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Orks have 2 lists in the top 50, so they are definitely a top level faction.

Regarding the previous LVO, i would like to point out that pre nerf imps soups would eat the current Castellan soups for breakfast. Try defending it against pre fly nerf captains with unlimited CPs.

 BBAP wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Also would you look at that, a pure Space Marine army in the top 10 without bolter rules active. I guess they aren't as bad as the hundreds of pages of posts on here would have you believe.

Ever has it been thus for the Smurfs. Every Edition the Smurfs will have a build or two that's boring but practical, however most Space Marines players seem to want to run cool characterful stuff instead. The latter fails to impress, so they come to Dakka and make a thread about how Smurfs suck and how the Codex should change to accomodate the units they want to play.

No Orks in the top ten, not a surprise to me but I know it will be to some of you. Almost like they don't have the tools to compete at the top tables, or something given they enjoy some of the best pilots the game has to offer.

Again, no change here. Orks have always been the noobhammer that'll wreck you the first time you play against them, then never beat you again. The last time they were actually competetive was 4th Edition, IIRC.

And finally, look at those poor Orks. Now can people admit they aren't top tier?

History teaches us that the answer is "no". People have been insisting loudly that Orks are a super competetive God-Tier army since 5th Edition without any evidence to support that belief. They won't stop now.

All that said, there's a much wider spread of factions at the top end of the rankings than you used to get. Sure, Ynnari, Guard and Castellans are clearly dominating, but I don't recall a GT top ten having five different factions in it for quite a while. Progress?

Well orc player almost got in top 8, but orc seem to struggle against vs IK.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The GK hero dropped to the 200s with a narrow loss to IG & Smash Captains - no knights.

Where's our Necron legend gone?! :(

58th, which is pretty good for 700ish people.

4th game was narrow loss 27 to 22 to Ynnari. He won his 5th game against Indomitus Crusade.

The Crusade as in the fluffy spend 3 cp on a single unit to make them have an extra attack? Or a RG Castle?

The former CP laden version.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Orks have 2 lists in the top 50, so they are definitely a top level faction.

Regarding the previous LVO, i would like to point out that pre nerf imps soups would eat the current Castellan soups for breakfast. Try defending it against pre fly nerf captains with unlimited CPs.

Orks were major contenders.

Pampreen lost to Weiss' Triple Knight / 2 Basilisk / Hydra by 11.
Nanavanti lost to Harrinson's Ynnari by 1

 grouchoben wrote:
Can someone enlighten me as to the rough build for that 20th place cron list? Dying to know...

That was Thomas Christensson https://i.imgur.com/2w3U3ry.png

Round 1 he annihilated a Ynnari soup list 39-8.
Round 2 he crushed another Ynnari soup, 36-11.
Round 3 he had a close victory against Custodes soup (ft 16x jetbikes) 28-27.
Round 4 he lost to double spear Ynnari 22-27.
Round 5 he crushed a Black Templare brigade w/ soup 33-14.
Round 6 he took down Knight Soup, Castellan + 2x Gallant w/ guard brigade. 33-17.

(info from the necrontyr reddit group)

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Orks were major contenders.

Pampreen lost to Weiss' Triple Knight / 2 Basilisk / Hydra by 11.

It was a damned Emperor's Wrath wasn't it? I've been thinking that we're going to start seeing Hydras make a comeback because of that--not because it makes them actually good, but because that Stratagem just lets them lock down units.

Many thanks Draco765.

 BBAP wrote:


Again, no change here. Orks have always been the noobhammer that'll wreck you the first time you play against them, then never beat you again. The last time they were actually competetive was 4th Edition, IIRC.

Nick and Steve have been running Orks at events since the codex release and they've done considerably well.

You people can't sit here with a straight face and say that an army going 5 and 1 by two people is not competitive at the biggest Warhammer event.

Nick absolutely pounded the Index GSC making rounds in the top 10 (39 to 17).
Lost to *Ynnari* piloted by a skilled player by 1 point (24 to 25).
Pounded an Admech list with Castellan (36 to 13).
Edged out another Ynnari by 2 (25 to 23).
Beat a similar Ork like (36 to 16).
And totally crushed a DG list (42 to 12).

Steve lost to Ynnari by 5, beat triple knight and basilisk by 11, scored 18 and 20 more than other Ork lists, 12 against another Ynnari, and beat out a generic IG list by 18.

You guys are all over Ynnari being in the top, but there is copious evidence of Orks handling them just fine as well as knights. It's a dice game. Sometimes you aren't going to have things go your way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Orks were major contenders.

Pampreen lost to Weiss' Triple Knight / 2 Basilisk / Hydra by 11.

It was a damned Emperor's Wrath wasn't it? I've been thinking that we're going to start seeing Hydras make a comeback because of that--not because it makes them actually good, but because that Stratagem just lets them lock down units.

Doesn't call it out, but I got the round wrong - Steve actually beat that knight list by 11 and then lost round 6 to Ynnari by 5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 admironheart wrote:
Well a couple guys from my area are showing nicely.I think they each have lost only once out of 6 rounds.

So this time last year I read so many articles on the mess that Eldar made of LVO and how the sky was falling. It only took a Big FAQ, some dexes and the Eldar are hated but not the sky falling any more.

This year I do not see anything close to that. I guess the Knight Lists and the loyal 32 are about the only thing even close to that....but it is pale compared to the hate last year.

Any other impressions?

Ynnari just need a kick in the teeth to make them less of a pain in the ass.

The biggest thing people seem to be ignoring is the Chaos Daemons list at #9 with 650 points for summoning.

The man with the summoning list is the true winner of the event. That is without a doubt the hardest list to play. Full respect for him.

Spoletta wrote:
The man with the summoning list is the true winner of the event. That is without a doubt the hardest list to play. Full respect for him.

He got help from the organizers, since they allowed summoning on turn 1.

Marin wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The man with the summoning list is the true winner of the event. That is without a doubt the hardest list to play. Full respect for him.

He got help from the organizers, since they allowed summoning on turn 1.

summoning always was allowed on turn one?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ever has it been thus for the Smurfs. Every Edition the Smurfs will have a build or two that's boring but practical, however most Space Marines players seem to want to run cool characterful stuff instead. The latter fails to impress, so they come to Dakka and make a thread about how Smurfs suck and how the Codex should change to accomodate the units they want to play.

the smurfs, just like black legion, use their amazing charachters to keep competing. That said unlikeBlack legion the smurf trait is usefull.

that does however not really say much about the rest of the SM codex imo.

Actually Not Online!, the smurf list that did so good didn’t even have a pure detachment to benefit from the so usefull trait they get, becuase they included black templar scouts

Straight_Memer wrote:
Actually Not Online!, the smurf list that did so good didn’t even have a pure detachment to benefit from the so usefull trait they get, becuase they included black templar scouts

HUH, now that is surprising.

Marin wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The man with the summoning list is the true winner of the event. That is without a doubt the hardest list to play. Full respect for him.

He got help from the organizers, since they allowed summoning on turn 1.

There's never been a rule preventing summoning turn 1 (in 8e at least).

Tactical Reserves rule only applies to units that were setup somewhere other than the battlefield. Summoned units have never previously been setup before. This is all RAW.

So it is like DP not breaking the rule of 3, as long you dont try to take 4 out of a single codex?

Karol wrote:
So it is like DP not breaking the rule of 3, as long you dont try to take 4 out of a single codex?

Kinda but you have to roll and potentalliy kill off your own charachter instead of just picking up 3 codexes and going around that way.

Seems fairer.

Hopefully death ends up on stream so we can figure out what exactly he is summoning

Karol wrote:
So it is like DP not breaking the rule of 3, as long you dont try to take 4 out of a single codex?

Not really. They simply aren't tactical reserves. It's an entirely separate set of rules.

 Stux wrote:

Marin wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The man with the summoning list is the true winner of the event. That is without a doubt the hardest list to play. Full respect for him.

He got help from the organizers, since they allowed summoning on turn 1.

There's never been a rule preventing summoning turn 1 (in 8e at least).

Tactical Reserves rule only applies to units that were setup somewhere other than the battlefield. Summoned units have never previously been setup before. This is all RAW.

Summoning is reinforcement and the rule is about reinforcement, so its included. There was no need for them to put it in the rules if it was allowed.

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Marin wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The man with the summoning list is the true winner of the event. That is without a doubt the hardest list to play. Full respect for him.

He got help from the organizers, since they allowed summoning on turn 1.

There's never been a rule preventing summoning turn 1 (in 8e at least).

Tactical Reserves rule only applies to units that were setup somewhere other than the battlefield. Summoned units have never previously been setup before. This is all RAW.

Summoning is reinforcement and the rule is about reinforcement, so its included. There was no need for them to put it in the rules if it was allowed.

Wrong the rule doesn't affect reinforcements, it specifically affects "units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game".

The tactical reserve rules (introduced in FAQ 2) state:

"Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

Summoned units are not placed anywhere in order to arrive on the battle mid-game. They are just summoned. You don't even know what you are summoning until you summon it. The unit doesn't exist until you summon it. If the unit doesn't exist how can it be placed anywhere before hand to arrive as reinforcements?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 BBAP wrote:


Again, no change here. Orks have always been the noobhammer that'll wreck you the first time you play against them, then never beat you again. The last time they were actually competetive was 4th Edition, IIRC.

Nick and Steve have been running Orks at events since the codex release and they've done considerably well.

You people can't sit here with a straight face and say that an army going 5 and 1 by two people is not competitive at the biggest Warhammer event.

Yes and its not hard to see why.

We have 2 players in the top 50. That's 4%. Orks make up over 10% of the total players at the event

We have 5 players in the top 100, all apart from the aforementioned 2 are sub 80th place. That's 5% of the top 100. Again, we make up a greater proportion of the player base.

Our win rate is 45% and has 'rocketed' up to 49% if we include only results post codex release.

Orks are not a top tier army as things stand and we're about to get worse relatively with the additions of the beta bolter rule, GSC codex and as we see proper fall out from the changes of CA. We are too reliant on stratagems in a meta that easily counters them, we have poor anti armour and our units are not efficient compared to others. Of course our biggest issue is our inability to soup.

You can't argue with evidence. Steve Pampreen and Nick Nanavati won a few events before the CA changes. They have won one or two events after but people haven't been playing in those as seriously as they do the LVO.

Orks need a buff or we'll be joining GK in their corner of the meta. There are more of almost every faction in the top 100 unless we get super granular and consider specific chapters and things. More Imperium lists, more Chaos lists, more Aeldari lists, more Tau lists and more Nid lists. The only faction who share our low numbers in the top 100 are Necrons. They aren't considered competitive AFAIK?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Straight_Memer wrote:
Actually Not Online!, the smurf list that did so good didn’t even have a pure detachment to benefit from the so usefull trait they get, becuase they included black templar scouts

HUH, now that is surprising.

I'm guessing the templars 4+ deny stratagem was the pull here.

That 7 flyer list is pretty sweet. Never thought something like that could do so well at a major event. Also Sean Nayden's Yncarne list is awesome. I hope we get to see at least one of those lists play on stream today.

Neither list uses reapers and Sean's list only has 8 spears + Eldrad alongside a bunch of non-meta stuff like Yncarne, Maugan Ra, a solitaire, and some death jesters.

 slave.entity wrote:
That 7 flyer list is pretty sweet. Never thought something like that could do so well at a major event. Also Sean Nayden's Yncarne list is awesome. I hope we get to see at least one of those lists play on stream today.

Neither list uses reapers and Sean's list only has 8 spears + Eldrad alongside a bunch of non-meta stuff like Yncarne, Maugan Ra, a solitaire, and some death jesters.

Used to see lists like that with Dark Talons before rule of 3 and their points increases. But yeah, been a while!

Yeah I like how the cliche reapers/spears/wave serpent Ynnari lists didn't make it into the top 8 at all. Instead we have these hipster lists.

Supposedly the 7 flyers are going up against Josh Death's summoning daemons? Should be a fun stream today!

I'm super impressed a Daemons list made it to the top 8.
I know it has some TS allied in but still cool.

Does anyone know what he is exactly using?

I quite enjoyed seeing the Greater Daemon/Primarch list kill some Knights but I don't think it did so well later?

It had (IIRC) Magnus, Mortarian, Lord of Change, Bloodthrister and Fateweaver plus some Bloodletters in the Warp he did not bother to summon.

 dan2026 wrote:
I'm super impressed a Daemons list made it to the top 8.
I know it has some TS allied in but still cool.

Does anyone know what he is exactly using?

Ahriman/DP SC, 30 plaguebearers, 4 nurglings, bilepiper/scrivener, gnarlmaw, 650 summoning points and.... an INFERNAL ENRAPTURESS WARLORD? So good.

 slave.entity wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
I'm super impressed a Daemons list made it to the top 8.
I know it has some TS allied in but still cool.

Does anyone know what he is exactly using?

Ahriman/DP SC, 30 plaguebearers, 4 nurglings, bilepiper/scrivener, gnarlmaw, 650 summoning points and.... an INFERNAL ENRAPTURESS WARLORD? So good.

Now this is cool arse 40k list. A little bit of everything and some bold choices.
I'd love to know this guys strategy. What is he summoning? Why the Gnarlmaw? Why the Enrapturess Warlord?

I always feel that although they have some cool tricks and some very cool models, Daemons are always kinda an underdog army.
So its refreshing to see them do so well.

New bolter rule would do jack all for that SM list. It's all repulsors, predators and gman. I'm glad it's doing well, the other SM list with the vigilus IG detachment did really well too (storm shield biker death ball with GMAN) but I think the SM not running a knight were around cron/ork levels in the top 100 (we'll see once the stats come out).

Like I said other places. Nerf knights, ynarri, doom, dissie cannons, grotesques, guardsmen, maybe ahriman and the princes and the GSC (codex is just too good, at least that stupid vect on steroids, mental op power, hand flamers and the best gunman in the west) while dropping a few more SM primarchs (DA, SW, other vanilla chapters), boost crons a bit and I think we'll have a pretty balanced meta until 9th comes along and breaks it all.

If they want to really get things right the nonperforming units in all the dexes really need a look (primaris, ork vehicles, lots of CWE stuff, crons, all codexes have far too many stinkers) but I think that is beyond GWs capabilities.

[edit] typo

 Mushkilla wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Marin wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The man with the summoning list is the true winner of the event. That is without a doubt the hardest list to play. Full respect for him.

He got help from the organizers, since they allowed summoning on turn 1.

There's never been a rule preventing summoning turn 1 (in 8e at least).

Tactical Reserves rule only applies to units that were setup somewhere other than the battlefield. Summoned units have never previously been setup before. This is all RAW.

Summoning is reinforcement and the rule is about reinforcement, so its included. There was no need for them to put it in the rules if it was allowed.

Wrong the rule doesn't affect reinforcements, it specifically affects "units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game".

The tactical reserve rules (introduced in FAQ 2) state:

"Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

Summoned units are not placed anywhere in order to arrive on the battle mid-game. They are just summoned. You don't even know what you are summoning until you summon it. The unit doesn't exist until you summon it. If the unit doesn't exist how can it be placed anywhere before hand to arrive as reinforcements?

You are playing with words, from the demonic ritual:
This unit is treated as reinforcements for your army

Whatever it exist or don`t exist, its not placed during deployment and is reinforcement according to the daemonic ritual.
Just the LVO guys buffed it so it can be useful and skip most of the tactical reserve rule, but to avoid argument they implicitly typed that forewarned and the SM stratagem work on summoning, so players don`t argue that summoning is not reinforcement.