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 labmouse42 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Storm bolter toting units are the clear winners.

Which, combined with the fact that the plastic kit includes 0 SBs, gives me the feeling that DW Vets are soon to have their SB option removed.
Time will tell if StormVets make a big showing in tourneys in 2019, but if they make a big enough impact, I'd expect an FAQ/Errata removing them. From Matched play at least.
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I agree with Galef.

And even though I am currently building several SB/SS Vets, I'd still prefer the SB option removed from DW vet if anything changes at all. They can still take bolters or Combi-weapons and be relatively useful.
But removing SIA from SBs (something I've seen proposed) would make DW Termies complete garbage, and requiring SS to be paired with a melee weapon would be equally lame.
Shield + gun is a good sci-fi combo, so it should remain an option.

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OR they could make it so the Storm Shield isn't absurdly cheap. If if the Storm Bolter is good...so what? It's am 18 point model.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
OR they could make it so the Storm Shield isn't absurdly cheap. If if the Storm Bolter is good...so what? It's am 18 point model.

Counter argument would be that even free Storm shields is still only a 3+ roll.
18pt model dies as fast as a regular 13ppm Marine to AP-0 shots, which usually come in bulk, so 2-3ppm for non-Characters is about right.

The reasons I'd expect the removal of the SB is mostly due to GWs "no model, no rules" philosophy of late and the DW vet kit coming with 0 SBs
If SB DW Vets become OP due to Bolter Discipline, SIA and cheap SS, rather than change BD, SIA or revert the cost of SS back to 5ppm, the "logical" solution would be to drop the SB option from DW Vets, so that the other rules can still have full benefit to other units that need the help.

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 Galef wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Storm bolter toting units are the clear winners.

Which, combined with the fact that the plastic kit includes 0 SBs, gives me the feeling that DW Vets are soon to have their SB option removed.
Time will tell if StormVets make a big showing in tourneys in 2019, but if they make a big enough impact, I'd expect an FAQ/Errata removing them. From Matched play at least.

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Good thing all plastic Space Wolves sprues are overflowing with stormbolter bits, at least. And plasma guns.

Geez, the awesome 5. Edition SW kits really were 8 years ahead of their time. Hilarious that I was sad back then that they didn't have pretty much anything but tons of plasma guns, stormbolters, stormshields and plasma pistols (now awesome to chop up for plasmagun conversions for my guard) on them. Back then meltas, combi-weapons and power fists (a single bit looks bad if repeated on several units) were the things you wanted.

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
OR they could make it so the Storm Shield isn't absurdly cheap. If if the Storm Bolter is good...so what? It's am 18 point model.

Counter argument would be that even free Storm shields is still only a 3+ roll.
18pt model dies as fast as a regular 13ppm Marine to AP-0 shots, which usually come in bulk, so 2-3ppm for non-Characters is about right.

The reasons I'd expect the removal of the SB is mostly due to GWs "no model, no rules" philosophy of late and the DW vet kit coming with 0 SBs
If SB DW Vets become OP due to Bolter Discipline, SIA and cheap SS, rather than change BD, SIA or revert the cost of SS back to 5ppm, the "logical" solution would be to drop the SB option from DW Vets, so that the other rules can still have full benefit to other units that need the help.

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This. The single best way to kill power armor is just tossing a bunch of dice at them. The targets costing a good 20 points when even equally easy to kill 13 point cans are a very worthwhile target for all of my small arms is just icing on the cake. Gib me please, my Skitarii screens and especially Fire Warrior hordes love it. It's essentially the same issue power armored Grey Knights suffer from.

That's what makes the cheap SS/SB termies so good. It's like playing Infinity really, where it's all about having your troops at a range where where you hit with full accuracy while your targets get penalties for being too far away with their shorter ranged guns. All thanks to the cheapish 2+/3++ saves and 2 wounds. According to my napkin math, A pack of WGT worth 135 could very comfortably duel with 150 points of infantry squads + needed support (120 pts for 3 squads, 30 for a Company Commander to get FRFSRF on two units) at 19"-24" away, against literally the most efficient anti-infantry firepower in the game, and it's really easy for the termies to get there when they can move and shoot with their full fire rate, infantry hordes rarely hide in the back. And when the other player tries to shoot true and tried plasma at them (bonus points if it's plasma guns now only getting one shot) it gets even better. DW Termies getting SIA up to 30" range is great, but they also suffer from being 4 points (afair) more pricy and 5++ isn't much when the multi-damage rounds and high AP comes flying.
And against most infantry with 12" rapid fire + 6" movement (or guardsmen with FRFSRF) being 24" away or 30" away isn't a massive difference.

Yeah, that's why I'm using GKs as my StormVets since they all have SBs.

But, to get back on topic, GKs themselves don't really get a significant boost with Bolter Discipline change, which is ironic since EVERYONE has a Strombolter and they have Termies as Troops.

But at the end of the day, without rules like SIA, a bolter shot is just a bolter shot. It's nice the GKs can now put out a respectable amount of anti-infantry fire, but they still aren't competitive for it.

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 Galef wrote:
Yeah, that's why I'm using GKs as my StormVets since they all have SBs.

But, to get back on topic, GKs themselves don't really get a significant boost with Bolter Discipline change, which is ironic since EVERYONE has a Strombolter and they have Termies as Troops.

But at the end of the day, without rules like SIA, a bolter shot is just a bolter shot. It's nice the GKs can now put out a respectable amount of anti-infantry fire, but they still aren't competitive for it.

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Maybe they just need to bring back psybolt ammunition as standard?

 Haighus wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Yeah, that's why I'm using GKs as my StormVets since they all have SBs.

But, to get back on topic, GKs themselves don't really get a significant boost with Bolter Discipline change, which is ironic since EVERYONE has a Strombolter and they have Termies as Troops.

But at the end of the day, without rules like SIA, a bolter shot is just a bolter shot. It's nice the GKs can now put out a respectable amount of anti-infantry fire, but they still aren't competitive for it.

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Maybe they just need to bring back psybolt ammunition as standard?

They REALLY need to bring their point cost down. That's the biggest issue. Baby smite and force weapons with a single attack are waaaaaay to overvalued. And it's not like they'll get use out of their only regular psychic power when only 4 of them are worth it and most likely going to be used by better units in the same turn (except maybe Hammerhead, but why would you ever use that on a squad with abysmal melee output?). Or the bonus against demons which is completely wasted against any actual Chaos demon army because they have a strategem that essentially makes you as good as autolose if you ever get unlucky enough playing against them with even a semi-pure GK list. But all those only situationally helpful gadgets inflate their price way too much.

Either that or give them a second wound. GK Terminators need a small price cut even if they get a third wound, 41 points for marine baseline stats is madness in this edition. Paladins wouldn't suffer if they went to 41 ish points either.

Point costs need to be drastic because most of the Strategems are mediocre or downright bad (let's not even get started on relics) and I don't see them getting replaced by anything better unless they decide to do Codex overhauls for 8.5 (assuming they are going the AoS Edition route).

I've been lurking these forums a while and when I joined it seemed like most of the threads about marines (loyal or traitor) were about how bad they were.
Now the discussion seems to be which marine unit is the best. Hell of a switch for a single beta rule.
Have GW pulled a masterstroke here to bring marine troops back into the game?

I sure wouldn’t say so. Maybe a few units finally catch up to what other races can do, but if it were the fix marines should have then basic marines would be usable and intercessors wouldn’t barely be used.

 Haighus wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Yeah, that's why I'm using GKs as my StormVets since they all have SBs.

But, to get back on topic, GKs themselves don't really get a significant boost with Bolter Discipline change, which is ironic since EVERYONE has a Strombolter and they have Termies as Troops.

But at the end of the day, without rules like SIA, a bolter shot is just a bolter shot. It's nice the GKs can now put out a respectable amount of anti-infantry fire, but they still aren't competitive for it.

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Maybe they just need to bring back psybolt ammunition as standard?

I wouldn't be against that for their current point cost. They might not even need a point cut.

 RobS wrote:
I've been lurking these forums a while and when I joined it seemed like most of the threads about marines (loyal or traitor) were about how bad they were.
Now the discussion seems to be which marine unit is the best. Hell of a switch for a single beta rule.
Have GW pulled a masterstroke here to bring marine troops back into the game?

Anything that can take a stormbolter/combi-bolters or hurricane bolters, ESPECIALLY terminators and vehicles, were buffed big time, and to a lesser degree any unit with long ranged or special-issue ammo rapid fire bolt weapons (Deathwatch in general and e.g. Sternguard or Intercessors for most marine dexes).

Also most of the units we are positively discussing also all got considerable point cuts recently with Chapter Approved 2018 (e.g. SW terminators both for their base cost and their now 2 point (!) stormshields), making formerly thoroughly mediocre or even below-mediocre units good. A good example would be the Land Raider Crusader, which thanks to the bolter rule and considerable point decreases can now move and throw out 28 (!) bolter shots in addition to 12 assault cannon shots at 24" (so 40 dice total, 12 with S6 AP-1) for a very acceptable 266 points, while also having a huge transport capacity and being pretty durable with T8, 16 wounds and a 2+ save (compare the price e.g. to a Leman Russ Punisher with Pask (considered to be a great unit), which isn't all that much cheaper and much more fragile, though he does have BS 2+ going for him).

Most space marine units, particularly infantry, don't really benefit much from the new rule, because it only works if they stand still which is hard to pull off in this edition, but it's still better than what they had before (aka nothing). But it's good to see that GW is willing to butcher some sacred cows now (aka the baseline space marine equipment and statline), so there might be more coming.

 Galef wrote:
But at the end of the day, without rules like SIA, a bolter shot is just a bolter shot. -

This.
SIA is the secret sauce that makes the Bolter Discipline go from good to great. To illustrate this, lets take some examples of bolters vs common enemies and see what the difference is.
I'll also add the values for a master and lieutenant nearby to cause rerolls of hits and wound values of 1.

MEQ
Chaos filth has come pouring onto the table. How much better is SIA vs that 3+ T4 save?
* Regular bolter : (2/3 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) = 11.11% chance to kill per shot.
* Master : (7/9 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) = 12.96% chance to kill per shot.
* Lieutenant : (2/3 to hit) * (7/12 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) = 12.96% chance to kill per shot.
* Both : (7/9 to hit) * (7/12 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) = 15.12% chance to kill per shot.
* Kraken SIA : (2/3 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (1/2 failed save) = 16.67% chance to kill per shot.
* Vengeance SIA : (2/3 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) = 22.22% chance to kill per shot.
* Hellfire SIA : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) = 18.52% chance to kill per shot.
What does this tell us? SIA is better than vanilla marines having both a Master and Lieutenant standing next to them. If they are close enough to use vengance rounds, the SIA weapons are twice as deadly. That's the same as each terminator getting 8 shots with their SB.

Horrors
Now lets see how these bolters would do against a swarm of 30 horrors.
* Regular bolter : (2/3 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (1/2 failed save) = 22.22% chance to kill per shot.
* Master : (7/9 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (1/2 failed save) = 25.93% chance to kill per shot.
* Lieutenant : (2/3 to hit) * (7/9 to wound) * (1/2 failed save) = 25.93% chance to kill per shot.
* Both : (7/9 to hit) * (7/9 to wound) * (1/2 failed save) = 30.25% chance to kill per shot.
* Kraken SIA : (2/3 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (1/2 failed save) = 22.22% chance to kill per shot.
* Vengeance SIA : (2/3 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (1/2 failed save) = 22.22% chance to kill per shot.
* Hellfire SIA : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/2 failed save) = 27.78% chance to kill per shot.
SIA rounds still take the cake here. Even though the Kraken and Vengeance rounds are much less effective because the 4++ save nullies the modifier.

Orks
How do bolters do against the green tide?
* Regular bolter : (2/3 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) = 27.78% chance to kill per shot.
* Master : (7/9 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) = 32.41% chance to kill per shot.
* Lieutenant : (2/3 to hit) * (7/12 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) = 32.41% chance to kill per shot.
* Both : (7/9 to hit) * (7/12 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) = 37.81% chance to kill per shot.
* Kraken SIA : (2/3 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (1 failed save) = 33.33% chance to kill per shot.
* Vengeance SIA : (2/3 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (1 failed save) = 33.33% chance to kill per shot.
* Hellfire SIA : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) = 46.30% chance to kill per shot.
SIA win again by a landside. I have seen this in action when my squad of 10 terminators teleported onto the table and opened up into a squad of boys kill ~20 of the mob.

Dreadnought
What about against a T6/T7 target with a 3+ save? There are lots of models that fall into this category.
* Regular bolter : (2/3 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) = 7.41% chance to kill per shot.
* Master : (7/9 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) = 8.64% chance to kill per shot.
* Lieutenant : (2/3 to hit) * (7/18 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) = 8.64% chance to kill per shot.
* Both : (7/9 to hit) * (7/18 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) = 10.08% chance to kill per shot.
* Kraken SIA : (2/3 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (1/2 failed save) = 11.11% chance to kill per shot.
* Vengeance SIA : (2/3 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) = 14.81% chance to kill per shot.
SIA again has double the damage output when you can use Vengeance rounds. This means 10 models with SB should be able to throw nearly 6 wounds onto a Dreadnought!
I have personally seen this in action when my terminators where shooting down venoms and ravagers with bolters.

Takeaways
SIA is the secret sauce that makes bolters work. Bolter Discipline just ramps this up to 11.
Does that mean DW are the overall-endall? I just flipped through my DW book and there were 22 pages of units. I flipped through my DA book and saw 50 pages of units.
DW lacks a lot of the tools that other marine armies have. Their infantry are head and shoulders better than the rest. If you are running a pure infantry list then they are the way to go.
If you want to do something different then there might be better solutions -- depending on what you are looking to do.

Good thing all plastic Space Wolves sprues are overflowing with stormbolter bits, at least.

You can always take bolters and glue two bolters side by side to obtain a storm bolter.

Right, SIA on storm bolters is undeniably great. But if looking at what gain they get from Bolter Discipline itself their gain is how often they can rapid fire now when they could not rapid fire before. It’s not all SB shots. That mostly means either standing still at 12”+, bikes, or terminators not in a Vet squad.