Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ketara wrote:


In a nutshell. Prepping for food is a bit pointless. I'll give a few stats to show why.

Right now, we're about 60% self-sufficient in foodstuffs as is right now. 10% of the remaining imports come from outside the EU (and will be unaffected).

No. A 30% reduction of food supplies, even if only on the short term will have major implications. Some food businesses will go under, others will have to raise prices, others will get greedy and follow suit. Inflation is highly likely, shortages in some areas also.
Also the 10% of non EU foodstuffs is also nonetheless mostly governed by EU trade deals with said countries. They will be effected.
This has the potential of being a major problem, at least on the short term.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Ketara wrote:


In a nutshell. Prepping for food is a bit pointless. I'll give a few stats to show why.

Right now, we're about 60% self-sufficient in foodstuffs as is right now. 10% of the remaining imports come from outside the EU (and will be unaffected).

No. A 30% reduction of food supplies, even if only on the short term will have major implications. Some food businesses will go under, others will have to raise prices, others will get greedy and follow suit. Inflation is highly likely, shortages in some areas also.
Also the 10% of non EU foodstuffs is also nonetheless mostly governed by EU trade deals with said countries. They will be effected.
This has the potential of being a major problem, at least on the short term.

Highly likely, potential..... could be, may, expected..... In a nut shell, no one knows. Business has to be prepared with a worse case scenario, but media outlets enjoy pumping out bad news, so we get the end of the world happening at the slightest change.

Until the day before, there will be lots of poker faces, then all the deals in secret, behind the backs of those stating there can be no deal, will be released, and the world won't end.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm going to start stocking up on kits, then, once we are out, offer to send them to Oz in exchange for kangaroo meat

Orlanth's Short Guide to Prepping in the UK

Prepping is a subject I should have covered earlier. Thank you for the thread.

First the T L: D R
If you live in the UK you should be prepping now, it is likely not too late to meaningfully prep, but may be soon. Buy tins, lots and lots of tins.


Should I be prepping?

Short answer is yes, but some caveats apply. If you are so filthy rich that the lives of the average citizen are distant from you, you probably dont need to prep. Same for highly mobile people, people with multiple passports and people with desirable professions that command high compensation for their work need not prep either. Though on the other hand preparing to leave is a form a prepping in itself, though not one covered fully here.

There is more to it than just Brexit. In the modern UK of Universal credit rollout and zero hour contracts many people in the UK should already be prepping. Now unlike brexit the other two circumstances named dont effect everyone, but can effect more people than you might realise. If you have an accident, or fall ill and can no longer work then Universal Credit might apply to you, with all the clusterfeth that that entails. If you are disabled, unemployed or have a zero hours employment then you should already be prepping.

As for Brexit. Well there are many options. Covered very briefly if you think Brexit is a great leap forward please note that even pro-Brexit pundits believe it will take a while for the golden future to arrive, as new teade etc needs to be set up. You will need to prep in the meantime. If you are a remainer and think the whole exercise is a potential disaster waiting to happen, are you prepping? You should be, and if you are one of those who is certain Brexit is an inevitable total nightmare and somehow you are not yourself prepping then frankly you are an idiot.
Some people think it will not be so bad. I hope you are right, I really do. But No Deal is a realistic outcome at this stage and people should be paying more attention to that. Sadly i see no evidence of this. With seven weeks to go most times I visit the supermarket i see people go in for a little milk, bread and catfood, other make a larger regular ship, too few, way too few, are leaving with a trolley full of tins or dried goods.
The thing is, if No Deal is still a possibility by mid-March everyone will be a prepper, including those on this thread who think there is no risk no danger as panic buying begins. Thing is by then it may be too late.

The stigma of prepping.

Sadly prepping carries a stigma. It is associated with conspiracy nuts, tin foilers and those who want to survive the zombie apocalypse or alien invasion. Brexit is NOT a fantasy. Universal Credit is NOT a fantasy. Brexit may result in a huge economic downturn and major resource shortages. Universal Credit can result in medium term destitution, and already has claimed the lives of many unprepared people.
Please shake off the stigma and start prepping, you need not tell anyone, in fact you shouldn't, but more on that later.

Downsides of prepping.

Lets say you dodge Universal credit and there is a late deal that mitigates most of the potential problems of Brexit. You have wasted all those resources prepping. Well no. If you are careful how you prep, which will be explained below you will not suffer from your preparedness.
As for low income, you can prep on low income, you just have to be more careful how you buy and might have to forgo luxuries for a short while so that you can fill up with essential supplies. In fact if Universal Credit rollout is possible for you you should already be prepping for low income. There are many videos on YouTube about Universal Credit prepping I will cover these techniques in their own section.
Remember if you prep and consider you have had no need to, you have stocks that you can naturally use over the course of the coming year, prep well and you can live well, and if you had to make sacrifices to prep later this year you can live on the surplus and channel more of your income back into hobbies and luxury goods, possibly affording you items you might not otherwise have afforded. Preparation is a reward in itself.


How to Prep.

1. Like fight club, don't talk about it.

Ok, breaking rule 1 in a way, but I have the semi-anonymity of the internet to shield me. Certainly people in my local community don't know i am prepping. Why? Two reasons. First people stigmatise preppers, sometimes for good reason, but there you go. More importantly people can get desperate if in a tight spot. If the worst comes to the worst the desperate will come to the prepared and demand sustenance. Now say you are a sharing generous guy, still be careful. Remember Machiavelli's principle. If you are generous, especially if you are forced into a position of generosity (i.e you have a large stash, we have nothing, give us some...) then as soon as you are no longer able to provide, or choose not to you are seen as a miser, worse than if you had never given anything to begin with. And in the case of desperate people this will not go well for you.
The state might also look at you differently. We might want to think that if you prepare then you are wise and those who did not are short sighted. This will be true to the point when local government might blame people for short sightedness and limit help, but preparedness is conversely not seen as foresight, but hoarding.
This is precisely what happened to the 1939 preppers. Excepting those in power or authority, who could have larger larders to themselves, if the common man saw the signs, and a great many did, and started to prep buying dry stores and tins; they were expected to 'share', and if you think share meant equitable distribution I have a bridge to sell you.
However the primary reason not to openly prep is because your home may become a crime magnet. Sadly if you get a reputation of having stores when around you those who didn't store up have none, you will still be targeted long after all you have is taken away,
I am painting a bleak picture, but not an unrealistic one, Societal breakdown is only ever one week of distribution failure away, and it might not even take a week.


2. How much should I prep.

Wallets are as full as string is long. Prep according to your measure. Not everyone can have a years supply of good in their homes. The Mormon church has this as a tenet, but the Mormons prep a little at a time over either whole lives so after the initial outlay do not notice. Even two weeks supply is going to make a huge difference. If suddenly on Universal Credit, or face a benefits strike, a two week supply of food could have meant the difference between life and death in many cases. It takes longer than that to starve, but two weeks will allow you to adapt to circumstances without having to wonder when your next meal is coming from. Those who cannot start adapting cant continue to adapt.
I cannot put a reasonable target goal for supply accumulation, ultimately the more the better, and please remember that more also means more opportunity for variety in what you store, ultimately a large preppers larder is just a well stocked larder, don't be afraid to dig into it, just replace what you use.
The other point about volume of prepping is that what you prep lasts as long as circumstances require.

Say you buy tins of curry and packets of rice. One tin plus a portion of rice is a meal for one person. In harder times it could be a mean a meal for three people, supplies can stretch to account for desperation, and frankly should. If you are alone and facing a personal disaster, say Universal Credit waiting time have a tin a day each of meat vegetables and pudding. When the zombies come those same three tins are a day's survival rations for you and your whole warband of shotgun and fireman's axe wielding loons, OK, bit carried away there but the point is the worse it gets the more you can realistically stretch supplies.


3. What to prep.


Frozen foods?

First lets discuss food, and that normally means tins and dried goods. You can include frozens too but depends what you are prepping for. Universal credit waiting is a problem you can overcome with frozen meals, but if Brexit causes shortages which causes power outages, frozen might not be as good a solution. Do buy some frozen for longer term prepping but use it first. I would say three days supply is fine, because you can choose to eat it now and replace as you go along, and if you do get power failure you have the equivalent of three days fresh food.
Also don't laugh at prepping for power failure, it need not mean the zombies have got into the power station, or the Russians launch EMP or anything, you can get to this state if Universal Credit takes its merry time and you can't afford the electricity bill.
Also remember frozen goods have a long life but do decay. It requires special refrigeration to minus 40 or below before you can store foodstuff indefinitely by freezing them. So unlike tins you will need to rotate out and use your frozens over time. It also costs energy to store, obvious, but don't overlook this. If you are a frozen food prepper and need to defrost the freezer, or turn it off while going on holiday for a month you are going to have problems if you cant clear it. Its a bad idea to keep a full freezer anyway, things tend to get forgotten at the bottom.

Dried foods.

These normally require a lot of water, which isn't normally a problem, in most realistic prepping scenarios. Rice and pasta lasts a long time, technically indefinitely. The trick here is storage units. Get sealed containers to keep out any moisture and also rodents. Bags of pasta are fine for general storage but a mouse can smell through that. You need to place those bags in sealed containers for a double layer. Mice can gnaw through plastic, but generally wont if they have no reason to.
The main problem with dried goods is a relative lack of nutrition, this is not a problem if you mix dried goods with tinned, in fact it is optimal to do so.
When buying dried foods don't immediately go for the large bags of rice or pasta, check the price per weight on the labeling on the shelving, larger bags don't necessarily mean better value. It is not uncommon for two 500g bags of pasta to cost less than one 1kg bag of pasta.

Tinned foods.

This should be the bulk of your purchases. Some people decry tins as inferior to fresh etc. Ignore that rubbish, you can have additives in tinned goods that is true but you also tend to lack preservatives and sometimes even most colouring as you see the tin on the shelf not a transparent packaging for food that need to be artificially beautified. With some minor exceptions you can live a perfectly healthy live entirely off tinned foods, and while some food are not easily tinned or are unrealistically expensive when done so, such as tinned bread, you can cover most needs.

I should stop to take the time to explain tinning to you. Tinning was invented by Nicholas Appert in the late 18th century and the system he used is more or less the same as the system today. In a nutshell food is cooked in the tin which is then sealed driving out all air. The contents of a tin of food are sterile and so long as the tin is intact the food within is good to eat. People have eaten century old tins will no ill effect, your tins could easily be good for that long.
When buying tins reject all dented ones, this doesn't matter if you want to buy a tin for immediate or short term use, but if you want to store them for long term this becomes important. Dented tins have a pinch where the metal is weakened, the tin can corrode or even break at that point and can break in the tin dooms th contents within. If you catch a tin as it breaks you can consume it, but if you leave it or don't notice the contents will quietly putrify. They can also leak causing a nasty mess.

Do check nutritional information but don't be afraid to buy white label tinned goods. Due to the processes involved cheap tins are often no worse than expensive ones. However tastes vary, if you want to stock up on a cheap white label curry try one and use it now, see if you like the curry, if you don't there is no point buying fifty, As a rule of thumb the simpler the food the more you can rely on while label. Something complex like a tin of curry and you get what you pay for, though a £1 curry is better than a £1.50 curry because at the volumes you want to buy them in for prepping you cannot afford to waste money. However a 70p cheap white label curry might be garbage to you. But Orlanth, this is survival right? Not necessarily, if you prep for Brexit or Universal Credit you still don't want to eat foul tasting crap, an average curry can be as good as a premium one. Test the tins and see what you can afford to buy lots of.
Now with simpler foods like custard, fruit and vegetables white label is generally best, there isn't too much to go wrong by going cheap with tinned custard. Yes there is often a taste difference, but not one so enormous that it is not worthwhile getting those 20p tins.

Other goods.

Don't forget the basics, toilet roll, kitchen roll, tampons, toothpaste, nappies, bin bags, include as appropriate, just buy more than you normally would and slowly build up a larger regular supply. Done this way it isn't really even prepping, just having more. Also consider matches, candles, batteries, bleach, disinfectant and some medicinals with long shelf lives. Unlike most goods where you can wing a sell by date, especially sell by dates on tins, don't use out of date medicinals unless desperate and know what you are doing. Frankly don't even then.


Tips and Tricks.

If you buy tinned goods you like then if you find you have no reason to prep anymore you can add that to your menu over time. Toilet roll will always be useful, even if you bought bulk and cheap and normally have better than that. However some items are very good for survival storage but only needed if you have a real survival need,

- Powdered milk. Doesn't take as nice as regular moo juice, especially on the longer term, but powdered milk is the Number One preppers survival product, unless you are lactose intolerant that is. Powdered milk contains all the vitamins you need in one single product, and the energy to live on. It is why powdered milk is so often used as a primary food aid package, as its easy to transport, easy to store and if all else fails you can mount a successful aid program on that one product alone, though better if added to rice. You could just buy powdered milk and rice and say done. Problem is it isn't very satisfying to live on that alone, depressing even, so its not unreasonable to collect that last.
I am prepping fairly heavily and have for some time now but have no powdered milk, because it is something that I would not normally use if I no longer have to prep. Hence i will buy that last. If left with fifty tins of curry or fifty tins of tomatoes i can eat those, but five kilos of powdered milk will be wasted so long as I can buy fresh. I will be buying powdered milk this time next month if No Deal is still a possibility.

- Flavourful sauces. Note that if you do buy a lot of white label tins, or even otherwise remember to also buy strongly flavoured sauces that you like. Hot sauce covers a multitude of culinary sins, and pepper, soy, worcester sauce and others are worthy buys. Tomato and brown sauce less so as you need larger volumes to make use, can be wasteful and often require refrigeration after opening. Worcester and soy sauce can sit on the shelf forever and is a good condiment, especially as you don't need much, and the taste covering benefits of chilli or garlic need no explanation if you like that.
Note that I restrict this tip to bottles of condiment sauce, not cook in sauces due to the volumes concerned. Not to say you shouldn't prep with cook in sauces, if you like them why not, but they can be expensive and don't add anything you don't get from a regular tin. However a cheap tin of curry, plus a small amount of a quality curry powder can really make the meal where you get your money's worth.

- Large stackable containers. Buy these for storing your foods. You could separate them by item but I think you should separate them by time. Instead of storing all the rice together et al, store a weeks supply of all foods in one box, then make up another box for another week. It will help you with rationing and help you visualise how much stores you have left. Note that you should also have monthly boxes for those items that you might use up over a month rather than a week. Finally seasonal boxes for those items you expect to last. What goes in what box is up to you, and you might consider making fortnightly boxes rather than weekly depending on how many people you are supporting for.
If preparing for short term problem s like possible Universal Credit then you won't need seasonal boxes.


4. Prepping for Universal Credit.

This is a separate concern, you will need to prep for Universal Credit if UC is going to be unveiled in your area and you are likely to be on a related benefit, which means low income, unemployment or disability. Universal Credit might leave you with zero income for up to two months, in some cases longer. In the past it could be longer still and there was no support, hence the deaths. Universal Credit is something social services are on the lookout for and is no longer liable to kill the unprepared, but it can seriously disrupt your life and cause great distress.

Here are some tips to minimise the disruption.

a. Store at least two weeks food and basic supplies. You will need this much to adjust to UC. Do this now.
b. When UC occurs remove all monies from your bank account, put it under the matress or elsewhere. DO NOT SPEND IT.
c. Ask for your first UC payment to be made now because you have no money in your account. This is not lying. You are now entitled to one advance payment for UC because of the embarrassment the government felt after many people died due to difficulties in UC transition.
d. Talk to everyone you have bills due, energy suppliers, landlord etc. Withhold payment from all you can but let everyone know you are on UC and payments will be resumed eventually. Most will be accepting of that if grudgingly.
e. Use all stored monies, and the advance payment to keep you going for the two months until payments resume. While you have to 'pay back' the advance payment, it is part of your ongoing claim so by the time you get your first cheque you wont notice the debit much, but will notice the extra monies at the beginning.
f. Remember that UC is likely to be less than what you were originally on, sometimes considerably less and there might be additional hoops to jump through, some provisions as part of UC might be tests for eligibility on an ongoing basis. So when you do get your monies dont fall at the final hurdle. You will get two or more months UC all at once, a bonanza, however that includes rent money, and is also paid in arrears. Too many claimants spend their first payment quickly without budgeting and then fall into a new cycle of debt, or worse dont rid themselves of any debt generated in the transition. This can seriously feth you up long term. Be careful, budget carefully when UC payments finally come and don't assume that you are going to get a regular benefit, UC doesn't work like that, its designed to be flickered on and off according to 'circumstances'.

5. Prepping for Benefit strike.

This applies to people on JSA. If you have a problem with your JSA claim even if not actually your fault you can be sanctioned for up to six months. If facing a sanction you are basically screwed if you did not prepare. Unlike Universal Credit, which is imposed on a region from on high, you can do much to prevent a Benefit strike from occurring to begin with, though some of that involves seeding and preparation.

a. Make sure you dot every 'i' and cross every 't' with regards to your JSA contract, no matter how petty and minor. Do not be late for any meeting ever, and if you are have an excuse. Do not give the JSA office access to your online work history, it will only add extra ammo against you. Print out every activity to make sure you have a track record that cannot be argued against.
b. Again store at least two weeks supplies if on JSA. This is just a start, because things will go very badly for you very quickly, but despite having to find new ways to support yourself you still need to continue to jump through JSA hoops or your strike will be extended.
c. Most important tip. Be nice to your benefits advisor. I cannot stress enough what a difference this makes, They are people too, if they see you as a fellow human being and not a statistic they might consider overlooking opportunities to strike your benefit. Remember that they get a performance tick if they strike peoples benefits, its matters little whether this is deserved, or how petty, and over time some minor infractions are bound to happen. The passmark to avoid a benefits strike is 100% compliance, anything less than that can you may be sanctioned, as there is a kickback for doing so it is not unlike to happen. Your primary defence other than maintaining a perfect JSA record is to have people in the Jobcentre who have your back. What matters to the government is that claims are down, not whether this is handled ethically, from what I have heard there have even been quotas of sanctions in some offices.
d. If you have a benefit strike you might be eligible for a hardship payment from your local council.
e. If this happens to you find your local food bank, church or mosque. In that order, regardless of your cultural orientation or beliefs, unless affiliated already, these three are the most likely to help. Get ongoing help in order to feed yourself.

Ultimately due to the long lasted effects of benefit strikes it is no really possible to fully proper for them by the people this applies to. Those in danger of this cannot possibly store up for the expected duration of the crisis, six months no money per strike. Stay alive. Benefit strikes kill people, even more so than UC failures, and many strikes are unwarranted or unfair. Appeals take a long time, but in the meantime benefits are stopped and hunger and bills are not deferred. Expect little sympathy from most officials and society at large.

I for one, welcome the Mad Max style Wasteland to come. If Fallout has taught me anything, it's that I need to prep thoroughly and collect as many desk fans and toasters as possible to make sweet sweet upgrades for my Fat Man.

 Ketara wrote:
I for one, welcome the Mad Max style Wasteland to come. If Fallout has taught me anything, it's that I need to prep thoroughly and collect as many desk fans and toasters as possible to make sweet sweet upgrades for my Fat Man.

I seriously doubt that gak is going to hit the fan so hard that you will have Fallout esque raiderbands pillaging everything.

That said, it would be in no interest to eitherside to escalate certain unnamed issues.

 Ketara wrote:
I for one, welcome the Mad Max style Wasteland to come. If Fallout has taught me anything, it's that I need to prep thoroughly and collect as many desk fans and toasters as possible to make sweet sweet upgrades for my Fat Man.

For some reason, a few years ago I started to save bottlecaps in a kitchen drawer. There's quite a number of them in there, now and I've been wondering what the point was of hanging on to them.

Now I know!

Going to make me a railway rifle. Choo-choo.

I feel that EVERY family needs to, no matter what situation you are in, be able to survive a minimum of 2 weeks without leaving the home. I've been in floods, extremely cold, snowy winters without electrical power, and tornadoes.

Food: I once found out that a single shopping cart at Sam's Club can get me enough calories to survive 6 months. My top 6 food stuffs to stock up on for cheap money; Long grain white rice, dried beans, honey, peanut butter, powdered milk, Spam. If this is all you buy it will get you through. However, feel free so get other non-perishables as well.

Water: Bottled water is easy, but there are cheaper options. 5-gallon water jugs can be had VERY cheap ($6 at my local Wal-Mart) and are tough. A few of these can last you a while. Fill them and add a couple drops of bleach (perfectly safe). It will store for a couple years that way. Perhaps invest in some new, clean plastic rain barrels or trash cans for rain collection. Water purifier pumps are pretty cheap.

Clothes. I'm a size 14 shoe. I keep 3 spare sets, just in case. That's because even under normal circumstances they are hard to find. Have a good supply of anything you might need. Washing clothes might not be an option, and being dirty is a good way to get sick.

Medical: Build up a month of all necessary meds. In addition, rubbing alcohol, band aids( various sizes), gauze, and medical tape. Anti-diarrhea pills are a necessity, and I'd also stock up on Tylenol. Baby wipes to keep clean when there isn't water for a shower.

Security: People that don't think ahead WILL steal from those that did. Deadbolts are a must. A super easy way improve a door is to buy a $10 door prop from Wal-Mart. It wedges under the door handle and onto the floor. I tested one with ONLY that keeping a door shut (latch taped open) and my 350 pound body didn't budge it. Battery operated motion activated security lights can help too. Also, keep your curtains shut. No one needs to be looking in to see what you do or do not have. Limit their temptation

Misc.: Batteries, stock up. Have at least 3 flashlights. Battery radio. Cash (keep well hidden). I also have a couple cheap 36-channel walkie-talkie for emergencies.

Also, decide if you want to go alone, hermit style, or forge a group. Groups can look out for one another, but I'd only go for one or maybe two neighbors, and make sure you can REALLY trust them.

Also, entertainment. You will be shut in a lot more than usual. Have a good supply of books, magazines, and board games, or any other activity you can think of. Change activities often. Being bored will make you want to do stupid things.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I feel that EVERY family needs to, no matter what situation you are in, be able to survive a minimum of 2 weeks without leaving the home.
....
Clothes. I'm a size 14 shoe. I keep 3 spare sets, just in case.

You sly fox. You go outside for a little while leaving your prints everywhere then hide at home for a fortnight while people go around looking for sasquatch. Repeat.


Good post though. The US is different, we don't get many monster snows, though the press claims we do so, much to the mirth of Canadians and Norwegians. Tornadoes flash floods, miss all those. We don't need natural disasters, we have governmental decisions. Though it appears you now have a touch of that madness too.
However excellent advice and again savvy over not advertising your preparedness from someone who has seen it.

Bleach in water barrels. OK, will remember that. Though clean water shortage is not a major problem in the UK. I will admit to buying a box of 2000 water purification tablets off ebay. On a basis of, its best to have it and not need it. They are in a sealed plastic box.

Something to look for are Bruschetta. This is a form of dried bread, keeps indefinitely, and useful for anyone not willing or able to make their own bread. Overlooked product over in the Uk but inexpensive.

 Ketara wrote:
I for one, welcome the Mad Max style Wasteland to come. If Fallout has taught me anything, it's that I need to prep thoroughly and collect as many desk fans and toasters as possible to make sweet sweet upgrades for my Fat Man.

Don't you mean it will be a world full of bugs, sunlight that can penetrate through the ground and microtransactions...

 Orlanth wrote:
Orlanth's Short Guide to Prepping in the UK
Prepping is a subject I should have covered earlier. Thank you for the thread.

There's a lot of mentions of tinned curry in there... I hope your bunker has adequate ventilation/sanitation.

 Riquende wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Orlanth's Short Guide to Prepping in the UK
Prepping is a subject I should have covered earlier. Thank you for the thread.

There's a lot of mentions of tinned curry in there... I hope your bunker has adequate ventilation/sanitation.

Curry was an example, most tinned meats are either expensive, or very bland.
Tinned chilli and curry is the exception. You get 400g tins for about £1. SPAM and equivalent products cost more for less, though the meat is solid, so I give it that.

Also in my article I didn't mention bunkers, because it isn't that sort of prepping. Now I have heard that prepping for one type of disaster leaves one exposed to others, but frankly if I need a bunker I haven't got one, not even a decent cellar. If there is a nuclear war I am going to die like most other people in the UK. The temporary chaos after a no deal Brexit I can survive.

Anyway i do have a fair bit of curry and chilli, and rice which is the real wind generator. My mainstays are things I can gather for a low price. Tinned tomatoes for 25p, custard for 21p, peach slices for 33p, sweetcorn 34p, pasta 45p a bag. I have stocked up a fair bit on those and want to buy more.

Smart prepping means buying things you don't mind eating anyway, so that if nothing bad happens you can live on the stocks. However I might consider a 3 month dry/tinned store anyway from this point onward. If I lose my income it will come in handy. Universal Credit is a potential problem for me, but not one that is likely.

Something that used to be common here in the US that is starting to die out is home-canning. Back in the 1980's many people still did it, but today few people do.

It's a shame really. For a single day of labor you can make enough preserved canned food to last a month, for a tiny fraction of the price of actually buying it. It is also likely better for you, and you can tailor it to your taste.

Back when my parents were younger, between home canning and hunting they probably shaved 50% off our food budget.

It'll be fine. May will just keep repeating herself loudly and slowly until the foreigners 'get' it. It's how Britain and the Brits have dealt with the world at large for basically forever.

And the schadenfreude in watching it all fall apart is wonderful.

Tinned chilli

Whatever you do, DON'T get yourself "John Wayne" as we call it. just don't. Atleast not the one we used in the military.

After 2 doses of it in 2 days people have begun detonating it instead of eating, me included.

It'll be fine. May will just keep repeating herself loudly and slowly until the foreigners 'get' it. It's how Britain and the Brits have dealt with the world at large for basically forever.

And the schadenfreude in watching it all fall apart is wonderful.

The fallout of this however will not be worth the Schadenfreude.

Not in a hundred years.

 Orlanth wrote:

Also in my article I didn't mention bunkers, because it isn't that sort of prepping. Now I have heard that prepping for one type of disaster leaves one exposed to others, but frankly if I need a bunker I haven't got one, not even a decent cellar. If there is a nuclear war I am going to die like most other people in the UK. The temporary chaos after a no deal Brexit I can survive.

There is zero point in building a bunker.

They would only be helpful in a hypothetical nuclear attack (or perhaps as a very secure stockpile), but even then, the use is incredibly limited. For starters, most of the population has no ability to even contemplate one, living in flats or rented accommodation. Anything you could build in the back garden of your suburban house is also going to be pretty tiny. Only those living in rural areas have any reasonable ability to build a decently-sized bunker.

A small bunker is pointless- any direct hit from a nuclear device is likely to destroy you whatever defenses you have thrown up, short of a very deep bunker (and even then...), so no back-garden bunker is going to help there. You might survive in the cellar of a skyscraper, but then you are most likely trapped there. However, a lot of the population is unlikely to be killed by the initial explosions- even in the UK, the area to cover and the way modern nuclear weapons rely on a multitude of small warheads rather than a few big ones means that many deaths are likely to occur from acute radiation poisoning (and ultimately chronic radiation exposure). Outside of the big cities, areas are unlikely to be directly targeted at all. It is just not worth targeting a town of 80,000 people in, say, Shropshire when 13 million live within the M25. So either you die instantly, or you have a good chance to improve things for yourself through canny evacuation procedures. As rural areas are only going to be hit by sporadic warheads that have missed their targets/are aimed at military installations, investing in large bunkers is also unlikely to be helpful.

So you can't do anything about the main detonations (except try and get out of a major city as quickly as possible- unlikely), so all preparation for a nuclear attack should revolve around surviving the fallout. The acutely dangerous levels of radiation from a nuclear attack occur in the initial blasts and for the first few days afterwards. Nuclear weapons do not contaminate the ground anywhere near as bad as nuclear power plants. Therefore, the primary goal is to find sufficient shelter to protect from radiation initially, and then to move away from the blast zones once the initial radiation has dissipated.

A small back-garden bunker could be useful here. But frankly, it is no more useful than any hard-skinned building, and you are better off finding a cellar or a large concrete building of some kind unless you can make a bunker with walls and ceiling over a foot (30cm) thick. Any brick, stone, or concrete building will provide good protection. Cellars are best, and the more stories of building above you, the better. However, if you can find no hard-skinned building before the attack hits, literally any cover is better than none- even a wooden shed is worth it for the initial radiation blast, and may save your life. Thankfully, hard-skinned buildings are very common in the UK, so it should be easy enough to find at least a brick building to shelter in. I know that the US has a much higher number of soft-skinned buildings, so this advice is more pertinent there.

The difference is how long you should stay put- if your initial cover is poor, then you should relocate to a hard-skinned building very soon- up to an hour at most. If your cover is good, you should wait for a few days, or even a week if you can, before leaving the area to less irradiated areas, unless directed to do so earlier (government services should have a handle of which way the fallout has travelled). By this point, surviving emergency and military services will likely be directing any evacuation efforts.

The other key point is to avoid drinking any water that has not come out of a bottle during this period if possible, unless you have already received thyroid protection. Radioactive iodine is one of the longest-lived isotopes produced in such blasts, and can cause a lot of thyroid damage and thyroid cancer.

There have been studies done on the optimum time to wait in different types of structures before seeking better shelter/evacuating the area. This article actually discussing some of them, and is eminently sensible.

In other words, if a nuclear attack is incoming, hide at the bottom of the biggest building you can find and wait until you are evacuated. If you have to (say a fire or something) then move to another hard-skinned building as quickly as you can.

 Haighus wrote:

A small bunker is pointless- any direct hit from a nuclear device is likely to destroy you whatever defenses you have thrown up, short of a very deep bunker (and even then...), so no back-garden bunker is going to help there. You might survive in the cellar of a skyscraper, but then you are most likely trapped there. However, a lot of the population is unlikely to be killed by the initial explosions- even in the UK, the area to cover and the way modern nuclear weapons rely on a multitude of small warheads rather than a few big ones means that many deaths are likely to occur from acute radiation poisoning (and ultimately chronic radiation exposure). Outside of the big cities, areas are unlikely to be directly targeted at all. It is just not worth targeting a town of 80,000 people in, say, Shropshire when 13 million live within the M25. So either you die instantly, or you have a good chance to improve things for yourself through canny evacuation procedures. As rural areas are only going to be hit by sporadic warheads that have missed their targets/are aimed at military installations, investing in large bunkers is also unlikely to be helpful.

It largely depends on the yield of the weapons. It only takes about 9 of the largest ones ever created to basically impact most people that were exposed. It's not just fallout that is the problem but thermal radiation from the blast that can basically cook your insides. In these cases an underground bunker woudl also help as it you will be shielded from the worst impacts.

https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

Yeah. If you are near a nuclear blast you are probably dead, however as was pointed out unless you are in a major population center or near a high value military target you will not be nuked. There simply aren’t enough nukes to spare for minor civilian targets.

Fallout only lasts about 2 weeks. So if you can find a place to hide and not go outside for 2 weeks you will survive it nicely too. After that, even initial blast zones will be relatively safe to enter as modern nuclear weapons do not leave vast amounts of nuclear material behind.

The real killer of a nuclear war is the EMP and the disruptions it will cause to infrastructure. Any vehicles which use computer chips will cease to work, which means no transportation is available. Which means that food will not be transported where it is needed. Which means most people who do survive the blasts will starve.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

A small bunker is pointless- any direct hit from a nuclear device is likely to destroy you whatever defenses you have thrown up, short of a very deep bunker (and even then...), so no back-garden bunker is going to help there. You might survive in the cellar of a skyscraper, but then you are most likely trapped there. However, a lot of the population is unlikely to be killed by the initial explosions- even in the UK, the area to cover and the way modern nuclear weapons rely on a multitude of small warheads rather than a few big ones means that many deaths are likely to occur from acute radiation poisoning (and ultimately chronic radiation exposure). Outside of the big cities, areas are unlikely to be directly targeted at all. It is just not worth targeting a town of 80,000 people in, say, Shropshire when 13 million live within the M25. So either you die instantly, or you have a good chance to improve things for yourself through canny evacuation procedures. As rural areas are only going to be hit by sporadic warheads that have missed their targets/are aimed at military installations, investing in large bunkers is also unlikely to be helpful.

It largely depends on the yield of the weapons. It only takes about 9 of the largest ones ever created to basically impact most people that were exposed. It's not just fallout that is the problem but thermal radiation from the blast that can basically cook your insides. In these cases an underground bunker woudl also help as it you will be shielded from the worst impacts.

https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

Just being in the ground floor of a large, concrete building will provide similar protection to a small bunker in your back garden, so long as you are not near any windows. There were actually some survivors of one of the bombs dropped on Japan from very close to the fireball, because they were within a stone/concrete bank rather than a wooden-and-paper building (as was typical for Japan at the time). Any brick, stone, or concrete building is going to protect you from the initial radiation wave pretty effectively if you stay away from the windows and bunker down as best you can.

Of course, if you can bury your bunker reasonably deep, it will be better, but at that stage you are going to start running into issues of cost, planning regulations and the like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah. If you are near a nuclear blast you are probably dead, however as was pointed out unless you are in a major population center or near a high value military target you will not be nuked. There simply aren’t enough nukes to spare for minor civilian targets.

Fallout only lasts about 2 weeks. So if you can find a place to hide and not go outside for 2 weeks you will survive it nicely too. After that, even initial blast zones will be relatively safe to enter as modern nuclear weapons do not leave vast amounts of nuclear material behind.

The real killer of a nuclear war is the EMP and the disruptions it will cause to infrastructure. Any vehicles which use computer chips will cease to work, which means no transportation is available. Which means that food will not be transported where it is needed. Which means most people who do survive the blasts will starve.

I actually don't know enough about EMP to give a definitive answer, but will the EMP blast from a nuke really render all modern vehicles inoperable? For a start, won't the metal shell of a vehicle provide some shielding, as well as surrounding buildings, and I thought that switched-off electronics were also partly protected too?

In addition, many vehicles will be on the road between major settlements, so they are likely to escape due to lack of proximity to major population centres? Add in the huge drop in population caused by immediate deaths, and there won't need to be so much food infrastructure. Surviving military reserves are also likely to be mobilised to provide additional transport and stabilise the country- military vehicles being routinely EMP and NBC hardened nowadays.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something I forgot to add before is that a MilSurp gasmask with a handful of spare filters will help a lot in such situations to reduce fallout exposure- alpha and beta radiation sources are not especially harmful on the skin, but can be harmful if ingested/breathed in. An effective NBC gasmask will further reduce the radiation exposure from fallout.

Of course, it goes without saying that if you do this, you will need to make sure your respirator filters are in date, and you know how to apply the mask in a hurry.

There will be no stabilization post nuclear war in the UK. Civil protection is pretty much non existent, and what few resources there were assigned to civil defense were scrapped at the end of the cold war.

In 1980 when nuclear preparation was at least on the public agenda 'Protect and Survive' was no better than Neglect and Die.

There is something better than concrete to help protect you from radiation. Steel stops way more radiation per inch than concrete. If you have few options, getting into a shipping container on a ship or inside a building isn't a bad idea.

I'm not some doomsday nut, but I did stumble across some stuff that I might put into effect at some point. One of my life goals is to find a spot of semi-rural land to make a weekend cabin to hang out in. Prefabbed tiny homes are readily available, but they have no basement. I then found out Lowes (the home improvement store) actually sells tiny bunkers.

These tiny steel bunkers are meant as tornado shelters, but do have electrical and water hookups built-in. The company that makes them will ship most of their products to any Lowes for free. An 8x16 foot bunker with stairwell is about $8000. I was thinking that burying one of these before placing a prefab cabin on top would make a decent basement. For added durability you could also pour concrete around it .



Another place to avoid fallout is in a tall building. If you can place at least 6 floors below you (more is better) and at least 4 floors over you (more is better) it will drastically cut down on fallout exposure. If in an office building, make a "bunker" by pulling metal filing cabinets around you.

 cuda1179 wrote:
There is something better than concrete to help protect you from radiation. Steel stops way more radiation per inch than concrete. If you have few options, getting into a shipping container on a ship or inside a building isn't a bad idea.

I'm not some doomsday nut, but I did stumble across some stuff that I might put into effect at some point. One of my life goals is to find a spot of semi-rural land to make a weekend cabin to hang out in. Prefabbed tiny homes are readily available, but they have no basement. I then found out Lowes (the home improvement store) actually sells tiny bunkers.

These tiny steel bunkers are meant as tornado shelters, but do have electrical and water hookups built-in. The company that makes them will ship most of their products to any Lowes for free. An 8x16 foot bunker with stairwell is about $8000. I was thinking that burying one of these before placing a prefab cabin on top would make a decent basement. For added durability you could also pour concrete around it .

Another place to avoid fallout is in a tall building. If you can place at least 6 floors below you (more is better) and at least 4 floors over you (more is better) it will drastically cut down on fallout exposure. If in an office building, make a "bunker" by pulling metal filing cabinets around you.

The only problem with finding a high rise is that these are generally in the centre of cities which are prime targets for the nukes if all hell breaks loose (in the UK anyway).
Yes metal is generally better (lead being ideal).

As for alpha and beta radiation, alpha won't get through your dead skin cells so outside your body is fairly safe (except for new skin such as when repairing from burns). Beta will get through to the skin layer and can cause damage there. However it can be easier to excise any small tumours. Gamma generally goes straight through us and except in extremely high doses is generally safe (in a post nuclear fallout type of way). As noted alpha and beta radiation is really problematic when it gets inside through food, water and air.

I think I should get some extra milk to prepare for slowed infrastructure in the unlikely event of a no deal Brexit

[Three pages]

This is how to prepare for the classic TV Movie Threads.

Never change.

I always thought that the problem with alot of this is most people will have families that won't be doing this - often elderly that will need to be helped, protected etc and who donlt live near by.

EMPs have a range significantly larger than the blast. It would only take a couple high altitude detonations to cover the entire US in enough disruption to render most vehicles, and other electronics, inoperable for example. This is actually a cornerstone of modern nuclear strategy. You save a few ICBMs for high altitude detonations which are harmless.

It takes a lot of shielding to make a vehicle resistant to EMPs. Enough to where it’s not done routinely even for military vehicles, and it’s effectiveness depends on proximity.

The amount of paranoia in this thread is terrifying.

This is Brexit, not world war three.

Everything.
Is.
Going.
To.
Be.
Fine.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
The amount of paranoia in this thread is terrifying.

This is Brexit, not world war three.

Everything.
Is.
Going.
To.
Be.
Fine.

https://i.imgur.com/lNQNa5a_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
The amount of paranoia in this thread is terrifying.

This is Brexit, not world war three.

Everything.
Is.
Going.
To.
Be.
Fine.

We are no longer discussing prudent preparations for a poor Brexit outcome, but just general planning for major disasters, in this case a large scale nuclear attack. In part because it is a fun thought exercise.

Probably none of us will ever need it. But if a terrorist or something does ever manage to detonate a nuke in the city you are in, maybe these fun hypotheticals could save someone's life. Who knows?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:


https://i.imgur.com/lNQNa5a_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Heh!

 filbert wrote:
I didn't think it was the farming side of things that caused the wastage; I thought most of the wastage came from the supermarkets throwing out perfectly good food that had passed some completely arbitrary 'best before' date?

At least here, most supermarkets are more likely to get in trouble for keeping food around too long. 'Repainting' meat with a chemical to make it look more red (like how raw beef is 'supposed to look') then re-shrink wrapping it and banging a new label on.

A lot of 'best before' dates are anything but arbitrary, especially for meats in what passes for 'refrigerators' in a grocery store display.

Gray Templar wrote:And people talk about how indigenous peoples "used the whole animal" as if we don't do that today.

And notably, the indigenous peoples thing tends to be a myth. The archeological evidence suggests otherwise, sometimes shockingly so. There are a couple canyon sites in the midwest that have layers of buffalo skeletons where the local tribes just drove entire herds off cliffs and salvaged what they could carry from the resulting slurry.

War Drone wrote:For the 1st month, 30x bottles of Vodka and a sawn-off shotgun.

Obviously, I can't get a shotgun, but the Vodka should be doable ...

How things vary. I'm pretty sure I couldn't get 30 bottles of Vodka locally (though give me an hour in car and it's no problem), but can think of _at least_ half a dozen places I could get a shotgun. Without any wait at all, depending on what sort of events are going on. (The radio blurts about a gun show every other week or so)

 cuda1179 wrote:
For added durability you could also pour concrete around it .

If you want your underground extension to be safe you will need to do this. A number of survivalists have bought shipping containers and buried them, then found that unless set in concerete they get crushed by the pressure of earth on their walls.

I would love to add a 8x16 extension under the house, for any purpose, space is at a premium here.