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KurtAngle2 wrote: Honestly I've been playing Mono-GSC lately and I found it to be more powerful than Tyr + GSC. Tyranids are a one-trick pony at best right now and literally eats you CPs for the classic GS Slingshot combo + attack twice, leaving you with few CPs to do all the good tricks GSC has to offer.
Also I've been building all my lists using a hefty contingent of Neophytes with support Characters like Sanctus/Alphus/Iconward to give the Cult a decent early game (since Brood Brothers literally do no damage and are there only for detachment filling purposes) and players like Nick Navanati who have been playing GSC since their release in February seem to agree with me (I decided to go with Hive Cult Neophytes and Grenade Launcher, Nick went for Bladed Cog Neophytes with Webbers and Mining Lasers).
How do the Hive Cult creed work out for you? Does it give a lot of resilience?
Not really, it's the best though for damage output since it gives an additional +1 to Hit on one unit and the reroll 1s to hit that you prolly give to a Brood coven Magus. The creed bonuses are not bad per se but you are taking that for Warlord + Stratagem which are the best thing about it.
Ah of course, that makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for the explanation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Could you share an example of what one of your lists look like?
It doesn't look like it made it over here, but Anvil Industries released their Boilerplate Renegades. A squad of 10 neophytes runs 35 USD which makes it cheaper than GW and about the same as what you can get from a discounter.
Blinkingspirit wrote: Newbie GSC player here (though not new to 40k). Does someone have Unit grading guide?
You mean something like this?
Very good:
- Acolytes in big units with either rocksaws or handflamers
- Neophytes with mining lasers
- Patriarch
- Atalan Jackals with demo charges
- Jackal Alphus
- Aberrants
- Iconward in a broodsurge detachment
Useful:
- Brood brother heavy weapon squad with mortars
- Kelermorph
- Clamavus
- Sanctus w sniper rifle
- brood brothers without any extra equipment
- Magus
- Primus
This is just my hunch based on what is usually recommended. I'm not a particularly competent player, so take with a pinch of salt :-)
Automatically Appended Next Post: And welcome to the cult!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/18 18:46:27
A = Autoinclude or so strong that you're deliberately nerfing yourself by not taking it B = Very good C = Decent D = Niche pick F = Unplayable
Patriarch : A (The best HQ our Codex has to offer. He's a melee powerhouse who makes the best use of our combat oriented Relics/Psychic Powers/Warlord Traits whilst simultaneously unlocking the Broodcoven stratagem and granting you a 6" fearless bubble) Magus : C (This HQ is generally picked to give unlock the second Psychic power in a detachment and for a supporting Warlord trait like Single Minded Obsession/Hivelord. His price is however too steep at 80 pts since he doesn't offer anything else aside from the aforementioned Psychic Power and for 45 pts more we can get a Patriarch that casts the same way a Magus does. No idea why they didn't give him the ability to cast 2 powers per turn since he really does nothing else) Primus : B (Despite being a cheap "combat" oriented HQs, he's there to provide a +1 WS Aura and a reroll 1s to wound on a designated unit when deployed. Best HQ to give Alien Majesty Warlord Trait since it gives a bit more freedom in the positioning department when charging with your Acolytes/Aberrants.) Acolyte Iconward : A (Our cheapest HQs which is also needed for the Deliverance Broodsurge formation which is as of now autoinclude for every GSC list since it gives you in tandem with a Clavamus a rerollable 8"/7" as C4AE charge to your deadliest unit per points in the army. Also gives you a FNP like save coupled with a reroll to morale and eventually +1 Strenght when equipped with the Relic banner) Abominant : D (Desperately needs either a price decrease or a removal of the -1 to hit. Having only 3 attacks and being forced to either take the Hammer relic or be near a Primus not to suffer the nerf he has received is too much when you consider the fact that the bonus he gives to Aberrants is an aura and not that great too. I'd rather get a Patriarch at his points level since he's only 20 point cheaper...) Jackal Alphus : C (Not an autoinclude since many GSC builds go full melee and leave only Brood Brothers on the board. But if you're going for a shooty GSC force on the ground you need at least 1 if not 2 Alphus for a +1 BS on chosen unit within 36". The added shooting is a nice bonus to have and the price point seems spot on)
Acolyte Hybrids : A (Definitely the best unit in our codex given the complete reliance we have on them for anti-infantry and anti-tank purposes when equipped with Rock saws. They're the staple unit in all our lists and can be equipped for any job. 7 points per model well spent and even if they die to a stiff breeze they're perhaps the most killy unit per points in the game) Neophytes : B (Your other proper GSC unit is a 5 points per model guard model with a LD 8 and an added Autopistol. You're not playing them stock because they would be fundamentally played as Brood Brothers but at a pricier cost so you're taking certain Special/Heavy weapons depending on the Cult Creed you choose) Brood Brothers : B (Good for filling detachments and deployment requirements on board, for anything else they're somewhat decent at taking damage but piss poor at anything else)
Hybrid Metamorphs : D (Technically a more killy Acolyte but with a different Tactical Role and of course pricier. They would technically be our best damage dealer the codex has to offer but they offer neither the flexibility of Acolytes nor the necessary Tactical Role needed to fill the detachments that unlock more CPs and additional characters) Aberrant : A (The most tanky unit our codex has to offer and equipped to deal with anything since they are both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle at the same time. Strong as hell when given the Twisted Helix Cult Creed if only for the stratagem or in an Anointed Throng formation to unlock a similar stratagem to the Twisted Helix's one) Purestrain Genestealers : F (A complete insult to all GSC Players. Pricier, no weapon options, no Cult Creeds and fewer sinergies/stratagem than Hivestrain ones. They serve no purpose in our army and even at the same price point of Hivestrains they wouldn't have been taken at all. Utterly shocking that they thought we would be paying 15 PPM for these) Clavamus : A (Gives +1" to charges. This is enough for this character to be AUTOTAKE whenever you build a GSC list) Locus : D (Too pricey for a mediocre fighter, bad rules for a bodyguard of our characters. His bodyguard rule is completely unplayable since it only works on a wound basis and not on the entire damage dealt. Whilst you could be saving a lascannon on a 4+ thanks to a nearby model dying within 3", this guy would be taking an equivalent mortal wound per EACH wound the character would have suffered from such lascannon on a 2+ in an army where EVERYBODY is technically a bodyguard for a character) Sanctus : B (C if equipped with Knife) (When equipped with the Relic Sniper Rifle this guy can be a real pain in the ass for Characters and even worse if they happen to be Psykers as well. The knife variant is generally not worth it since it suffers from so many additional variables and gets to be attacked in a melee fight if he doesn't kill what he eventually charged.) Kelermorph : A (IKSO, SIX PISTOLS!) (60 mere points for a Character that shoots 6 BS2+S4 AP-1 D2 shots with additional rolls for every successfull initial hit whilst being able to target characters as well and letting other units near him reroll 1s to hit when killing something? One of the reasons for multiple detachments is also the ability to take TWO of them! Let's go, Six Pistols!) Nexos : B (Not bad, not great. It's 50 points for 2-3 CPs at most and objective holding. Take it if you have spare points or going Mono-Cult, else it's not necessary) Biophagus : C (If you have spare points and a unit of Aberrants the one time Buff might be worthwhile (and not being an aura is certainly nice since he can go smack something after having done his job. Not terribly strong but at 35 points per model this guy still brings a better buff than the Abominant)
Achilles Ridgerunner : D (Not as cheap as we initially hoped, very limited in sinergies, no Cult Creed and being loaded with a Heavy weapon on a BS4+ 14" platform without a way to ignore its Heavy penalty is just bad. Also we can already smash big things in both Melee and Shooting when our troops are properly equipped for the job so I don't see a reason - perhaps the cool factor? - to ever bring this model into your list) Atalant Jackals : B (They're either equipped with their Bombs to deal with Medium/Big sized things or taken in a Brigade to fill a Fast Attack slot and reach objectives to score points. Their damage is bad but their durability seems fine at only 10 points per model with T4 and -1 to hit as well) Sentinels of any kind : C (Just slot fillers and objective holders, don't expect much more but they're surprisingly durable for the points)
Leman Russes : D (BS4+ and no equivalent Regiment bonuses make them redudant and statistically bad at dealing their job compared to the rest of the codex) Brood Brothers Heavy Weapons Squad : B (Great objective holders, they fill the Heavy Support slots in a Brigade with a classic 3x3 Mortar Teams) Goliath Rockgrinders : D (A melee vehicle with almost all its weapon being designated as long range support with no way to ignore the Heavy penalties on a BS4+ platform at best and no way to deepstrike like our outher melee units. The single way to play them is using a Clearance Incinerator which happens to be the most expensive weapon in our codex, skyrocketing its cost to 110 pts per model - or 16 Acolytes if you want to use them as our measure of comparison -. Great concept, horrible execution) Goliath Truck : C (A lightweight transport and a shooting platform designed for Neophytes. Its open topped rule at least gives our onboard Neophytes a way to benefit from Alphus +1 BS on designated targets. If they were 15/20 points cheaper we would be taking them in some lists I believe but now they're quite niche if you ask me) Cult Chimera : F (Useless since it only trasports Brood Brothers and their role is just to fill slots and provide cheap troops. Never take them) Tectonic Fragdrill : F (Expensive for what it offers, bad rules and worst of all it occupies a precious Detachment...no just no please!)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/18 20:25:37
Just to clarify, Biophagus can buff as many Aberrant units as you have in your army, but only one per movement phase.
For instance, Nanavati has 3x10 Aberrants in his ETC list, so his Biophagus (with Familiar) can buff all three units during a game, for 35pts. Pretty good, but as noted, not an autotake.
N.I.B. wrote: Just to clarify, Biophagus can buff as many Aberrant units as you have in your army, but only one per movement phase.
For instance, Nanavati has 3x10 Aberrants in his ETC list, so his Biophagus (with Familiar) can buff all three units during a game, for 35pts. Pretty good, but as noted, not an autotake.
Yeah but most times it's generally happening one time due to the deep strike + ability restriction
Lord Clinto wrote: I don't recall seeing anyone taking/talking about taking a Baneblade or Shadowsword in a SHA detachment. Is this not a thing?
Imho, the negative thing with the huge tanks is that the meta is geared at killing knights. So a superheavy generally dies too soon to do much good. It's definitely a thing, but it is not hardcore competitive.
Lord Clinto wrote: I don't recall seeing anyone taking/talking about taking a Baneblade or Shadowsword in a SHA detachment. Is this not a thing?
Imho, the negative thing with the huge tanks is that the meta is geared at killing knights. So a superheavy generally dies too soon to do much good. It's definitely a thing, but it is not hardcore competitive.
My mistake, I wasn't talking about competitive play. I meant in a more FLGS setting. My store has a bunch of players that use Knights, with one that uses 3 Gallants and a Castellan.
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"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."
Lord Clinto wrote: I don't recall seeing anyone taking/talking about taking a Baneblade or Shadowsword in a SHA detachment. Is this not a thing?
Imho, the negative thing with the huge tanks is that the meta is geared at killing knights. So a superheavy generally dies too soon to do much good. It's definitely a thing, but it is not hardcore competitive.
My mistake, I wasn't talking about competitive play. I meant in a more FLGS setting. My store has a bunch of players that use Knights, with one that uses 3 Gallants and a Castellan.
There have been many lists with 3x Leman Tank Commanders or 3x Vultures but none with Super Heavies...they're generally a huge points sink in an unfavourable meta game unfortunately
Just curious, how would you guys change Purestrain Genestealers to make them competitive? I feel like even if they got Cult Creeds and a point reduction, our other units would still outshine them, which is kinda sad when you'd think they'd be a premiere unit for Genestealer Cults.
Same question for the Ridgerunner — I absolutely love the model, but it's pretty bad compared to Jackals. I think giving it the ability to move+shoot without penalty would be a step in the right direction when combined with an Alphus's +1 to hit — but the weapon loadout is pretty subpar too. It seems like the heavy mining laser is the only decent option; the Heavy Mortar is garbage, and the missile launcher is, well, just a missile launcher for a 69pt unit. Adding a Clearance Incinerator would be interesting, but now you're up to 84 points for two heavy flamers...
I just don't see anything it could do better than Jackals.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/19 18:54:08
Khorzain wrote: Just curious, how would you guys change Purestrain Genestealers to make them competitive? I feel like even if they got Cult Creeds and a point reduction, our other units would still outshine them, which is kinda sad when you'd think they'd be a premiere unit for Genestealer Cults.
Same question for the Ridgerunner — I absolutely love the model, but it's pretty bad compared to Jackals. I think giving it the ability to move+shoot without penalty would be a step in the right direction when combined with an Alphus's +1 to hit — but the weapon loadout is pretty subpar too. It seems like the heavy mining laser is the only decent option; the Heavy Mortar is garbage, and the missile launcher is, well, just a missile launcher for a 69pt unit. Adding a Clearance Incinerator would be interesting, but now you're up to 84 points for two heavy flamers...
I just don't see anything it could do better than Jackals.
In the case of Genestealers sadly they're completely out of place in the context of a GSC army.
Concerning the Ridgerunner, hefty price drops + Creeds might make it decent in a Neophyte heavy army with multiple Jackal Alphuses.
Buddy of mine finally got some and now his Infiltrators got me worried. I was think Deep Striking some Jackals 20 inches away in terrain, pop the start to make them untargettable if they aren’t the closest, them next turn run up and demo charge them.
Or perfect ambush some Cot4EE Acolytes and a Clamavus and pray that 3d6 with a +2 would get me there.
Buddy of mine finally got some and now his Infiltrators got me worried. I was think Deep Striking some Jackals 20 inches away in terrain, pop the start to make them untargettable if they aren’t the closest, them next turn run up and demo charge them.
Or perfect ambush some Cot4EE Acolytes and a Clamavus and pray that 3d6 with a +2 would get me there.
Neophytes if you're going for a onboard shooting presence...they're 110 pts for 5 Primaris wounds so unless spammed in multiples they aren't really a "counter" to us. Also they can't be everywhere on the board
Goliath Truck : C (A lightweight transport and a shooting platform designed for Neophytes. Its open topped rule at least gives our onboard Neophytes a way to benefit from Alphus +1 BS on designated targets. If they were 15/20 points cheaper we would be taking them in some lists I believe but now they're quite niche if you ask me)
are you sure about that? not sure if buff apply to passangers
Goliath Truck : C (A lightweight transport and a shooting platform designed for Neophytes. Its open topped rule at least gives our onboard Neophytes a way to benefit from Alphus +1 BS on designated targets. If they were 15/20 points cheaper we would be taking them in some lists I believe but now they're quite niche if you ask me)
are you sure about that? not sure if buff apply to passangers
It does thanks to Open Topped rule (although they do not benefit from Aura rerolls since they are not a modifier). It's literally a question that we asked at least 5 times since April
Goliath Truck : C (A lightweight transport and a shooting platform designed for Neophytes. Its open topped rule at least gives our onboard Neophytes a way to benefit from Alphus +1 BS on designated targets. If they were 15/20 points cheaper we would be taking them in some lists I believe but now they're quite niche if you ask me)
are you sure about that? not sure if buff apply to passangers
It does thanks to Open Topped rule (although they do not benefit from Aura rerolls since they are not a modifier). It's literally a question that we asked at least 5 times since April
So here's a question; especially in a smaller game, with less blips on the table - there is an opportunity to pull them all off the table during your first turn (They came from below and Return to the shadows). Would you do it? If so, under what conditions?
hangnailnz wrote: So here's a question; especially in a smaller game, with less blips on the table - there is an opportunity to pull them all off the table during your first turn (They came from below and Return to the shadows). Would you do it? If so, under what conditions?
Yes, for thematic reasons . Also in maelstorm stuff I would use stratagem to not show my objectives to the enemy.
hangnailnz wrote: So here's a question; especially in a smaller game, with less blips on the table - there is an opportunity to pull them all off the table during your first turn (They came from below and Return to the shadows). Would you do it? If so, under what conditions?
As long as the scenario doesn't have a rule that says you immediately loose if you have zero models on the table :-) I can definitely see it as a way to deny the opponent any use out of their first one or two shooting phases.
Main rules say that you lose if you have no models on the field any turn other than the first, so this is a legit tactic... Just curious about downsides. The first of course is that it is impossible to achieve any objectives in your T1 (unless there is one to have no models in your DZ... )
I originally made that mistake thinking it was like knives/chainswords but nope it’s 1 per every pick attack. Which gets nasty with Might from Beyond and the Biophagus giving them extra attacks.
hangnailnz wrote: So here's a question; especially in a smaller game, with less blips on the table - there is an opportunity to pull them all off the table during your first turn (They came from below and Return to the shadows). Would you do it? If so, under what conditions?
Its dangerous. It gives up all potential first turn shooting and concedes first Strike points. It also gives your opponent 2 movement phases to get anywhere he wants to go before you come in from reserve. I'd only do it if your opponent was doing something screwy and unbalanced like a Valiant and 2 Armigiers in a 1000 point game or Nothing but Wyverns, Basilisks, and Mortars.
I'd like some feedback on a Bike Heavy list that looks to restrict the movement of your opponents; Do you think running the Acolytes in small squads really hurts them? They probably aren't coming in until Turn 3 when I can clear out all the screens and I should have +1 Charge rerolling which is about 2/3 success rate on charges. I think the weakness of the list is a fast army that gets down the field and either spreads out to limit my deepstriking or gets on Ttp of my neophytes screening my tank commanders.
Also the sprue doesn't "Include multiple autoguns", it includes two, simply by virtue of there being TWO identical sprues.
I would wait until the box is actually out before saying this--we've had sprues missing from quite a few webstore breakdowns before.
So there are two different sprues in the Jackals box, and you can make all four bikes and the wolfquad with them. There aren't any identical sprues — it says there's only 89 components in the box, and that matches what they've shown us on the webstore.
But yeah, there's only a single autogun in the kit (along with only one power axe/bolt pistol), which lines up with the idea that only the Jackal leader can take those items.
-edit/clarifications
GW would NEVER give us 1 bit of a weapon the whole unit (or most of) can take. (cough cough rock saws cough cough)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/31 14:55:13
drakerocket wrote: I'm having a little bit of a hard time envisioning what a solid army looks like, while avoiding the things it feels like we're punished for taking.
Heavy support slot is pretty slim without LRs, elite slot feels pretty over-packed. FA I guess will be bikes, though their exact role seems kind of scattered brained at this point?
Troops...seem solid~ish? But they're more or less deep striking IG but without orders and more expensive? That isn't bad, I guess, but no one is really running guard hordes exactly.
It feels like the better build is going to be a patrol or small brigade of kraken stealers (because ours are awful?), a supreme command of tank commanders are the real "base" of the army. And then I guess we build from there? Hard to see at the moment though outside of I guess DS'ing aberrants and character assassins we really bring to the fore.
Okay, I'm not going to write a list, but off the bat, my interpretations so far:
Staples:
Nexos seems really good. So many good stratagems, even more so if combined with Tyranids, this guy might make you back 6 CP over the course of the game - thats a battalions worth, probably want to take him for like 50 pts or whatever he is, and the other stuff is just a bonus.
Patriarch is really good. Fearless bubble, cost effective offense wise, character, and has the strongest Mental Onslaught cast in the game.
Magus is really good too, so are the familiars. I'd say you want at least one of all the above 3 units, almost without fail.
Acolytes are really good troops at 7pts. Definitely consider hand flamers too. Similar to Bloodletters for Khorne, and Tzaangors for TSons, I feel like these are our new bread and butter for offense. They also belong in the deepstrike category because they do that very well too, but I think they belong here as well.
Potential pieces:
Primus is a force multiplier. +1 to hit for the meat of the army is significant. May even be an auto-include like the above units, closest thing to it.
Kelermorph seems to be his biggest impact will be making your opponent screen and punishing bad play, but he's cheap enough that just doing this and even taking down a few infantry might still be very worthwhile.
Biophagus seems like hes really good, he's just so cheap and the impact may be significant especially if you tag multiple units over the course of the game.
Acolyte Iconward depends on what you're doing, but I'm pretty sure you can get Aberrants down to 3+ FNP with one near them combined with a strat which is just... brutal for how much damage they can put out. Combined with maybe Bladed Cog might be an absurdly hard to lift unit in the vein of Talos. This guy's pretty straight forward - "do I want to spend 40 pts to give an FNP bubble and does my list play in such a way to benefit from that?"
Cult Leman Russ are always good to add more staying power to GSC and just let you put some tanky bois on the table to push around the field and likely do consistent damage every single turn while the rest of their army is focused on your big threats. I think these are pretty good and should never be looked over too hastily.
Jackals, once we get the ruling ironed out on them it seems they have the potential to be quite good or bad. Just gonna put them here tentatively so they don't get looked over. At the end of the day I think they are cheap, durable and speedy enough to hold ground efficiently, and they'd be great in like Codex: Tau or something, but I think their role might just be a bit unnecessary in the GSC dex unless they can actually threaten to do something offensively.
I personally think the Locus is being slept on a little, he can eat a few wounds from a Patriach or something to keep him alive in a pinch, but above all I think for 40 pts, he's just got a good statline worth his cost, especially as a deepstriker should you need him and with the many bonus's available that he can just pick up by being there. However, I'm one of the people who thinks Lictors are really good now at 33 pts, and you can probably see the similarities here, so fair warning that I recognise this one might possibly[/b] be a more personal thing - but then again maybe not. I don't think he'll ever be a [i]bad inclusion tbh, especially as his cheap as chips price.
Deepstrikers:
Clamavus seem really good for any sort of deepstriking. Auto-take if you're doing any sort of thing like that, he's the new Primus.
Broodsurge Deliverance Neophytes are really good for units that don't need any more help to get into CC. 20 man strong ones + Might will actually hurt too when the stratagem goes off. Cult of the 4 Arm Emperor (C4E?) makes sure every unit will almost always get into combat since that will total to +2 to a charge that you can re-roll, but going up to S4 with Twisted Helix will make them hit harder and they still have +1 to charge.
Purestrains still gain more from Might cast than anything else, if you are willing to spend CP on the 3D6 charge strat, they get into combat really consistently out of deepstrike. They will also are the best units for multi-assaulting a big line of defenders, and will shred things when they double fight. They are no longer the go-to assault unit, but they are still the best target for targeted buffs and get more of them than any other unit. I'll probably consider taking a full unit in every list just because they put out the scariest threat bubble in the dex to non-tank units, and you can do a lot of trickery with deployment to always make sure they are in the right position to not get wrecked, and apply their damage.
Anointed Throng Abberants with Picks are really good (making an Abominant a good choice too if you take them), and you can buff the Abominant to absurd levels of fightiness with different relics and traits etc. These can probably work without deepstrike too as the units are small enough to fit in transports, so maybe they don't belong strictly in this category. Abberants are also great recievers of targeted buffs, and Twisted Helix or Might will really let them reach excellent levels of strength with their Power Picks. Hammers are good too. Take a Primus and an Abominant if you take any sort of real investment into these guys.
These are my picks for good units in the dex so far. I don't know how to evaluate the transports just yet, none of them are too bad really. I think most of the rest of the units are a bit of a whiff but thats okay, thats most the dex up there. I'll add my opinions about traits and strats soon, but this is where I stand on the units. However I will quickly add that I think the D3 CP Warlord trait is by far the best, and that every list should have at least one C4E detachment for probably that, but definitely the "Vect" equivalent.
Not sure if there is a big summary somewhere. This was on one of the first couple pages.
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Caprican wrote: GW would NEVER give us 1 bit of a weapon the whole unit (or most of) can take. (cough cough rock saws cough cough)
Of course not, they do give you enough hand flamers though, which everyone acolyte can take. I find plenty of uses for blasting charges as well as rock saws, so it all works out.
Caprican wrote: GW would NEVER give us 1 bit of a weapon the whole unit (or most of) can take. (cough cough rock saws cough cough)
Of course not, they do give you enough hand flamers though, which everyone acolyte can take. I find plenty of uses for blasting charges as well as rock saws, so it all works out.
You mustve misunderstood me, I was being sarcastic, as I currently have 7 rocksaws and find myself needing at least 13 more for the lists I want to be playing. I have plenty of acolytes, just not rocksaws, and making me spend $40 a rocksaw is insane.
- 8k /// 
- 5k /// 
- 5k /// 
- 6k /// 
- 6k /// 
- 4k /// 
- 4k /// Cust - 3k 
. Also in maelstorm stuff I would use stratagem to not show my objectives to the enemy.
)
1000pts Space Marines 
1200pts Tau 
2500pts Blood Angels 
3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades 
and 1700pts Daemons 
