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And how are we getting to the triple save, exactly?

By ignoring points for the Iconward, obviously.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And how are we getting to the triple save, exactly?

Cog grants 6++ and iconward grants 6+++ (which also ignores move for heavies). Otherwise Claw will be 4+/6+++.

Oh I see.

So we're cherry picking extra rules to get the worst possible view. Excellent.

To be fair, Bladed Cog would absolutely be my go to for Neophites, a squad of 10 with 2 Mining Lasers and 2 Webbers/Grenade Launchers in Gloiath trucks seems like a good way to fill out your troops choices, but this would mostly be for the move shoot Heavy without penalty.

Even with 4+/6++ they are still going to die in droves even to just bolter fire.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah yes. Neophytes. With their low toughness and tissue paper armour. However will our opponents cope!

5+/6++/6+++ is pretty great for 5 points - that's not tissue paper at all. They get reroll morale from iconward and there's zero reason to take 20 since all their specials and heavies are available in the 10 man size.

So, you're adding the buff from a what, 56 point HQ to this 50 point neophyte unit, and you're giving them...what is the 6++ from, some cult that isn't CTFAE?

You're not allowed to give anyone a cult other than CTFAE if everyone is going to keep shrieking "BUT MUH VECT REEEEEE" to every counterplay suggestion that involves a stratagem. If everyone's going to be CTFAE when their opponents want to use a stratagem, then everyone has to be CTFAE when you're looking at their defensive profiles.

Imagine if someone said "oh, space marines aren't not durable! 13pts for T4, 3+, 4++, -1 to hit with 5+ overwatch LD9 that fights when it dies on a 4+? THATS INCREDIBLY DURABLE!

I agree with the sentiment, but a small point:

You only need one detachment in your army to be CoTFAE to get access to A Plan (so long as a unit survives from it).

You could make the rest of your army a different cult.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah yes. Neophytes. With their low toughness and tissue paper armour. However will our opponents cope!

5+/6++/6+++ is pretty great for 5 points - that's not tissue paper at all. They get reroll morale from iconward and there's zero reason to take 20 since all their specials and heavies are available in the 10 man size.

You're not allowed to give anyone a cult other than CTFAE if everyone is going to keep shrieking "BUT MUH VECT REEEEEE" to every counterplay suggestion that involves a stratagem. If everyone's going to be CTFAE when their opponents want to use a stratagem, then everyone has to be CTFAE when you're looking at their defensive profiles.

You can't if you are going 1 GSC detachment, 1 Tyranid Detachment, 1 IG detachment. If you are taking 2 GSC detachments you can mix and match as you want.
I think a 4+/5+ save versus Ap-/1 is better than a 6++ coming into play if your neophytes get pasted by AP2+ guns, but I think a "deployed on the table" and "deployed from ambush" split would be the way to go (and the ambush detachment will want to be CTFAE, because failing charges loses games.)

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah yes. Neophytes. With their low toughness and tissue paper armour. However will our opponents cope!

5+/6++/6+++ is pretty great for 5 points - that's not tissue paper at all. They get reroll morale from iconward and there's zero reason to take 20 since all their specials and heavies are available in the 10 man size.

So, you're adding the buff from a what, 56 point HQ to this 50 point neophyte unit, and you're giving them...what is the 6++ from, some cult that isn't CTFAE?

You're not allowed to give anyone a cult other than CTFAE if everyone is going to keep shrieking "BUT MUH VECT REEEEEE" to every counterplay suggestion that involves a stratagem. If everyone's going to be CTFAE when their opponents want to use a stratagem, then everyone has to be CTFAE when you're looking at their defensive profiles.

Imagine if someone said "oh, space marines aren't not durable! 13pts for T4, 3+, 4++, -1 to hit with 5+ overwatch LD9 that fights when it dies on a 4+? THATS INCREDIBLY DURABLE!

You're assigning arguments that don't belong to me. I'm merely highlighting what's out there.

Iconward is an autotake, anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh I see.

So we're cherry picking extra rules to get the worst possible view. Excellent.

No, that's not what I'm doing. Rusted Claw was already popular. If people wanted to take Neos i'm showing them the best way they might work with Cog.

Yes. Exactly.

Cherry picking extra rule to get the worst possible view. Excellent.

Literally what I said.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah yes. Neophytes. With their low toughness and tissue paper armour. However will our opponents cope!

5+/6++/6+++ is pretty great for 5 points - that's not tissue paper at all. They get reroll morale from iconward and there's zero reason to take 20 since all their specials and heavies are available in the 10 man size.

So, you're adding the buff from a what, 56 point HQ to this 50 point neophyte unit, and you're giving them...what is the 6++ from, some cult that isn't CTFAE?

You're not allowed to give anyone a cult other than CTFAE if everyone is going to keep shrieking "BUT MUH VECT REEEEEE" to every counterplay suggestion that involves a stratagem. If everyone's going to be CTFAE when their opponents want to use a stratagem, then everyone has to be CTFAE when you're looking at their defensive profiles.

Imagine if someone said "oh, space marines aren't not durable! 13pts for T4, 3+, 4++, -1 to hit with 5+ overwatch LD9 that fights when it dies on a 4+? THATS INCREDIBLY DURABLE!

You're assigning arguments that don't belong to me. I'm merely highlighting what's out there.

Iconward is an autotake, anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh I see.

So we're cherry picking extra rules to get the worst possible view. Excellent.

No, that's not what I'm doing. Rusted Claw was already popular. If people wanted to take Neos i'm showing them the best way they might work with Cog.

So is Azrael, a Darkshroud and a Company Ancient in a dark angels gunline army.

That doesn't mean those things don't cost points. You've given a 50-point unit a buffer that costs more points than the unit itself just to pretend they're more durable than they are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Cultists cost more than Guardsmen and are less durable? What do you mean - cultists are T3, 5++, -1 to hit!"

Is the Iconward autotake? Is he?

I mean, I want a Magus and a Patriarch base. Pyschic muscle and, erm, muscle muscle. I'm also keen to have a Kelemorph, and maybe an Alphus too. Perhaps the other Assassin type, the name of which escapes me. Because the name of my game is apply pressure Turn 1 and Keep It Up. That means I want to be dropping your characters as soon as possible, whilst raining hell down on you from the three Manticores in the backfield, hopefully squelching stuff I don't particularly want having a say in the battle (and bagging me a VP into the bargain).

Where does the Iconward fit into that? I'm pretty sure my plan is a solid one, even though there'll be inevitable tinkering around the edges.

"Cultists cost more than Guardsmen and are less durable? What do you mean - cultists are T3, 5++, -1 to hit!"

SV6+ cultists are.
-1 for Alphalegion .
Not morale imune then.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yes. Exactly.

Cherry picking extra rule to get the worst possible view. Excellent.

Literally what I said.

Let's be honest. Your intent was to discredit the information and make it appear as if it is not feasible or impractical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

"Cultists cost more than Guardsmen and are less durable? What do you mean - cultists are T3, 5++, -1 to hit!"

SV6+ cultists are.
-1 for Alphalegion .
Not morale imune then.

Abaddon morale immune is for all heretic - they just would not reroll to hit instead.

Not Online!!! wrote:

"Cultists cost more than Guardsmen and are less durable? What do you mean - cultists are T3, 5++, -1 to hit!"

SV6+ cultists are.
-1 for Alphalegion .
Not morale imune then.

Oh no I was going for Thousand Sons cultists with Weaver of Fates and Glamor of Tzeentch on them.

Psykers are autoinclude in thousand sons armies anyway

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yes. Exactly.

Cherry picking extra rule to get the worst possible view. Excellent.

Literally what I said.

Let's be honest. Your intent was to discredit the information and make it appear as if it is not feasible or impractical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

"Cultists cost more than Guardsmen and are less durable? What do you mean - cultists are T3, 5++, -1 to hit!"

SV6+ cultists are.
-1 for Alphalegion .
Not morale imune then.

Abaddon morale immune is for all heretic - they just would not reroll to hit instead.

Then we are no longer talking just cultists. And little abby is worth 2-3 of these characters.

Also you would need a Chaos lord to gain the AL trait aswell.

the_scotsman wrote:


Oh no I was going for Thousand Sons cultists with Weaver of Fates and Glamor of Tzeentch on them.

Psykers are autoinclude in thousand sons armies anyway

Err...no one has ever taken 40 cultists as TS. They don't reroll to hit. You need Abaddon to keep them on the board. They don't double shoot.

It's like the worst investment you could make with 200 points while also murdering your CP.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Oh no I was going for Thousand Sons cultists with Weaver of Fates and Glamor of Tzeentch on them.

Psykers are autoinclude in thousand sons armies anyway

Err...no one has ever taken 40 cultists as TS. They don't reroll to hit. You need Abaddon to keep them on the board. They don't double shoot.

It's like the worst investment you could make with 200 points while also murdering your CP.

Yep. THAT's the point I'm going for with these examples. Not pointing out how ridiculous and disingenuous it is to invisibly add random buffs, traits, and extra rules to models to make them seem more strong than they are.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Oh no I was going for Thousand Sons cultists with Weaver of Fates and Glamor of Tzeentch on them.

Psykers are autoinclude in thousand sons armies anyway

Err...no one has ever taken 40 cultists as TS. They don't reroll to hit. You need Abaddon to keep them on the board. They don't double shoot.

It's like the worst investment you could make with 200 points while also murdering your CP.

Yep. THAT's the point I'm going for with these examples. Not pointing out how ridiculous and disingenuous it is to invisibly add random buffs, traits, and extra rules to models to make them seem more strong than they are.

Please. That's a massive strawman to assert that taking Neos with a 50ish point HQ you'll have anyway to 200 points of cultists with 120 point HQ for spells and 240 point HQ for morale.

the_scotsman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

"Cultists cost more than Guardsmen and are less durable? What do you mean - cultists are T3, 5++, -1 to hit!"

SV6+ cultists are.
-1 for Alphalegion .
Not morale imune then.

Oh no I was going for Thousand Sons cultists with Weaver of Fates and Glamor of Tzeentch on them.

Psykers are autoinclude in thousand sons armies anyway

If you try to make a Strawmen, atleast make one that is actually worth it next time.

Or better, field a propper counterargument. There is excactly zero weight in this argument to support your claim that all Cults need to be C4AE.

In truth i suspect a smaller detachment might be chosen of C4AE and a bigger one of the more durable cults if Survivability becomes an issue.
Which is actually fairly enticing thanks to the Brood Brothers ruling.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
In what way do you think they'll change it?

I suspect they'll put in some mechanic to prevent it from being open-ended damage. There's a number of ways to accomplish this, really.
- Target limitation, limit the target selection to infantry only and it becomes a character killer, but can't be abused against vehicles. Sadly, this takes the much-hated Castellan off the target list.
- Ramping difficulty, give the target +1 per check and this power ends up capping out at a fairly normal amount of MW after buffs and debuffs.
- Flat cap the damage at a certain level, this is the most crude solution in my opinion, but would accomplish the goal, seems most unlikely though.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yes. Exactly.

Cherry picking extra rule to get the worst possible view. Excellent.

Literally what I said.

Mad Doc, this is what competitive player do man. They look at a book and make the most insanely powerful combos they can and see if it beats another person doing the same from (likely) another book.

It is worth considering these combos that you think are the 'worst possible view' because someone out there is wetting their pants at the thought of 5+, 6++, 6+++ for 5 pts and is painting the appropriate models, giggling to themselves as I write this.

On other news; A Plan Generations in the Making will feature in every GSC list, it by no means ensures that will be the only cult used for GSC armies. Of course you can compare the durability of units from another cult, they're very likely.

And then mash them altogether, regardless of how one actually fits it all in a single 1750 list, whilst shrieking the sky is falling.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And then mash them altogether, regardless of how one actually fits it all in a single 1750 list, whilst shrieking the sky is falling.

2 GSC detachments and a nid detachment.
fits perfectly well imo.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And then mash them altogether, regardless of how one actually fits it all in a single 1750 list, whilst shrieking the sky is falling.

2 GSC detachments and a nid detachment.
fits perfectly well imo.

Hope you didnt want any orders for your brood brothers.

the_scotsman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And then mash them altogether, regardless of how one actually fits it all in a single 1750 list, whilst shrieking the sky is falling.

2 GSC detachments and a nid detachment.
fits perfectly well imo.

Hope you didnt want any orders for your brood brothers.

Why even field broodbrothers?
Serious questions, i feel like the stratagems make the regular GSC units worth more then IG imo.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Why even field broodbrothers?
Serious questions, i feel like the stratagems make the regular GSC units worth more then IG imo.

Because they're cheaper than Neophytes, and generally, for a unit you're probably not going to invest a lot in (via points or CP), they're a better option. Most of the time, they are filler bodies that will hopefully sit out of direct LOS with a mortar and hold an objective. Why spend additional points on Neophytes to do that job when BB will do it cheaper and better? Acolytes are the unit you're actually going to invest CP or points in and will provide more bang for the buck.

Not Online!!! 770982 10338227 wrote:

Why even field broodbrothers?
Serious questions, i feel like the stratagems make the regular GSC units worth more then IG imo.

Aren't ogryns ordered to fight twice kind of a good as a melee unit?

Karol wrote:
Aren't ogryns ordered to fight twice kind of a good as a melee unit?

Normally they can't be given orders. This is also kind of the crux of the argument against GSC being able to use orders at all.

Guardsmen will always have a place if you can field them. Mortar teams are fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. Top players running GSC now bring in squads of mortars. Being able to deposit on-demand shots nearly anywhere on the board ignoring LOS is *huge*.