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 Daedalus81 wrote:
In either case Warhammer becomes only the things that can deal with GSC. That's not good for the game.

I feel incredibly confident that the game will continue to feature armies that aren't only GSC.


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the_scotsman wrote:
What is "officially" calling for a boycott, if this thread titled "boycott GSC" is non-official?

They're officially on "Double Secret Probation"

Are you seriously calling for a boycott based on one review of a book which isn’t even out? Come on, cooler heads prevail. I would put money that they won’t dethrone aedari soup on the top tables.

the_scotsman wrote:

No, you're having a very strong emotional reaction to what you perceive to be a new broken combo, in particular I'm guessing the 20 handflamer +2CP to get within 3" and shoot stratagem.

I think the element people (myself included) might have been missing with that combo is that the unit can't then charge. So in order to gain 70 S3 AP- hits, you're giving up 13 S4 AP- hits, 10 S3 Ap- hits, and 27 S4 Ap-1 rending hits (50 total that you would otherwise have, spending similar amounts of CP to guarantee the charge).

Good trade against chaff, though of course it does cost CP, and the GSC codex has *a lot* more ways to buff those close combat attacks than they do ways to buff those handflamer attacks.

Yea, maybe, though I don't usually find myself to be terribly bi-polar.

I'm aware of no charging after, but it's such a pittance of an investment. 180 for 15 flamers and 5 demos. That kills a gak ton of stuff very easily.

My mental break occurred after that when I dove into the rest of the book.

What is "officially" calling for a boycott, if this thread titled "boycott GSC" is non-official?

A conversation starter - and a potential solution should things be as they appear to me.

If it breaks the game GW will nerf it fairly quickly.

Eyjio wrote:
are you seriously calling for a boycott based on one review of a book which isn’t even out? Come on, cooler heads prevail. I would put money that they won’t dethrone aedari soup on the top tables.

No one ever actually follows a boycott, but, I feel like the issues are in a place where stirring up a conversation about one is sufficient to get people to notice the issues.

Unfortunately we might be stuck looking at this codex for a while since it won't feature at LVO and if it becomes a sleeper hit we're in for a long slog.


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Tyel wrote:
If it breaks the game GW will nerf it fairly quickly.

Yea, but not out of cycle (I suppose anything is possible). It won't make March so September is the first cut...and then December.

Tyel wrote:
If it breaks the game GW will nerf it fairly quickly.

Like they have nerfed knights...oh wait they haven't.

You are assuming GW wants balance. They don't. They want opposite.

Apparently, the Brood Brother rule for GSC contains a fix for soup: Brood Brother detachments only give you half CP and they don't get any relevant army traits (so no IG doctrines). As well as being limited to 1 per GSC detachment.

With luck, this will be something that GW applies in some fashion (any detachment that doesn't have your Warlord?) to everyone come the Big FAQ 3. It's clean, simple and nips soup lists in the bud by giving a larger incentive to stay as a mono faction without completely removing soup

tneva82 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
If it breaks the game GW will nerf it fairly quickly.

Like they have nerfed knights...oh wait they haven't.

You are assuming GW wants balance. They don't. They want opposite.

Despite my current position - I disagree strongly.

There’s also no allowance for how CA18 changed things up.

Only scoring objectives at the end of the battle round is a pain when your main objective holders are squishy. And in terms of attrition, I’ll want to be bagging my VPs mainly in the early turns. Once again, doing what you can to give GSC the first turn will be a pain, as you get to react to me.

Yes, for 1CP I can keep my objectives hidden. That certainly helps. But for anyone familiar with the general Tactical Objectives, it won’t be too hard to make an educated guess as to what I’m up to.

Me? I think my plan from before Codex info was known is looking even better. Three Manticores allied in. That’s some decent ‘first turn nope’ for me to play with. Perhaps not the most reliable, but if all three gang up on a particular target (oh hi, allied Imperial Knight) I should be able to deliver a dolorous blow to the unsuspecting from the get go. Or I can look to mess up Infantry units to help reduce your Ob Sec options. Depends what I find works when experimenting with the army.

Of course, I will need to get as good as possible with them. Whilst they bring some serious firepower, they do eat up points somewhat - points which may prove better spent on even more infantry.

Regarding the call to action, boycotting GSC sends the wrong message. Boycotting GSC leads to GW believing that GSC is a minor, unpopular army and leads to it being discontinued. You need to find another way to communicate that you want balance. If this were a typically-popular army that suddenly trended flat when it should trend up, that may cause GW to speculate.

The best way to communicate your desires is to communicate your desires.

Wayniac wrote:
Apparently, the Brood Brother rule for GSC contains a fix for soup: Brood Brother detachments only give you half CP and they don't get any relevant army traits (so no IG doctrines). As well as being limited to 1 per GSC detachment.

With luck, this will be something that GW applies in some fashion (any detachment that doesn't have your Warlord?) to everyone come the Big FAQ 3. It's clean, simple and nips soup lists in the bud by giving a larger incentive to stay as a mono faction.

50 / 50 shot. I have the feeling that's only because of the unique nature of the army here since they're in-codex.


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Sorcererbob wrote:
Regarding the call to action, boycotting GSC sends the wrong message. Boycotting GSC leads to GW believing that GSC is a minor, unpopular army and leads to it being discontinued. You need to find another way to communicate that you want balance. If this were a typically-popular army that suddenly trended flat when it should trend up, that may cause GW to speculate.

The best way to communicate your desires is to communicate your desires.

Point well taken - I agree. I don't expect anyone to go through with any severe sort of boycott, but I should have impressed the need to communicate more. Thank you.

I have changed the title and first post to reflect this.

Wayniac wrote:
Apparently, the Brood Brother rule for GSC contains a fix for soup: Brood Brother detachments only give you half CP and they don't get any relevant army traits (so no IG doctrines). As well as being limited to 1 per GSC detachment.

With luck, this will be something that GW applies in some fashion (any detachment that doesn't have your Warlord?) to everyone come the Big FAQ 3. It's clean, simple and nips soup lists in the bud by giving a larger incentive to stay as a mono faction without completely removing soup

It's fairly irrelevant since most of the time they'll be taking a Spearhead-type detachment, which will still be rounded up to 1 CP. It just puts a damper on them running the loyal 32 that they don't need anymore anyways.

Their entire army can deep strike. The blips mean your deployment is always perfectly countered to your opponent. Characters have effectively double wounds thanks to bodyguard ability. Characters have multiple abilities other factions only dream of, for pocket change cost. Acolytes dropped 4 or 5 ppm to 7 which is insane. Hand flamer acolytes for 8ppm is bonkers. Every faction wants the Kelermorph without including his buffing abilities. Those awesome characters that you want to take and are super cheap? They synergize perfectly. So perfectly they allow your Patriarch to cast a power that instagibs a Knight. The Patriarch is a monster for his cost.

The hardest thing a GSC player has to do at the list building stage it seems like, is decide which awesome units he wants to take and to ensure that he doesn't take too many of those incredible characters (for headhunter/kill points).

As I watched Geoff's review I couldn't help but compare the stats and abilities of these units to those of my own. In every comparison those units of GSC are better than the equivalent of my own. Boys vs Acolytes? Acolytes better. Nobs vs Aberrants? Aberrants better. Any Ork buggy vs GSC buggy? GSC buggy better. I have no units that can delete a character at will for 60pts. I can't think of a faction that does. I can't think of a faction that has a unit that has an anti deep strike aura, a leadership buff ability and an advance/charge buff for what, 60 pts? Less? Maybe one of those things for that cost but not all three. Even the Abominant is a joke and he's been increased in points coat (but is still way too cheap)!

It seems that GSC simply take what other units do and do it better. Then they have a Vect equivalent. Which is without question the most powerful stratagem in the game and I believe something that all factions should have access to.

There will never be a boycott of GW product. Look at prices on the product currently. It's at that price because no matter how many cries for boycotting or player bleed out we have, we still have people who will shill out whatever GW asks for. As long as those players exist, AND we keep onboarding more, there will never be a meaningful GW boycott. All that will happen is a modest 10-30% sales drop spread and the whales picking the tab back up when prices are raised again.

Depends what else they bring.

Could be your main Detachment will be determined either by who your Warlord is, or how many points your Detachments are. So Loyal 32, being Bugger All Points only provide 50% CPs.

Who knows? All I know is that feedback is the key.

Why are people going nuts over the 20 hand flamer thing again?
Doesn't seem much different to a tyranid devilgaunt bomb to me.

A 240 point unit of 30 deepstriking termagants with devourers. 2CP to make them fire twice. So 180 S4 shots at 18" range.
Tyranids have had this since their codex dropped, and it barely shows up in lists.

How is 70 S3 auto hits for their genestealer cult buddies suddenly breaking the game?

Arson Fire wrote:
Why are people going nuts over the 20 hand flamer thing again?
Doesn't seem much different to a tyranid devilgaunt bomb to me.

A 240 point unit of 30 deepstriking termagants with devourers. 2CP to make them fire twice. So 180 S4 shots at 18" range.
Tyranids have had this since their codex dropped, and it barely shows up in lists.

How is 70 S3 auto hits for their genestealer cult buddies suddenly breaking the game?

Don't bring logic into this discussion!!!

They’re nasty on the defensive, and can be squrited whilst in combat tool.

Essentially, for very Points your making a decent close combat unit much nastier, to the point where there’s little reason not to take the Hand Flamers.

 mokoshkana wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Why are people going nuts over the 20 hand flamer thing again?
Doesn't seem much different to a tyranid devilgaunt bomb to me.

A 240 point unit of 30 deepstriking termagants with devourers. 2CP to make them fire twice. So 180 S4 shots at 18" range.
Tyranids have had this since their codex dropped, and it barely shows up in lists.

How is 70 S3 auto hits for their genestealer cult buddies suddenly breaking the game?

Don't bring logic into this discussion!!!

Hardly logic. We're talking about two different armies so that means different context and last I checked the stats on Acolytes and Termagants is a liiiitle different?

You're making a straw man out of the situation and ignoring what I believe to be pretty serious problems.

I'm not here to take down GSC players. I have no dog in that fight.

I often make posts similar to yours, but now I am not. Why? Have I suddenly lost my mind? Do I suddenly hate GW?

I do admit I am being a bit facetious(although at this time I do not know where the hyperbole meta is so I make do with my own), but at the same time I find it a bit weird that up until this point it is suddenly GSC that breaks the camel's back? Why not when IK came out or when Drukhari came out? What about the panic around the Ork codex? What about the Matt Ward codexes in 5th?

Maybe I am just naturally chill, or maybe because I am a sagittarius - who knows - but I am relatively content with waiting to see how the GSC plays. If it ends up being ridiculously OP then that will hurt GW in the long run and tourneys, but for people who have the capacity to say no to a fight and play with chill people most of this can be averted.

So I do understand the panic if you are a hardcore tourney player. This probably has the chance of upending the meta. For everybody else this is mostly a non-issue.

Personally I am just looking forward to see how and if everything changes after the codex drops.




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Then they have a Vect equivalent. Which is without question the most powerful stratagem in the game and I believe something that all factions should have access to.

I agree with this, strangely enough. Once per game for 3CP you could nullify one stratagem. Risk and reward and all that.

Just keep calm, fellas. Sky ain't falling nor are the Cults going to suddenly start capsizing every game anywhere ever.

I mean, 70 flamer shots barely kills 5 of my plague marines. After which they stand there and get shot to pieces in retaliation? Wuppee.
That psychic onslaught thingamabob is pretty rad on the Patriarch, but it's not oneshotting Knights. Basically in that scenario you're just rolling off, Patriarch at +1 but he has to get more than the opposition. Odds are you get a few wounds in. Mind control on knights though, that's tasty.

Just take a breather and relax, there's no use getting worked up over hype before trying. Tabletop Tactics released a fun outing just now on Youtube, the Cult did pretty well but was likewise cut to ribbons by the end of the game. Who'd have though light infantry gets shredded by massed firepower from Scions and the like, eh?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Their entire army can deep strike.

No, they can't, they are still bound by the same restrictions as everyone else on what percentage of their army can be put in deep strike. I certainly haven't seen anything that changes that.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The blips mean your deployment is always perfectly countered to your opponent.

Except for those pesky objectives that might give you a decent idea where they'll be going.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Acolytes dropped 4 or 5 ppm to 7 which is insane. Hand flamer acolytes for 8ppm is bonkers. Every faction wants the Kelermorph without including his buffing abilities. Those awesome characters that you want to take and are super cheap? They synergize perfectly. So perfectly they allow your Patriarch to cast a power that instagibs a Knight. The Patriarch is a monster for his cost.

It has an extremely small chance to do that, almost impossible. Also, there's this mechanic called deny, you might want to check it out. I've heard most armies have some way to do it.

This just turned my rainy day into an afternoon of amusement.

It's going to change some things, and scare the pants off of some, but GSC won't be as strong as people are fearing.

Good? Definitely. I honestly am having a hard time being content to wait any longer for my Codex so I can start getting practice games in.

Not Online!!! wrote:

The difference is I get to shoot at the thing that is scary in a gunline. With GSC I don't. There is no counterplay for me.

A gsc player can only hide half of his army.

The other half is blips turned around at your first shooting phase.

However he still has a massive deployment advantage since he can change what units are under a blib and is not bound by that.
He only has to specify which units are underground / arrive via deepstrike.

False, with 1 CP we can bypass a bit of the half points/half units limit
But that stratagem is honestly needed otherwise we can't really deepstrike anything because characters aren't really cheap (atleast the Broodcoven)

 Sherrypie wrote:
Mind control on knights though, that's tasty.

Yep. Why would you want to blow up the Knight when you could be stealing it instead?

text removed.

Reds8n

 EnTyme wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:
Mind control on knights though, that's tasty.

Yep. Why would you want to blow up the Knight when you could be stealing it instead?

I know! First we Mind Control it, then we MO it, then we shiv em real good.

Then we steal what's left and make it into a Renegade Knight Allied to GSC for Narrative Play....

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

No, they can't, they are still bound by the same restrictions as everyone else on what percentage of their army can be put in deep strike. I certainly haven't seen anything that changes that.

Ah so balanced that the majority of their units have innate deepstrike. Only 50% to deal with.

Except for those pesky objectives that might give you a decent idea where they'll be going.

Lol wut? Here's how it'll pan out: 'oh man I sure hope my AV weapon is in range of something useful! Oh those blips were all infantry huh? Well at least I have my charging units (that have to stay 9" away) over there ready to rock! Oh they charged a bunch of melee beatsticks....cool...cool.'

Its incredibly powerful.

It has an extremely small chance to do that, almost impossible. Also, there's this mechanic called deny, you might want to check it out. I've heard most armies have some way to do it.

Oh wow thanks genius! Better hope I deny that power or I insta lose anything. That's cool, a really good mechanic. There isn't a 'small chance' to do it. The chance is exactly as high as how much the player wants to do it. There is no counterplay except hoping I can deny? I hope that herple derple Kelerschmerple doesn't nuke my psyker before he gets the chance I guess?

40k must have multiple layers of sky what with its continual falling going on. Lol

I am looking forward to getting back to 40k with GSC.

hope that herple derple Kelerschmerple doesn't nuke my psyker before he gets the chance I guess?

Petition to rename kelermorph into herple-derple-Kelerschmerple, or short fritzl.