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So now that we've had a while to test out the changes, did the changes do nearly enough to fix the grey knights?

Dunno. Probably not enough. New Beta Bolters might help.

Im curious to know if any GK made LVO, but I haven't gone looking yet.

Not really.

GK is up on stream right now at LVO!

These are the lists.

https://pastebin.com/jttcfR8A



Aaand Voldus charged a knight and died.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Dunno. Probably not enough. New Beta Bolters might help.

Im curious to know if any GK made LVO, but I haven't gone looking yet.

Because of deep strike and interceptors, you already were always rapid firing, so idk if it will help at all.

The problem is that GK units didn't go down in points enough, yet other armys' units did. So even with the points decreases, the overall affect was negligible.
The Bolter Discipline both helps and hurts them. Since every GK has a SB, they get more out of the Beta rule, but it also means their Marine opponents have more shots against them too.
Since GKs are still more expensive than other Marines I'd argue that the Beta Bolter rule hurts them more than helps if fighting other Marines/Chaos Marines

I like others' suggestion that all GKs should have a Psybolt Ammo rule of some sort, rather than being a Stratagem. Maybe instead of both +1S and AP, they have to choose which, kinda like SIA for DW?

-

 Jaxler wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Dunno. Probably not enough. New Beta Bolters might help.

Im curious to know if any GK made LVO, but I haven't gone looking yet.

Because of deep strike and interceptors, you already were always rapid firing, so idk if it will help at all.

Well, it's a matter of them getting full effect from the start. It means you don't necessarily have to be deepstriking. Also, I'm unsure that GOI interrupts beta Bolters since they didn't move in the previous move phase, but I haven't followed up on that argument. It might be dead.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
GK is up on stream right now at LVO!

These are the lists.

https://pastebin.com/jttcfR8A



Aaand Voldus charged a knight and died.

I'm sure the player had a reason to try and charge the Knight. Sometimes desperation happens and you gotta bank on the average.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Dunno. Probably not enough. New Beta Bolters might help.

Im curious to know if any GK made LVO, but I haven't gone looking yet.

Because of deep strike and interceptors, you already were always rapid firing, so idk if it will help at all.

Well, it's a matter of them getting full effect from the start. It means you don't necessarily have to be deepstriking. Also, I'm unsure that GOI interrupts beta Bolters since they didn't move in the previous move phase, but I haven't followed up on that argument. It might be dead.

If you dont deep strike with grey knights, how do you get up the board, and why are you paying for units with force weapons?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
GK is up on stream right now at LVO!

These are the lists.

https://pastebin.com/jttcfR8A



Aaand Voldus charged a knight and died.

I'm sure the player had a reason to try and charge the Knight. Sometimes desperation happens and you gotta bank on the average.

Well the 2++ can help, but he failed Sanc and then failed his charge so he used his reroll already. One hit got through for 6 damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:


If you dont deep strike with grey knights, how do you get up the board, and why are you paying for units with force weapons?

Because you also get storm bolters on every model. I just wish the CP cost of psybolts were cheaper. But, why not both?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
GK is up on stream right now at LVO!

These are the lists.

https://pastebin.com/jttcfR8A



Aaand Voldus charged a knight and died.

I'm sure the player had a reason to try and charge the Knight. Sometimes desperation happens and you gotta bank on the average.

Well the 2++ can help, but he failed Sanc and then failed his charge so he used his reroll already. One hit got through for 6 damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:


If you dont deep strike with grey knights, how do you get up the board, and why are you paying for units with force weapons?

Because you also get storm bolters on every model. I just wish the CP cost of psybolts were cheaper. But, why not both?

OOF that's rough. First To The Fray is the best Warlord Trait for a reason!

My take on it was GK was something like 25% too bad for competitive play. CA brought their prices down something like 20%. And then brought everything else down something like 15%.

Obviously, these numbers aren't exact. Point is, CA points changes for GK would have helped them without making them OP in a vacuum. But other factions also got reductions (but not by as much).

So GK got better by maybe a couple percentage points, closing only a fraction of the gap between where they were and where they'd need to be to be competitive.

So CA did help them, but it doesn't matter.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

OOF that's rough. First To The Fray is the best Warlord Trait for a reason!

It swung back in his favor...two knights down now. Draigo scored 12 wounds in melee on one knight.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

OOF that's rough. First To The Fray is the best Warlord Trait for a reason!

It swung back in his favor...two knights down now. Draigo scored 12 wounds in melee on one knight.

In my experience, the best way to do things is with draigo and 2 grandmasters in baby walkers, a loyal 32 and then some other fun stuff sprinkled in.

Well I guess if your opponents fails all charges and you hit with all wound with all and opponent fails all saves, you wreck face. I wish my GK could do stuff like that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

OOF that's rough. First To The Fray is the best Warlord Trait for a reason!

It swung back in his favor...two knights down now. Draigo scored 12 wounds in melee on one knight.

That's some really good rolling.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

OOF that's rough. First To The Fray is the best Warlord Trait for a reason!

It swung back in his favor...two knights down now. Draigo scored 12 wounds in melee on one knight.

That's some really good rolling.

A bit above average.

5 * .998 * .666 * .833 = about 3 through for 9 damage.

Looks like GK was 21 to 11.

Draigo killed like 3 knights. that is way above my draigos avarge. Poor voldus though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

OOF that's rough. First To The Fray is the best Warlord Trait for a reason!

It swung back in his favor...two knights down now. Draigo scored 12 wounds in melee on one knight.

That's some really good rolling.

A bit above average.

5 * .998 * .666 * .833 = about 3 through for 9 damage.

Looks like GK was 21 to 11.

I'm assuming Hammerhand was cast then, correct?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm assuming Hammerhand was cast then, correct?

You would be correct.

With the beta bolter rules and CA reductions GK have gotten better proportionally to other armies. However, it's like taking an aspirin for a migraine. Sure, it takes the edge off a little, but you still hurt.

So, what I'm getting is they went from a 40/100 to a 55/100.

Your still failing, but it's not as bad as before?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm assuming Hammerhand was cast then, correct?

You would be correct.

Still, slaying THREE Knights is nothing short of impressive. I'm not one for forging the narrative but that's an awesome picture akin to imagining Kharn having at one.

 Jaxler wrote:
So, what I'm getting is they went from a 40/100 to a 55/100.

Your still failing, but it's not as bad as before?

At this point, if you wanted a game to be "fair" in a semi-competitive environment, you'd need to give Grey knights an extra 5-8% in points going up against Necron, 10-12% against most other armies, and 15% against Eldar, Imperial Guard, Deathwatch, or Tau.

If you like GK, you can very well use them now without feeling like a masochist. They are not longer a complete dumpster fire, but still noticeably the worst army in the game. I hope GW has future plans to fix them, like a version 2.0 of the codex.

That should be coming in the next couple of years based on my past experiences. Every time I've given up on an army and traded/sold it off in a little while GW makes them better or gives them some new model(s) or rules to drastically improve them. Last month I dumped my GKs so....

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
That should be coming in the next couple of years based on my past experiences. Every time I've given up on an army and traded/sold it off in a little while GW makes them better or gives them some new model(s) or rules to drastically improve them. Last month I dumped my GKs so....

I'm still wondering if GK will ever get the Primaris treatment. Imagine a version of Reivers with brotherhood of psychers, force weapons, and storm bolters.

GK said no plans to primaris them, honestly would not be surprised if they were planned to be squatted.

 Quickjager wrote:
GK said no plans to primaris them, honestly would not be surprised if they were planned to be squatted.

The no plans to primaris them kinda read that way to me as well