rippers with the Termagants and a Neurothrope. The 'gaunts really want to be in synapse for the alpha strike and keeping them fearless is useful, and the Neurothrope provides useful Tyranid powers. Smite/Catylist the turn he lands, and Horror the turn the Primarch comes in. I have almost never done a devilgaunt drop that didn't shoot twice, so 2 CP to double tap.
Depending on targets and screens I either bring in the the flamer Acolytes or drop the Saw bomb (saw Acolytes + characters) or both. I expect that in general the 'gaunts and the flamers come down turn 2, with the Kelermorphs, and the 'cc units come down turn 3. I expect to use 5 CP on the two drops, plus a reroll somewhere in there, which puts me at 8 CP, with one regenerated, so 9.
I'm now at turn 3, with a lot of frail but hard hitting units on the table. If I did enough damage on my drops I expect to be mopping up. If not, I'm going to be picking up a lot of models as I scramble to make points. I have enough CP to try to pick up a unit and drop it again, giving me flexibility.
Your list looks pretty solid. if you don't mind I have just a couple of suggestions to help improve it.
I'd chuck the nexos into the Twisted helix detachment as he will regen CP's on 5's if you have a Primus and/or clamavus on the table, he doesn't need to be in the C4AE detachment.
I'd then chuck the magus from the twisted helix detachment into the C4AE detachment and swap him for the Iconward. The Broodcoven strat doesn't stipulate the three he's must be in the same detachment even post FAQ and this way you can still do the three warlord traits you'd like but now the Twisted Helix detachment can become a Broodsurge detachment from Vigilus for an additional 2CP. From my experience so far this will ensure that the acolytes WILL make combat which is where most of your damage will be coming from by the looks of things.
But its also been my experience so far that Rusted Claw is better for the survival of our squishy acolytes than Twisted Helix, but it's a tough choice as +1 strength is also great....if they can get the charge.
EVERY other choice is suboptimal and/or unjustified in its use
He exclaimed giving no explanation or evidence
Could you be more rude and dismissive?
None of the load outs you shared are particularly good and definitely not the end all be all.
Seismic canons are not very good for example, they just add more s3 for a high price. Two neophytes with seizmic canons (34pts!)gets you 8.5 brood brothers which I'd always rather have. less shots at 24 but way more at 12 with orders and more wounds is always better. If I am spending 12 points on a gun I'd rather have mining lasers since it's a weapon you can't grab anywhere else, it's cheap for being a las canon and it fulfills a role the army lacks greatly. Ranged AT.
You seem to be hung up on range bands which makes little sense to me considering our army can deploy anywhere.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/02 15:29:01
Wow, and I was having issues against try hard lists using GEQ to screen or nurglings. Those are troops even. Ladies and gentleman you have now seen the new auto take battalion for imperium. Retire those scouts.
Wow those pricks literally wreck GSC ambush. You can't even charge from ambush to remove them because you will be 12.1" away and can't even declare, meaning you need to burn 3cp on a single unit just to end up with a standard 9" charge.
I hate that this army is basically turning into allies for Guard or Nids. There is next to no benefit to running them as your primary focus outside of fluff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Badablack wrote: Wait...so if they set up 9” from your board edge and there’s ambush tokens in range does that mean the ambushing unit just can’t come on the board?
I believe they already added commentary or it's in the FAQ that blips are not reinforcements, which is why the entire army can deploy hidden. So thankfully at least are deployment is safe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/02 19:02:45
Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote: How does the first turn deep strike work? Can't seem to find the page it was talked about.
The Tactical Reserves rule in the big faq 2 states that:
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.
The 'They Came From Below...' stratagem means you set up some units as blips during deployment, then when it's time to replace the blips with units (after deployment), you transfer them to being set up underground (reinforcements).
According to the GSCfaq, units set up as blips do count as being deployed on the table for the purposes of tactical reserves.
Page 79 – Cult Ambush Add the following sentence: ‘Matched Play: In matched play, units set up in ambush using this rule count as being set up on the battlefield for the purposes of Tactical Reserves.’
Because they were set up on the table during deployment, the argument is they get to bypass tactical reserves, and can arrive at the end of movement on turn 1. Kinda like orks using Da Jump.
Badablack wrote: Wait...so if they set up 9” from your board edge and there’s ambush tokens in range does that mean the ambushing unit just can’t come on the board?
I believe they already added commentary or it's in the FAQ that blips are not reinforcements, which is why the entire army can deploy hidden. So thankfully at least are deployment is safe.
So if we use They Came From Below removing 3 blips, these are reinforcements? or we can skip the rule from infiltrators with these 3 units?
babelfish wrote: I hammered together a list to try running at my next local, which is at the end of the month. It takes a lot of things I like and want to try, plus some old favorites that I have ready to go from Tyranids.
List
Spoiler:
Jormungandr Battalion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
25x Termagants (devourer)
3x Ravenrs (deathspitter, rending claws)
Twisted Helix Battalion
Magus
Patriarch
Primus
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 8x rock saw)
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 20x hand flamer)
10x Neophyte Hybrids (2x mining laser)
18 CP, lots of chaff clearing, access to APGITM, Acolyte Bomb, Flamer Bomb.
Primarch is the warlord, giving him the cc buff warlord trait. I pop Broodcoven to give the Primus the increased aura range and the C4AE Magus the C4AE warlord trait for the d3 CP.
For deployment I blip/deploy the Alphus, a Magus, the Neophytes, Iconward, Rippers, one Neurothrope, and the Nexos, for 12 units deployed. I spend 2 CP to tunnel Neurothrope and the Termagants in with the Raveners, and reserve the Primarch, Primus, other Magus, both Kelermorphs, Clamavus, and both Acolyte units.
At this point I have spent 3/18 CP and got back 1d3, leaving me with at least 16.
Turn 1 I Perfect Ambush the Sanctus, plink with the mining lasers and snipers, and hope that I have enough models on the field/have screened and hidden my units well enought that I survive to turn 2. The Iconward hangs out next to the Neophytes to help them not run. The Alphus can buff either then mining lasers or the Sanctus, depending on priority targets.I have 40 infantry models in 4 squads, 9 Ripper bases, and 6 characters on the table.
Turn 2 I tunnel in the Rippers with the Termagants and a Neurothrope. The 'gaunts really want to be in synapse for the alpha strike and keeping them fearless is useful, and the Neurothrope provides useful Tyranid powers. Smite/Catylist the turn he lands, and Horror the turn the Primarch comes in. I have almost never done a devilgaunt drop that didn't shoot twice, so 2 CP to double tap.
Depending on targets and screens I either bring in the the flamer Acolytes or drop the Saw bomb (saw Acolytes + characters) or both. I expect that in general the 'gaunts and the flamers come down turn 2, with the Kelermorphs, and the 'cc units come down turn 3. I expect to use 5 CP on the two drops, plus a reroll somewhere in there, which puts me at 8 CP, with one regenerated, so 9.
I'm now at turn 3, with a lot of frail but hard hitting units on the table. If I did enough damage on my drops I expect to be mopping up. If not, I'm going to be picking up a lot of models as I scramble to make points. I have enough CP to try to pick up a unit and drop it again, giving me flexibility.
Your list looks pretty solid. if you don't mind I have just a couple of suggestions to help improve it.
I'd chuck the nexos into the Twisted helix detachment as he will regen CP's on 5's if you have a Primus and/or clamavus on the table, he doesn't need to be in the C4AE detachment.
I'd then chuck the magus from the twisted helix detachment into the C4AE detachment and swap him for the Iconward. The Broodcoven strat doesn't stipulate the three he's must be in the same detachment even post FAQ and this way you can still do the three warlord traits you'd like but now the Twisted Helix detachment can become a Broodsurge detachment from Vigilus for an additional 2CP. From my experience so far this will ensure that the acolytes WILL make combat which is where most of your damage will be coming from by the looks of things.
But its also been my experience so far that Rusted Claw is better for the survival of our squishy acolytes than Twisted Helix, but it's a tough choice as +1 strength is also great....if they can get the charge.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
The C4AE started out as a vanguard, thus the Nexos in it, I forgot to swap him into the Twisted Helix when I expanded to 3 battalions. Good catch.
I don't have Vigilus and won't be getting it till next month. A Broodsurge would be good, I just can't run it at the moment. Note that I'm already running a C4AE Magus, so getting rid of the Helix one would free up some points.
Right now I'm inclined for Helix Acolytes because of the ability to delete a knight on the charge. I think I hard counter the Castilian + loyal 32 build and an viable against a wide range of opponents.
What do you think of dropping the Iconward? He makes a lot of sense keeping large blobs of Rusted Claw Neophytes alive, but I'm not sure about his value with the small squads I'm running. 10 GEQ only really lasts till they get looked at, 6+++ or no.
I could tease points around a bit, drop him, look to have some points for summoning. Hmmm. The magic number for 'gaunts is 20, if I drop the Iconward and trim to 20 'gaunts that leaves 93 points to build summoning units with. Or I could bulk up some cutters or drills on the flamer Acolytes.
babelfish wrote: I hammered together a list to try running at my next local, which is at the end of the month. It takes a lot of things I like and want to try, plus some old favorites that I have ready to go from Tyranids.
List
Spoiler:
Jormungandr Battalion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
25x Termagants (devourer)
3x Ravenrs (deathspitter, rending claws)
Twisted Helix Battalion
Magus
Patriarch
Primus
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 8x rock saw)
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 20x hand flamer)
10x Neophyte Hybrids (2x mining laser)
18 CP, lots of chaff clearing, access to APGITM, Acolyte Bomb, Flamer Bomb.
Primarch is the warlord, giving him the cc buff warlord trait. I pop Broodcoven to give the Primus the increased aura range and the C4AE Magus the C4AE warlord trait for the d3 CP.
For deployment I blip/deploy the Alphus, a Magus, the Neophytes, Iconward, Rippers, one Neurothrope, and the Nexos, for 12 units deployed. I spend 2 CP to tunnel Neurothrope and the Termagants in with the Raveners, and reserve the Primarch, Primus, other Magus, both Kelermorphs, Clamavus, and both Acolyte units.
At this point I have spent 3/18 CP and got back 1d3, leaving me with at least 16.
Turn 1 I Perfect Ambush the Sanctus, plink with the mining lasers and snipers, and hope that I have enough models on the field/have screened and hidden my units well enought that I survive to turn 2. The Iconward hangs out next to the Neophytes to help them not run. The Alphus can buff either then mining lasers or the Sanctus, depending on priority targets.I have 40 infantry models in 4 squads, 9 Ripper bases, and 6 characters on the table.
Turn 2 I tunnel in the Rippers with the Termagants and a Neurothrope. The 'gaunts really want to be in synapse for the alpha strike and keeping them fearless is useful, and the Neurothrope provides useful Tyranid powers. Smite/Catylist the turn he lands, and Horror the turn the Primarch comes in. I have almost never done a devilgaunt drop that didn't shoot twice, so 2 CP to double tap.
Depending on targets and screens I either bring in the the flamer Acolytes or drop the Saw bomb (saw Acolytes + characters) or both. I expect that in general the 'gaunts and the flamers come down turn 2, with the Kelermorphs, and the 'cc units come down turn 3. I expect to use 5 CP on the two drops, plus a reroll somewhere in there, which puts me at 8 CP, with one regenerated, so 9.
I'm now at turn 3, with a lot of frail but hard hitting units on the table. If I did enough damage on my drops I expect to be mopping up. If not, I'm going to be picking up a lot of models as I scramble to make points. I have enough CP to try to pick up a unit and drop it again, giving me flexibility.
Your list looks pretty solid. if you don't mind I have just a couple of suggestions to help improve it.
I'd chuck the nexos into the Twisted helix detachment as he will regen CP's on 5's if you have a Primus and/or clamavus on the table, he doesn't need to be in the C4AE detachment.
I'd then chuck the magus from the twisted helix detachment into the C4AE detachment and swap him for the Iconward. The Broodcoven strat doesn't stipulate the three he's must be in the same detachment even post FAQ and this way you can still do the three warlord traits you'd like but now the Twisted Helix detachment can become a Broodsurge detachment from Vigilus for an additional 2CP. From my experience so far this will ensure that the acolytes WILL make combat which is where most of your damage will be coming from by the looks of things.
But its also been my experience so far that Rusted Claw is better for the survival of our squishy acolytes than Twisted Helix, but it's a tough choice as +1 strength is also great....if they can get the charge.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
The C4AE started out as a vanguard, thus the Nexos in it, I forgot to swap him into the Twisted Helix when I expanded to 3 battalions. Good catch.
I don't have Vigilus and won't be getting it till next month. A Broodsurge would be good, I just can't run it at the moment. Note that I'm already running a C4AE Magus, so getting rid of the Helix one would free up some points.
Right now I'm inclined for Helix Acolytes because of the ability to delete a knight on the charge. I think I hard counter the Castilian + loyal 32 build and an viable against a wide range of opponents.
What do you think of dropping the Iconward? He makes a lot of sense keeping large blobs of Rusted Claw Neophytes alive, but I'm not sure about his value with the small squads I'm running. 10 GEQ only really lasts till they get looked at, 6+++ or no.
I could tease points around a bit, drop him, look to have some points for summoning. Hmmm. The magic number for 'gaunts is 20, if I drop the Iconward and trim to 20 'gaunts that leaves 93 points to build summoning units with. Or I could bulk up some cutters or drills on the flamer Acolytes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Trying to keep clutter down with spoiler tags is making the quotes weird, so I'm just going to reply to myself instead of fighting with it on mobile.
I really like the concept of holding 100 or so points in "summoning reserve". The ability to pull the unit you need on the turn you need it is very powerful.
The downside is that you have those points not in play for most of the game, you have to have a squishy character survive to use them, and you need to save 5 CP for late game in a CP hungry army to get it to go off.
The upside is a 4th to 6th turn drop, something most other armies cannot do, with a medium power unit tailored to the mission. 10 Acolytes are PL 6, and can bring 2 heavies + flamers at 100 points. Both versions of the assassin are PL 3, as is the Kelermorph. Neophytes are PL6 for 11+.
So, you have the ability to have 30 or so models hanging out waiting for you to need them. Key character needs deleted? Kelermorph or Sanctus. GEQ on an objective? Flame on. Annoying tank/MC your army can't reach? Have some rock saws. Objective that both sides are ignoring? Neophytes with a mining laser.
This is also about the only use for the rock cutter that I can think of. Rock cutters don't want to be in big units, because nothing that the special ability is useful against can survive 4 rock saws in the first place. The role for rock cutters appears to be to splash in your small Acolyte units, but Acolytes dont want to be small units. I can see taking the cutter over the saw in flame units, on the logic that two thirds of them will be dead by the time they get to charge something, but other than that summoning is all I see for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/02 23:05:10
Thanks Arson. Also when setting up blips and/or placing units underground do you have to tell your opponent which units are starting as blips and which are going underground?
OK well that's clearing things up a lot. If you haven't played ITC missions at all then you will have trouble relating to where I am coming from. You keep assuming secondaries are something simple to achieve that's not the core problem. The whole issue with GSC in ITC is they hand over VP's so easily it's nuts, while the enemy will tailor their army so it doesn't give away secondaries. That means we are stuck trying to grab board control objectives like recon. If I go for recon I need to be in 4 quarters with 4 units for 4 turns to max it out. Thats a long ass time to survive with some of the lists out there.
Let me break it down for you another way, when making an army for the ITC format, you can't just consider how you will kill enemy units, thats only part of it. You also need to look through the entire list of secondaries and tailor your own army so that it doesn't give up those VP's at all, or so it short changes the opponent. So for example one might intentionally run only 3 units with 7 or more wounds so the enemy can only ever get 3 points for big game hunter instead of the maximum 4. If your list does allow for 4 of big game hunter you would want those units to be durable as possible. Like take for instance eldar fliers, after hit mods they become quite durable, so not only are they good units but they also become a trap for secondaries.
Our army gives up, butchers bill, reaper, marked for death, head hunter and possibly big game hunter like a bad joke. Since we basically rely on reserves to be mobile and durable we also give up board control easier then you would think in order to try to get into assault. It's easy to say throw away lines like, reserve 75% of your army and crush them at once on turn 2, but any good tournament list with a competent general is going to zone you back and feed you sub-optimal targets in the process.
Look over that DW list I shared and tell me which secondaries you think are easy to get from it. The obvious choices to me are recon, behind enemy lines and ground control. The major issue is not being tabled in 4 turns while you sacrifice your units spreading out to get those. Turn 1 we basically are not scoring them due to reserves, or we do attempt to score those but we now are not removing the loyal 32.
This is why I have asked you to post a list you think would beat the DW army I posted in the ITC format. What secondaries would you go for and how? Will that list still be TAC?
That is why I said assume they're going to get 12 secondaries. Killing eighty GEQ and four units is easy, and there are enough gsc characters running around that they'll get a few of them somewhere during the match.
The flip side is that he also has a bunch of characters and four vet units to kill. The watchmaster, draigo, and the GMNGK all qualify for full Kingslayer points if they're the warlord. If they're not, you either have to accept 11 points and nab an extra round of holding more objectives or go for something a little more awkward like Old School and hope for that last turn kill (it should be pretty achievable to kill a screen unit T1, kill a warlord that's not one of the tough characters, and get something into his DZ). You're going to have to deal with the vet units and his characters anyway.
I wouldn't aim for more than one of the non-murder ones. Recon requires four units, which is doable, but needing to do it on four turns is risky. Behind Enemy Lines is start of your turn (after he gets a lovely chance to kill that unit) and requires four out of the five available turns (since there's not much you can get into his DZ before T1 starts, and on T1 is awkward), so is also iffy. Ground Control is end of game, so it's inherently risky, as you just might not have four units in the right spots (or at all if the game's particularly bloody). ITC obviously wants you to play in a certain way, so why fight it?
How are you giving up board control vs that DW list, though? He wants to (and you said did) castle up to benefit from his auras. If he moves it cuts his firepower in half (and foot marines are speed 6", anyway, so the deathball isn't going anywhere quickly). He can run the guard squads out to nab objectives, zone you back, and/or deny you landing areas, but it's super important to kill them T1 anyway (and getting most of them should be doable with whatever screen clearing mortars/wyverns/etc. you brought to actually be able to DS stuff when the 32 are everywhere). That leaves his beatstick characters, but if they're off holding objectives they're not chopping anything up, so you have the liberty of swarming whichever you want with your superior numbers.
As for a list, I default to four full units of acolytes with saws and flamers (saws obviously aren't useful here, but you need them for knights/vehicles), some BB blobs, the normal slew of characters, and allied officers, objective holders, and mortars/wyverns/whatever your preference is for screen clearance.
I played a game with what I thought was a killer GSC list and I definitely won but it took way too much time. 153 models is a lot to keep track of esp when using 2 different cult creeds. I think we need to check ourselves before any big events to be sure we can run the swarm of models we can easily bring.
Mental onslaught wile very effective takes forever to use esp if they have a way to ignore mortal wounds. I played vs a Kinght/ BA Smashcapt list for practice and this took forever as he poped a 5+++ strat and eventually I rolled a 1 for his 6 and it stopped it after 8ish actual wounds went through (out of like 12 so fairly average).
The trucks/Mining laser Neos were gold and did work. The bikes were great and again did good work. I tryed 2x 20 Brood bros with a Tempister prime for FRFSRF shanaginins and they did well. All our stuff works but make sure you are VERY familiar with your army and if possible use unit trays to speed things up or you will die to time.
I think ally Nidz or guard for some stompy stuff may be needed even if it's just to consolidate some points into effective smaller units.
As annoying as the new infiltrators are I think we should look back to the original intent of this thread and think of some tactics to counter them. Raging wont do any good even though I was extremely salty when I first saw them.
So my first thought was stealers, now they aren't a perfect solution but we may be able to slingshot them depending how the opponent deploys. I can see the major issue with this being against things like Guiliman castles with infiltrators as the outer ring.
Finding a reliable source of damage 2 with reasonable ap isn't easy even with access to allies, we need to find a dissie ravager equivalent...
Hazzer22 wrote: As annoying as the new infiltrators are I think we should look back to the original intent of this thread and think of some tactics to counter them. Raging wont do any good even though I was extremely salty when I first saw them.
So my first thought was stealers, now they aren't a perfect solution but we may be able to slingshot them depending how the opponent deploys. I can see the major issue with this being against things like Guiliman castles with infiltrators as the outer ring.
Finding a reliable source of damage 2 with reasonable ap isn't easy even with access to allies, we need to find a dissie ravager equivalent...
Any suggestions anyone?
Umm Kellermorph......
Crazy Idea a Truck with a unit of 5-9 Acolytes and a Kellermorph. Rush forward (maby even use Perfect ambush on first turn to boos it d6") to get to the offending sniper screen. Then unload on them..... Even if the truck gets popped you still have a good CC unit and the kellermorph to deal with them.
1000pts Space Marines 
1200pts Tau 
2500pts Blood Angels 
3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades 
and 1700pts Daemons 
450pts Imperial Knights 
