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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Denison, Iowa

Soup is all the rage this edition. However, I'm an old-timer and I like mono-faction. So, with that in mind, which lists can pull this off the best? Let's try to differentiate if we are talking with or without FW rules, but both ways are valid.


Although they've been balanced a bit I'd say the two top-dogs at the moment are Eldar and Imperial Guard. How would you rank the other factions?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Eldar & Guard,

Everything else lumped into some form of unplayable.

Grey Knights

*Genesteeler Cults - I'm not sure yet wich of the 1st two categories to put these guys in.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Just as a guess I'd have to give the nod to the better books like Dark Eldar, Orks, etc.

Eldar would be okay, still able to spam a handful of strong units, but as a whole book, have a lot of missing elements.

I do wish we'd see more tournaments go this route as it's 10x more interesting than the boring Soup-meta that is prevalent.
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, not only CW and AM, but also Drukhari are very well playable as a mono-faction.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Death Guard are a great Mono-Faction, with and without nurgle daemon to help out.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






In addition to the obvious;

Drukhari are the top performing mono army.

Tau are pretty good and recently enjoyed sweeping points reductions.

GSC will very likely be top tier given their unit stats, costs and since they have Vect 2.0.

Orks are largely considered a gatekeeper army, similar to pre points reductions Tau.

Deathwatch have success and look to get better with bolter rule.

Imperial Knights are no joke, but throw in the loyal 32 and they're infinitely better.
   
Made in gb
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Luton, England

One thing to remember is that in this comparison the armies won't be fighting against soup either which may give extra legs to some factions.

I'd say that Drukari, Aeldari & Orks are top of the pile having loads of viable options and builds. The aeldari in particular have lots of units that are never seen but are still very good for their points.

Tyranids, Tau, Imperial Guard, deathguard, Imperial Knight are next up, all working well as a mono faction but all being reasonably one dimensional.
Likely add GSC to this list as well.

After that its just a mix of codexs that didn't really have enough thought put into them, most have lackluster stratagems which are where the real power lies this edition. Sadly most of the earlier codexs are in here and also most of the power armour which were all likely designed together.

40,000pts
8,000pts
3,000pts
3,000pts
6,000pts
2,000pts
1,000pts
:deathwatch: 3,000pts
:Imperial Knights: 2,000pts
:Custodes: 4,000pts 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Indeed, its a pity that most of the Marine codex armies cannot hold their own.
This particularly holds for GK, the first codex released in the 8th edition.
The vanilla SM codex is much better but still the mono factions described in there are not viable on their own.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





 WisdomLS wrote:
Tyranids, Tau, Imperial Guard, deathguard, Imperial Knight are next up, all working well as a mono faction but all being reasonably one dimensional.
Likely add GSC to this list as well.
Also Thousand Sons - but these are all factions that can hold their own against allied armies to some degree.

Below them armies like solo blood angels are poor because they will invariably run into blood angels supported by guard and knights - if everyone is playing single codex then they can reasonably fill out their list with scouts, primaris marines, death company, sanguinary guard, and the odd forgeworld unit.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, its a pity that most of the Marine codex armies cannot hold their own.
This particularly holds for GK, the first codex released in the 8th edition.
The vanilla SM codex is much better but still the mono factions described in there are not viable on their own.


They hold their own just fine, independent of some highly-visible posters' opinions.

Holding their own is entirely different from being #1, and largely bring nothing useful to the soup, but on their own they're more than playable if you want to play them.

Dark Eldar seems to be at the top for Mono-faction,
Then there's probably Eldar, Guard
Then probably Tau, Orks, CSM, and probably Deathwatch
Then Vanilla Marines, Blood Angels, Tyranids, and probably Sisters of Battle
Then Dark Angels and Necrons
Then Space Wolves
Then somewhere down there is Grey Knights

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/06 13:07:37


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, its a pity that most of the Marine codex armies cannot hold their own.
This particularly holds for GK, the first codex released in the 8th edition.
The vanilla SM codex is much better but still the mono factions described in there are not viable on their own.


They hold their own just fine, independent of some highly-visible posters' opinions.

Holding their own is entirely different from being #1, and largely bring nothing useful to the soup, but on their own they're more than playable if you want to play them.

Dark Eldar seems to be at the top for Mono-faction,
Then there's probably Eldar, Guard
Then probably Tau, Orks, CSM, and probably Deathwatch
Then Vanilla Marines, Blood Angels, Tyranids, and probably Sisters of Battle
Then Dark Angels and Necrons
Then Space Wolves
Then somewhere down there is Grey Knights


As much as I enjoy your optimism, I feel you're pretty much dead wrong when it comes to competitive. Army choice matters more than your play with said army, and the results from events showcase this pretty hard. Good match-ups, better skills than the opponent etc are all big advantages that no player who wants to win should be willing to give up. But choosing to play with a handicap, and not taking every advantage available means you won't be favoured to win events (statistically anyways). Technically, Orks could "hold their own" in 7th, but no one would consider the codex unwarranting of a re-do or large scale army-wide buffs.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

Tau, Tyranids and Dark Eldar, probably Craftworld too. Most everything else you almost never see mono faction if you want to be good.

I Hear Orks are alright. Death Guard can do mono but IMHO is mid-tier at best.

GSC seem like they will be good mono.

Virtually everything else if you want to actually be competitive you are playing at a significant disadvantage if you aren't doing soup lists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/06 13:49:01


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Darsath wrote:
Spoiler:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, its a pity that most of the Marine codex armies cannot hold their own.
This particularly holds for GK, the first codex released in the 8th edition.
The vanilla SM codex is much better but still the mono factions described in there are not viable on their own.


They hold their own just fine, independent of some highly-visible posters' opinions.

Holding their own is entirely different from being #1, and largely bring nothing useful to the soup, but on their own they're more than playable if you want to play them.

Dark Eldar seems to be at the top for Mono-faction,
Then there's probably Eldar, Guard
Then probably Tau, Orks, CSM, and probably Deathwatch
Then Vanilla Marines, Blood Angels, Tyranids, and probably Sisters of Battle
Then Dark Angels and Necrons
Then Space Wolves
Then somewhere down there is Grey Knights


As much as I enjoy your optimism, I feel you're pretty much dead wrong when it comes to competitive. Army choice matters more than your play with said army, and the results from events showcase this pretty hard. Good match-ups, better skills than the opponent etc are all big advantages that no player who wants to win should be willing to give up. But choosing to play with a handicap, and not taking every advantage available means you won't be favoured to win events (statistically anyways). Technically, Orks could "hold their own" in 7th, but no one would consider the codex unwarranting of a re-do or large scale army-wide buffs.


Wasn't this already confined to mono lists?

There's no point to marines competitively because anything they bring is less than Guard or Knights can offer. Except for BA; they can bring stuff to the table, but that's limited somewhat. In addition, there's a lot of factions that don't bring anything to the table competitively, because they can't be part of the allies matrix and have indigenous weaknesses they can't overcome by adding a Knight or adding Guardsmen. On their own, versus another faction on their own, they're definitely okay though.


Marines have a couple major weaknesses, mostly stemming from being the first codex. First, their cost per CP is really high, because they have expensive very expensive heroic HQ's and somewhat expensive line infantry; so you'll pass over them for you CP generation. Second, their support units have been ignored, and their stratagems are defunct; a Predator tank, costs about the same as an Armiger or a Leman Russ Commander, and killshot requires hilarious investment into units you won't be able to buff to get +1 damage on one Predator's lascannons. Finally, nobody is trying to address either, because it's all about f****** tactical marines and terminators, apparently. There are three troop options for Space Marines, they need to offer appreciably different capabilities to be worthwhile, and if you try to "fix it" by taping special rules to them you're not meaningfully differentiating them from Scouts or Intercessors, and therefore not fixing them. Anyway, because they don't offer better CP generation that the Guard, or better support assets than Knights, the only real opening they can fill is for someone like Cpt. Smash.

That said, they do have good answers, if not a particularly wide selection of threats, and the units they have that are good are pretty adequate and have wide availability of buffs.

Also, WRT to army choice and etc. you're not right. Army composition matters, and so does your understanding of your units and how they interact with the board and the enemy. Because you need both to win, if either half is deficient, you lose.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/02/06 16:21:49


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Top mono-faction would be Imperial Guard. Before the Castellan they were the top faction in soup based ITC - AS A MONO FACTION, just with Shadowswords instead of Castellans.

After them it would be the Xenos. Order doesn't really matter. And Dark Eldar don't really function without Eldar to support them with Psychic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/06 17:51:41


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Holding their own is entirely different from being #1, and largely bring nothing useful to the soup, but on their own they're more than playable if you want to play them.
Hey, how dare you make a post without ridiculous over the top hyperbole and whining!

You get back down there and complain that if your army isn't winning every game, it sucks, RIGHT NOW!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/06 17:55:46


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





The thing that makes this stuff tricky is how bad the internal balance is in each codex.
Two thousand points of rangers, crimson hunter exarchs, dark reapers, wave serpents and shining spears supported by farseer and warlock powers are very good.
Two thousand points of dire avengers, vypers, falcons, striking scorpions and Wraithlords led by an autarch and phoenix lord is very much average, perfectly fun and playable but would get stomped by the above example.
If people build fluffy lists most armies are pretty comparable, if people cherry pick only the best units, which is what competitive players obviously do, then the big differences come out.

 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




I am not sure a fluffy eldar list, of the type you listed, is anywhere near the level of a fluff GK list. In fact the GK list would had to bring more or less a tournament list to play vs eldar and even then there would be huge problems, if the eldar player takes even one good unit.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Marmatag wrote:
Top mono-faction would be Imperial Guard.

Aaand you're wrong. Top mono-faction is DE. Guard IS in the top 3, but you whine about guard so much in every thread I'm going to ceaselessly correct you whenever I can.

I'd love to see some recent data (within the past 6 months) that shows mono-guard lists outperforming mono-drukhari lists.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

But actual data is the anti-marmatag.

Jokes aside, single-faction lists are a lot closer than a lot of posters are willing to admit.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





Karol wrote:
I am not sure a fluffy eldar list, of the type you listed, is anywhere near the level of a fluff GK list. In fact the GK list would had to bring more or less a tournament list to play vs eldar and even then there would be huge problems, if the eldar player takes even one good unit.


I don't know much about grey knights, but I gather they're pretty poor generally, so I'll defer to your experience.
But I'd say a fluffy list of marines with tacs, dreads, predators etc would be be a pretty even match for a list of avengers, wraithlords and falcons etc, for example.

 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





I'd say Grey Knights are the only faction that can't hold it's own mono.

They already started off on a bad foot, with expensive infantry and HQ's, no real antitank options, and having a lot of baked-in but unusable features, and then were hit with like 3 consecutive nerfs as a side effect of rules changes meant to bring other armies in line. In the process, their main shtick was also largely invalidated. You might be able to find a place for them as an auxiliary support faction for your other group, but then that raises the question: "Why not Scions?" who will bring everything the Grey Knights will add, but better, cheaper, and with more plasmaguns.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/06 23:20:36


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

w1zard wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Top mono-faction would be Imperial Guard.

Aaand you're wrong. Top mono-faction is DE. Guard IS in the top 3, but you whine about guard so much in every thread I'm going to ceaselessly correct you whenever I can.

I'd love to see some recent data (within the past 6 months) that shows mono-guard lists outperforming mono-drukhari lists.


I'd love to see data that is constructed based on mono-as-a-requirement tournaments and events.

All i can tell you is that mono guard has been winning tournaments. Although they don't need to be mono, because there is 0 downside to bringing a Castellan over a Shadowsword.

You can call me wrong all day, but it that doesn't make it true.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Marmatag wrote:
...All i can tell you is that mono guard has been winning tournaments....

Still waiting on that data.

Last time I checked the only mono list that won any tournaments recently was drukhari.

 Marmatag wrote:
Although they don't need to be mono, because there is 0 downside to bringing a Castellan over a Shadowsword.

That is more a problem with IK than with guard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/07 03:07:10


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Marines have a couple major weaknesses, mostly stemming from being the first codex. First, their cost per CP is really high, because they have expensive very expensive heroic HQ's and somewhat expensive line infantry; so you'll pass over them for you CP generation. Second, their support units have been ignored, and their stratagems are defunct; a Predator tank, costs about the same as an Armiger or a Leman Russ Commander, and killshot requires hilarious investment into units you won't be able to buff to get +1 damage on one Predator's lascannons.


Our group is almost exclusively running mono-armies and this is a pretty accurate descriptions of marine's problems. Their stuff is very easy to kill, they lack firepower (compared to Eldar, IG, knights), they have no functioning melee units combined with almost all characters being melee oriented, they have no powerful psychic powers despite their psykers being expensive and they lack mobility since most of their mobility comes from dysfunctional transports. They simply have no strengths they can play into.

I wonder why you put dark angels below vanilla marines though. With Azrael, Darkshrouds, WotDA Helblasters and their re-rolls for standing still they mitigate some of their weaknesses makes them feel a notch above regular marines.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





DE, CWE, IG, Orks and Tau are probably going to be top dogs, but by a small margin.

On a scale of a 1 to 10 i would put Orks, Tau and CWE on 10, IG and DE on 9, all other factions on 8, except vanilla SM and Admech on 7 and GK on 6.
The last 5 points of the scale would't be used, because all things are quite close.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




After the fly change, BA bring nothing. Just wanted to set the record straight on that. Capt Smash is dead. It was inevitable, being a one-model codex. BA might be worse than GK as a mono-faction now after the bolter change. BA have nothing going on in 8th ed anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Darsath wrote:
Spoiler:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, its a pity that most of the Marine codex armies cannot hold their own.
This particularly holds for GK, the first codex released in the 8th edition.
The vanilla SM codex is much better but still the mono factions described in there are not viable on their own.


They hold their own just fine, independent of some highly-visible posters' opinions.

Holding their own is entirely different from being #1, and largely bring nothing useful to the soup, but on their own they're more than playable if you want to play them.

Dark Eldar seems to be at the top for Mono-faction,
Then there's probably Eldar, Guard
Then probably Tau, Orks, CSM, and probably Deathwatch
Then Vanilla Marines, Blood Angels, Tyranids, and probably Sisters of Battle
Then Dark Angels and Necrons
Then Space Wolves
Then somewhere down there is Grey Knights


As much as I enjoy your optimism, I feel you're pretty much dead wrong when it comes to competitive. Army choice matters more than your play with said army, and the results from events showcase this pretty hard. Good match-ups, better skills than the opponent etc are all big advantages that no player who wants to win should be willing to give up. But choosing to play with a handicap, and not taking every advantage available means you won't be favoured to win events (statistically anyways). Technically, Orks could "hold their own" in 7th, but no one would consider the codex unwarranting of a re-do or large scale army-wide buffs.


Wasn't this already confined to mono lists?

There's no point to marines competitively because anything they bring is less than Guard or Knights can offer. Except for BA; they can bring stuff to the table, but that's limited somewhat. In addition, there's a lot of factions that don't bring anything to the table competitively, because they can't be part of the allies matrix and have indigenous weaknesses they can't overcome by adding a Knight or adding Guardsmen. On their own, versus another faction on their own, they're definitely okay though.


Marines have a couple major weaknesses, mostly stemming from being the first codex. First, their cost per CP is really high, because they have expensive very expensive heroic HQ's and somewhat expensive line infantry; so you'll pass over them for you CP generation. Second, their support units have been ignored, and their stratagems are defunct; a Predator tank, costs about the same as an Armiger or a Leman Russ Commander, and killshot requires hilarious investment into units you won't be able to buff to get +1 damage on one Predator's lascannons. Finally, nobody is trying to address either, because it's all about f****** tactical marines and terminators, apparently. There are three troop options for Space Marines, they need to offer appreciably different capabilities to be worthwhile, and if you try to "fix it" by taping special rules to them you're not meaningfully differentiating them from Scouts or Intercessors, and therefore not fixing them. Anyway, because they don't offer better CP generation that the Guard, or better support assets than Knights, the only real opening they can fill is for someone like Cpt. Smash.

That said, they do have good answers, if not a particularly wide selection of threats, and the units they have that are good are pretty adequate and have wide availability of buffs.

Also, WRT to army choice and etc. you're not right. Army composition matters, and so does your understanding of your units and how they interact with the board and the enemy. Because you need both to win, if either half is deficient, you lose.


Marines bleed points quickly. Their expensive units lack invulnerable saves, which is now mandatory in 8th. They still can't squeeze 13 pts of utility out of a marine. Intercessors are getting closer, especially the veterans. But again, they bleed points when targeted by multidamage weapons that are EVERYWHERE. The way 8th is written, hordes are just better.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/08 15:13:28


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




If you enforced mono factions, I think my Mono faction Knights actually move higher in the rankings, as many armies choose not to bring enough Anti armor firepower in faction, favoring Anti horde.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Anti-armor doesn't work vs IKs though. You need mortals and S5 spam.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Daemons do perfectly fine as a mono-army, while the loss of Thousand Sons Daemon Princes and their psychic powers and relics hurts you've still got up to three Daemon Princes and among the best Troops Choices in the game to pick from. The non-HQ, non-Troops choices are a bit meh, but the army as a whole is perfectly playable in a mono-Codex context.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
 
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