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 Marmatag wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Is there actual evidence of codex 2.0 for anyone in 2019? I haven't seen it.

Well, I do suspect a refinement of the current rules (similar to Age of Sigmar 2.0) coming this summer. While they have Sisters slated for the launch, it's not unrealistic for them to update the Marine codex not long after now that all major factions have had their books updated.

I get it - i'm just saying, i haven't seen any actual evidence that this is the plan.

8th edition hasn't even hit the 2 year mark.

7th edition only lasted 2 years. Really, we're coming to the last quarter of this edition.

Well, I've played against the GSC thrice now. Twice with DG and once with pure Custodes, and I have to say that they are good. They are not OP at all, just a really really solid army, but dies easily. They are indeed a glasshammer and as such need a good general to not just crumble. They are still not in the top three armies I dread to play against.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Dem feels when “Herple Derple Kelerschmerple” is the best thing you’ve ever said on a board where you’ve made 2000 odd posts.

So kelermorph allready has three nicknames :

Jeans Dealer. The gunslinging Terrorist.

Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple.

Fritzl, because he bags your charachters and brings them into the Keller.

He has a poncho.

Nick names should be directed at notable poncho related characters like Kurt Russell from The Thing and Clint Eastwood.

I give you;

Cult Russell & Cult Eastwood.

These can also be used for another poncho wielding xeno Dahyak Grehk with;

Kroot Russell & Kroot Eastwood

Mental Onslaught is like 2++ save bullgryns, Untouchable Solitaires and freakshow mind war 20MW combos: a wonderful thing for Timmies on the internet to freak out about because they don't understand compound probability and the real cost to get everything to fall into place perfectly.

Can we at least get some actual game and tournament feedback before we start burning books and banning armies? Yes some of their stuff looks strong but all of this so far is theory hammer.

 Marmatag wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Shut up marine lover, actually the GSC Stratagems can really be considered "Stratagems" and not "enhancement of an unit offensive power that should be considered into the unit's cost) since they're mostly positioning/deployment/tactical advantages and not plain "kill more"

Lol.

When you calm down, it would be fun to hear your point when it's expressed intelligibly.

It has been a while since I've seen a insult that base.

Anyway, Kellermorph ended up being extremely strong; it is an autotake per detachment (You are probably going to take two) and is a perfect example of game before fluff.

In fact a decent portion of this codex is a good example of game before fluff, Which isn't a big deal. Except that for some reason a large portion of 40k codices are stuck with the reverse, like orks, CSM, SM, Necrons, and ironically IG (might be the only case this ed. where a fluffy army is actually good because of how the core rules changed). So yea, either they can actually give people usable codices to actually play a game with or some of the designers are just starry-eyed at the prospect of making a codice for their favorite bit of lore.

Thats my biggest problem with GSC.

I really like their rules but they feel totally detached from the fluff. And thats not a bad thing but when everysingle other codex is the inverse, they don't feel like they belong to this game system. I mean the stratagems are very cool in general but then all the weapons, bonuses and rules surrounding their characters ,psychic powers and bonuses are like "excuse me wtf".

And I was ready to make some mental concesions to having miner-alien-terrorists fighting Custodes but ... not like this

 Galas wrote:
Thats my biggest problem with Kelermorph.

I really like Kellermorphs rules but they feel totally detached from the fluff. And thats not a bad thing but when everysingle other codex is the inverse, Kellermorph doesnt feel like they belong to this game system.

Ftfy.

Nothing else in this release is anything out of the fluff/rules ordinary. Maybe super buffed up aberrants? But they're at least grotesque - sized monstrosities with thunder hammers, and they're far less durable than a grotesque/spawn/beast of chaos or other comparably beefy looking unit.

Neophytes have guard stats.

Jackals are rough riders with no lances and -1 to hit/better movement.

A ridge runner is two sentinels that cost twice as much.

A rock grinder is a glorified razorback.

Acolytes are glass cannon-y ork boyz.

Barring Keller, none of the characters have particularly crazy auras or abilities. FNP 6+ aura, charge+morale boost, fearless aura out of the big guy, the biggest difference to them is some are conditional or unreliable being dependent on the character accomplishing something. They have nothing approaching the fame warping madness of a guillimam aura or an azrael aura, or even IG orders if rumors are to be believed.

the_scotsman wrote:
Mental Onslaught is like 2++ save bullgryns, Untouchable Solitaires and freakshow mind war 20MW combos: a wonderful thing for Timmies on the internet to freak out about because they don't understand compound probability and the real cost to get everything to fall into place perfectly.

Yeah, I used the 7th ed Harlies Mirror if Minds ability, which is identical to the current Mental Onslaught, in a Freakshow list when that set up was far more potent than this edition. I only ever got those ducks to line up properly once, nuking a Riptide turn 1 and that relied on a lot of luck, but most of the time the effort wasn't worth it as you ended up with units out of position and potentially easy pray.

I'm not worried about the deep striking handflamers as my front lines tend to be Talos, which laugh in the face of handflamers, Gortesques which do the same, and/or the "Unlucky 15" Kabalites who are meant to die in service to their Archon.

The Abberant Bomb with a 6" charge out of deepstrike, those Talos and/or Grots are the only real target of value for them and I have a Vexators mask to make them fight last, at which point they get pasted before they ever hit.

I'm expecting some really good games ahead as the two Nid/GSC players in my group get some new toys but at no point am I going into those games thinking I have no chance. Honestly as a pure Drukhari player it's Imperial Soup with Castellans that scare me more, without Doom they are very difficult to deal with.

I think this codex just piles onto the haves and have nots this edition.

I play marines. This codex just makes me look at the tools/points in my dex and question what GW was thinking. The Hellen Keller is another unit that straight up invalidates any primaris models I wanted to bring (he gets his points back in one round of shoot vs aggressors, hell blasters or inceptors). Deepstriking on the entire army, good melee beat sticks, very mobile units, great strats and psychic powers. Just looking at their points and stats is bad enough but you start looking at their buffs, special abilities, strats and powers and it's pretty obvious this dex is on a whole other level than my power armored boys.

I feel like this cements that GWs wants the army power level at around dark eldar/guard. GSC seem to be a little above but really close which makes it hard for me to scream about this codex being OP gak. I think yanarri, eldar soup and some imperial soup builds are a bit above and CWE, orcs, TS soup, DG, nids, tau and others are a bit below. But the gap between those tier A,B and C codexes and marines and necrons is huge.

GW putting out this dex after the lack of nerfs in CA 2018 seems to strongly suggest that GW wants that power level for most armies. It's just frustrating to own and play an army that is on the other end of the power curve with no relief in sight.

I think to people who play the underpowered armies units like the kellermorph or acolytes or abberants or sniper biker or the stratagems or psychic powers just seem so OP its crazy. But then you weigh those against ravagers, grots, tank commanders, guardsmen, cat lady, hemlocks, reapers, spears, knights, broadsides, drones, lootas, ahriman, etc and they really don't look that out of place.

To people who play the "good" armies this edition the sky doesn't look like it's falling at all. I think GSC fits right in with the most powerful of the codexes. For me, this is just another codex that my power armored dudes just are not on the same level with and skews the average army power level even further from something marines can deal with.

Arson Fire wrote:
Why are people going nuts over the 20 hand flamer thing again?
Doesn't seem much different to a tyranid devilgaunt bomb to me.

A 240 point unit of 30 deepstriking termagants with devourers. 2CP to make them fire twice. So 180 S4 shots at 18" range.
Tyranids have had this since their codex dropped, and it barely shows up in lists.

How is 70 S3 auto hits for their genestealer cult buddies suddenly breaking the game?

I feel like this is a red herring.

Either you need a lictor and pheromone trail for 1 CP or a tunnel unit and 1 CP and a burrower - no one seems to like the lictor.

That's a way bigger investment to be equally effective. That extra 140+ points (more than halfway to a battalion) is better served getting more CP to use the stratagems, which is why it wouldn't likely see use.

 Marmatag wrote:
Is there actual evidence of codex 2.0 for anyone in 2019? I haven't seen it.

No - but just going along the lines of the next codex being super OP if there was one I'd be ecstatic.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Why are people going nuts over the 20 hand flamer thing again?
Doesn't seem much different to a tyranid devilgaunt bomb to me.

A 240 point unit of 30 deepstriking termagants with devourers. 2CP to make them fire twice. So 180 S4 shots at 18" range.
Tyranids have had this since their codex dropped, and it barely shows up in lists.

How is 70 S3 auto hits for their genestealer cult buddies suddenly breaking the game?

I feel like this is a red herring.

Either you need a lictor and pheromone trail for 1 CP or a tunnel unit and 1 CP and a burrower - no one seems to like the lictor.

That's a way bigger investment to be equally effective. That extra 140+ points (more than halfway to a battalion) is better served getting more CP to use the stratagems, which is why it wouldn't likely see use.

Average 90 S4 hits at 18" (which will also re-roll 1's to wound) vs average 70 S3 hits at 6".
Yes you do have to pay a bit more for it, because it's not equally effective. It's significantly more effective. 17.5 dead marines vs 7.78 dead marines.

Arson Fire wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Why are people going nuts over the 20 hand flamer thing again?
Doesn't seem much different to a tyranid devilgaunt bomb to me.

A 240 point unit of 30 deepstriking termagants with devourers. 2CP to make them fire twice. So 180 S4 shots at 18" range.
Tyranids have had this since their codex dropped, and it barely shows up in lists.

How is 70 S3 auto hits for their genestealer cult buddies suddenly breaking the game?

I feel like this is a red herring.

Either you need a lictor and pheromone trail for 1 CP or a tunnel unit and 1 CP and a burrower - no one seems to like the lictor.

That's a way bigger investment to be equally effective. That extra 140+ points (more than halfway to a battalion) is better served getting more CP to use the stratagems, which is why it wouldn't likely see use.

Average 90 S4 hits at 18" (which will also re-roll 1's to wound) vs average 70 S3 hits at 6".
Yes you do have to pay a bit more for it, because it's not equally effective. It's significantly more effective. 17.5 dead marines vs 7.78 dead marines.

But we aren't worried about marines acting as bubblewrap, because if you are using them as so you are already playing like an idiot. If you put them against GUARDSMEN which cost significantly less, there are more of, and are T3; you come out much more significantly ahead because the ratio of points used compared to a devilgaunt bomb is MUCH better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically Daed is right, it is a red herring because there is an immense difference on cost between the two.

Alright, so it's 46.67 dead guardsmen from the gaunts, vs 23.33 dead guardsmen from the flamers. Still twice as effective.
I'm still not seeing how they break the game.

Looks like 240 points for the gaunts, + 69 points for a ravener taxi.
160 points for 20 acolytes. So that about adds up.

Because you only need 20 dead guardsmen for a screen to not exist anymore. So guess what? That means you invested less points to get the same job done, the screen is dead kill the juicy stuff now.

Well if that's all it takes, then why not just bring half as many gaunts.

Why are you mentioning raveners? Am I missing something here? Don't you mean... Trygons which are much more expensive?

Arson Fire wrote:
Well if that's all it takes, then why not just bring half as many gaunts.

Because you still need to invest in that lictor/trygon witch drags their cost up a ton.

 Quickjager wrote:
Why are you mentioning raveners? Am I missing something here? Don't you mean... Trygons which are much more expensive?

Sure you can bring a trygon if you want to spend lots of points (and get a big melee beatstick too, to be fair). Or you can pay 69 points for 3 raveners in a Jormangundr detachment and use 1CP to deepstrike the gaunts in with them.

 mew28 wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Well if that's all it takes, then why not just bring half as many gaunts.

Because you still need to invest in that lictor/trygon witch drags their cost up a ton.

Sure, 29 points more than the acolytes. Bearing in mind they have 18" range rather than 6", and you also get another unit along with them.

Arson Fire wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Why are you mentioning raveners? Am I missing something here? Don't you mean... Trygons which are much more expensive?

Sure you can bring a trygon if you want to spend lots of points (and get a big melee beatstick too, to be fair). Or you can pay 69 points for 3 raveners in a Jormangundr detachment and use 1CP to deepstrike the gaunts in with them.

But why waste a Hive Fleet adaptation on that when you can pick a different Hive Fleet, take GSC and do the same job cheaper while still keeping your adaptation for something else?

Jormangundr is a decent trait in its own right. Means the gaunts will have a 5+ save against shooting on the turn they show up.

But still, what I've been trying to question with all this, is whether these cultists are really packing such an inordinate amount of firepower that nothing else like it exists.
Yes the devilgaunt bomb has a couple more conditions attached to it, but it's really not all that different. That's all I'm getting at here.

It's slightly off topic, but since it was mentioned I feel compelled to point out that you can't use a lictor for this. Pheromone trail is a busted stratagem, and basically only allows you to reposition a unit that was already in reserves from some other means. Given that nearly every method of putting a unit into reserves also lets it deepstrike anywhere, the stratagem is near useless.

You are asking why it is better, that is because Jormangundr isn't as good as the others; so why take it for a gimmick THAT CAN BE DONE BETTER, quit backpedaling.

Take Kraken, get a relic actually worth using. So on and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Don't know ow to strikethrough, this following is a wrong statement of mine.
Also you are wrong about the Jorm adaptation working on Deepstrike it doesn't so thats another strike against it.

Arson Fire wrote:

 mew28 wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Well if that's all it takes, then why not just bring half as many gaunts.

Because you still need to invest in that lictor/trygon witch drags their cost up a ton.

Sure, 29 points more than the acolytes. Bearing in mind they have 18" range rather than 6", and you also get another unit along with them.

29 points is not insignificant GK strikes vs normal tacs is only 40 more points and that shifts them from mid teir to trash teir despite the GK geting quite a bit for those 40 points on paper.

 Quickjager wrote:
You are asking why it is better, that is because Jormangundr isn't as good as the others; so why take it for a gimmick THAT CAN BE DONE BETTER, quit backpedaling.

Take Kraken, get a relic actually worth using. So on and so on..

Jormangundr relic would work nice alongside a GSC Patriach with the new Mental Onslaught (?) power. Add the Horror. Maybe another GSC LD debuff. And that Castellan/Riptide/whatever will be rolling 5 or 6 + D6 vs. the Patriarchs 10 + D6, taking MWs until they beat your Patriach on that roll-off. 6" range still sucks, but hey.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
You are asking why it is better, that is because Jormangundr isn't as good as the others; so why take it for a gimmick THAT CAN BE DONE BETTER, quit backpedaling.

Take Kraken, get a relic actually worth using. So on and so on..

Jormangundr relic would work nice alongside a GSC Patriach with the new Mental Onslaught (?) power. Add the Horror. Maybe another GSC LD debuff. And that Castellan/Riptide/whatever will be rolling 5 or 6 + D6 vs. the Patriarchs 10 + D6, taking MWs until they beat your Patriach on that roll-off. 6" range still sucks, but hey.

Other people in the thread have gone over why Mental Onslaught isn't that OP, adding this as a conditional... I agree with them that it isn't worth building for.

 Quickjager wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
You are asking why it is better, that is because Jormangundr isn't as good as the others; so why take it for a gimmick THAT CAN BE DONE BETTER, quit backpedaling.

Take Kraken, get a relic actually worth using. So on and so on..

Jormangundr relic would work nice alongside a GSC Patriach with the new Mental Onslaught (?) power. Add the Horror. Maybe another GSC LD debuff. And that Castellan/Riptide/whatever will be rolling 5 or 6 + D6 vs. the Patriarchs 10 + D6, taking MWs until they beat your Patriach on that roll-off. 6" range still sucks, but hey.

Other people in the thread have gone over why Mental Onslaught isn't that OP, adding this as a conditional... I agree with them that it isn't worth building for.

Sure. But it's not like any LVO or other Nid-list hardcore list out there is using the Kraken relic either. Can't put it on Swarmlord and it's not really needed on anything else.

For that pick-up game, the Jormungundr thingy isn't worse than the Kraken -1 skin. For competitive play, both are junk.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I do not like the three-armed man.
I do not like him, Guilliman!
I do not like him as a blip,
I do not like his ambush trick,
I do not like him on a bike,
I do not like him on a trike,
I do not like his lack of hair,
I do not like him anywhere!
I do not like the three-armed man,
I do not like him, Guilliman!

You sir have made my day ! f...ing awesome prose !


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Genestealer Cult players wait nearly 2 years for a codex. Finally comes out and they are asked(almost demanded) to boycott it. At this point I can't help but chuckle at the misfortune of GSC players.

I am personally just going to wait and see.

We are asked by a medium to low skilled player (I can tell from his posts) who posted on dakka. No big deal hah hah. I didn't say a self-important drooling entitled moron mind you, but I kinda share the idea that emotions more than reason drive people to create posts asking to nerf an army which hasn't yet had its codex officially released.
Perhaps GW will nerf a few things here and there but so far, I see nothing I can't deal with in this codex. Stuff that will force me to think yes, stuff that might make me lose my first games against them, maybe.
That is all, and honestly thay have no "loota bomb level" of fear raising combos. The infinite MW psychic spell will be FAQed for sure, the bullgryn orders because brood brothers also.

the_scotsman wrote:
Mental Onslaught is like 2++ save bullgryns, Untouchable Solitaires and freakshow mind war 20MW combos: a wonderful thing for Timmies on the internet to freak out about because they don't understand compound probability and the real cost to get everything to fall into place perfectly.

Why? What cost?

Lets do the simple version. Patriarch, Iconward+Relic from Detachment+Clamavus.
Patriarch seems pretty good - you are not taking it just for this ability. The Relic from the detachment is a bit of an opportunity cost (paying 1-2 CP, giving up the +1 S banner) - but the Iconward is the cheapest HQ so there is a good chance you will have one - especially if you are taking more than 1 detachment. A Clamavus is just 33 points (I think?). Auto include? No - but not exactly breaking the bank. All in all for I think 214 points. Not a lot of fat here. 1-2 CP? Again, not that bad. This faction has a lot of useful things to use CPs on - but it shouldn't be starved of them.

There is an opportunity cost that those characters all have to stand together - but that seems manageable.

Another CP and a Magus and a Primus - and the opportunity cost of Inspiring Leader versus another choice - now we are getting a bit Timmy. This is another CP (although you can offset that by taking the four armed warlord trait if you hadn't already). If you want these characters anyway then great, but I can see why in an optimised list you might not, and therefore it represents additional fat.

A Locus to deep strike/run in? At 40 points we are not breaking the bank - but yes, opportunity cost potentially on the stratagem, he's not that fast and he's 40 points.

Okay you have to cast the spell - but its on a 6. Not that difficult, especially with a potential reroll. They can potentially counter it. But this is true for most offensive psychic powers.

But lets say you have Ld12 and target something with Ld8. Its not a Knight, but there are plenty of targets that have this Leadership and cost around 150-200 points.

You then have the following percentage chance of doing this many or more wounds:
1 0.916666666666667
2 0.840277777777778
3 0.77025462962963
4 0.70606674382716
5 0.64722784850823
6 0.593292194465878
7 0.543851178260388
8 0.498530246738689
9 0.456986059510465
10 0.418903887884593

That seems pretty good to me. The all in approach might be a bit Timmy to get Ld13 vs a Ld8 might be a bit Timmy - but you don't have to do that for this to be abnormally efficient.
And to be fair, it still isn't that hard to do - and when you one shot a Castelan you are going to probably win that game.

While the concept of a boycott is quite silly, and can't be expected from anyone who actually is a GSC player...

Not admitting that this codex features quite a few jaw-dropping powerful options that will cause a massive bandwagon towards GSC and it's soups is also absurd.


This codex is good. too good. WAY too good.
It puts DE to shame levels of good.

Sure, it has some mediocre picks (ironically, quite a few of the new kits are the mediocre stuff), but it really features a large selection of utter nonsense.

They are a horde army using "junk-repair" equipment, that is somehow outclassing space marine equipment in quality, and outclassing IG equipment in quantity.
The got the best of everything, and in large numbers.