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They should absolutely be named and shamed. Remember, the only way for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

By protecting them, you're allowing them to continue to do their behavior. Pretty much every single major 40k tournament has had cheating/drama around it. Where do you take a stand and put a stop to it?

Dai wrote:

Karol wrote:
Ok, but from what we are being told here, you can't even put w40k cheaters in US on youtube, because they may just not allow themselfs to be filmed, enhancing the chance of not being caught.

You think "cheaters" should be publically and internarionally named and shamed? Get a grip folks it's a nothing tournament for a nothing hobby. The worst that should happen is a bit of local mockery for being sad enough to do that. Definitely not worth the potential repercussions when you invokethe crazed wrath of nerd culture.

Depends on how much money is involved. They said this about Esports and a lot of those people continued to take drugs even when the prizes hit the millions.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
To be fair, all the people mentioning MTG as a standard, they have rampant cheating, card counting, set decks, and frequent banned players. Just look up MTG cheating on youtube where they video record the cheating for evidence.

I was hoping someone would bring that up. You know what else they have? A pretty good record of dealing with people found to be cheating (not perfect, but nothing ever is). That comes down to 2 things: clear, unequivocal rules and enforceable codes of conduct; and the willingness to enfore those rules and codes of conduct.

I'd also like to take a moment to agree with Wayniac when he says the biggest problem is trying to turn 40k into something it was never designed to be and is really, really not good at, which is a tournament game. When I see the winner at the LVO standing there with a cheque for $4k I wince at the idea of trying to turn 40k into something resembling professional competition.

Dai wrote:

Karol wrote:
Ok, but from what we are being told here, you can't even put w40k cheaters in US on youtube, because they may just not allow themselfs to be filmed, enhancing the chance of not being caught.

You think "cheaters" should be publically and internarionally named and shamed? Get a grip folks it's a nothing tournament for a nothing hobby. The worst that should happen is a bit of local mockery for being sad enough to do that. Definitely not worth the potential repercussions when you invokethe crazed wrath of nerd culture.

yes, because if people see that people at the very top do something they start doing it too. if people see that people at the top tables get off with cheating, they will cheat too. Now if people know that getting caught means everyone even playing other games will know, they will not cheat or they have to get really good at it, people over all cheat less. IMO much better then people being afraid to use the name of a known cheater, or their knowing they have it easier, because the main mechanics of being on video is not going to effect them, because they will just say no.

Get a grip folks it's a nothing tournament for a nothing hobby.

Right now. I hope that when a good e-sports starts working world wide, the game will improve. Right now GW can always use the stupid argument that if their rules are bad people should just rewrite them themselfs. That is like someone selling cars that don't work, tell people that their product is OK, if you fix it yourself.

E-sports is here. EVO has cash prizes in the millions. DOTA teams still get incentive deals in the millions. Before he beat up his girlfriend, Infiltration was the lead Korean gamer, on several titles, routinely pulling in over 2 million in prizes, deals, etc. That's a lot just to play videogames.

But 40k isn't that. No one is willing to pay $40 just to watch people play 40k. No one is paying $100 just to get into the stadium where 40k is being played, just to watch it on a closer screen.

No one is running cash death matches. No one is starting TV shows based around it. 40k twitch is a joke and sucks. There are no charismatic player icons of 40k.

And before someone chimes in with Warhammer TV, please, don't. That is just going to be adds for GW and more boring ass bat reps between the top army and the army made of pinecones and glue.

Miniwargaming had a small thing going, and their lead was somewhat charismatic. However, they recently went behind a paywall. Which is what one does when they want people to see their content.

You know what 40k needs? A Morrocan(Sp?) Football announcer covering games.

"Player sets up his team in teleporter, but wait, he's throwing dice, HES CHARGING, WILL HE MAKE IT? HE DID! CHAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGEEEEE!!!!"

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
E-sports is here. EVO has cash prizes in the millions. DOTA teams still get incentive deals in the millions. Before he beat up his girlfriend, Infiltration was the lead Korean gamer, on several titles, routinely pulling in over 2 million in prizes, deals, etc. That's a lot just to play videogames.

But 40k isn't that. No one is willing to pay $40 just to watch people play 40k. No one is paying $100 just to get into the stadium where 40k is being played, just to watch it on a closer screen.

No one is running cash death matches. No one is starting TV shows based around it. 40k twitch is a joke and sucks. There are no charismatic player icons of 40k.

And before someone chimes in with Warhammer TV, please, don't. That is just going to be adds for GW and more boring ass bat reps between the top army and the army made of pinecones and glue.

Miniwargaming had a small thing going, and their lead was somewhat charismatic. However, they recently went behind a paywall. Which is what one does when they want people to see their content.

You know what 40k needs? A Morrocan(Sp?) Football announcer covering games.

"Player sets up his team in teleporter, but wait, he's throwing dice, HES CHARGING, WILL HE MAKE IT? HE DID! CHAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGEEEEE!!!!"

40K doesn't need to be Starcraft. I can envision no future where Warhammer has sponsorships. It simply is not a game that can translate without strong prior knowledge of the game. Starcraft is at least exciting to watch gak blow up.

Dai wrote:

Karol wrote:
Ok, but from what we are being told here, you can't even put w40k cheaters in US on youtube, because they may just not allow themselfs to be filmed, enhancing the chance of not being caught.

You think "cheaters" should be publically and internarionally named and shamed? Get a grip folks it's a nothing tournament for a nothing hobby. The worst that should happen is a bit of local mockery for being sad enough to do that. Definitely not worth the potential repercussions when you invokethe crazed wrath of nerd culture.

One mans nothing hobby is another mans dream lifestyle. People can like different things for different reasons and yes cheaters should be shut down. If they are willing to cheat at something like this they are willing to cheat at other things too and should not be trusted.

Wayniac wrote:
They should absolutely be named and shamed. Remember, the only way for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

By protecting them, you're allowing them to continue to do their behavior. Pretty much every single major 40k tournament has had cheating/drama around it. Where do you take a stand and put a stop to it?

So your Crusade has moved into the enemies list phase. What are your plans for Dakka since it seems to be a major component of these dramas?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


40K doesn't need to be Starcraft. I can envision no future where Warhammer has sponsorships. It simply is not a game that can translate without strong prior knowledge of the game. Starcraft is at least exciting to watch gak blow up.

40k already has sponsorships. Nick Rose was sponsored, I can't remember which painting company did it. But it was why he took Orks to the LVO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Salt Mine wrote:

Dai wrote:

Karol wrote:
Ok, but from what we are being told here, you can't even put w40k cheaters in US on youtube, because they may just not allow themselfs to be filmed, enhancing the chance of not being caught.

You think "cheaters" should be publically and internarionally named and shamed? Get a grip folks it's a nothing tournament for a nothing hobby. The worst that should happen is a bit of local mockery for being sad enough to do that. Definitely not worth the potential repercussions when you invokethe crazed wrath of nerd culture.

One mans nothing hobby is another mans dream lifestyle. People can like different things for different reasons and yes cheaters should be shut down. If they are willing to cheat at something like this they are willing to cheat at other things too and should not be trusted.

I agree. The question seems to be who gets to decide the punishment, the TO or the internet.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If he was mistaken, fine. What about the previous warnings and "mistakes"? Also, losing your cool about it, while denying your opponent a redo, while demanding one, and then screaming so loud it's picked up on another game's mics, isn't symbolic of a "good player". It's symbolic of a whiney entitled brat who got called on his cheap moves and couldn't handle being told he's wrong.

Have to agree here. If he was being sportsmanlike earlier, I'd have been on his side, but his actions do not reflect well on him.

w1zard wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Don't think of it as sport. That way madness lie. It's not sport. Expecting it to work like sport isn't going to feasible. Or at least if you do prepare to pay like 500 for the tickets.

I mean if 40k isn't meant to be taken that seriously, then maybe there shouldn't be national tournaments or official leagues? Only local tournaments.

If you are going to have a national tournament, you have to do it right... that means adequate amounts of judges, adequate tables, adequate food and facilities. If any one of those cannot be done then the tournament shouldn't even be taking place because it's not feasible.

If the ticket prices need to be 500$ in order to get a decent amount of judges then maybe the ticket prices need to be 500$.

Or maybe you just need to not care so much...Seriously, hundreds of people attend these "national" level events and have a blast on their gaming vacation. So that should be taken away from people because you think it needs to be run like a sport? This is and always will be the disconnect between organizers and the internet pundits who have a prescribed idea about "what the game needs to be"

Most organizers are interested in providing the best experience for the most number of people. Not in creating a esport with refereed matches, or qualifying events. Perhaps if you or others want that you need to create your own "pro" circuit with sponsored players, trained paid judges etc instead of telling people they are having "bad wrong fun" and that events should not exist unless they meet your standards.

OF note - there is no "national" tournament, or official league. There is the ITC, a fan run body that ranks players, and an ITC championship which decides on the champion of the ITC. They could very well design any standards for winning that they choose to, it isn't GW official, nor does it have the money to run a nationwide official tournament league.

FWIW I have no problem on people calling out "cheaters", and if enough people care maybe big events will lose attendance. But that does not seem like something that is important to enough attendees to this point to have made a difference, and until it does I don't see why large events should make any changes beyond catching cheaters when it is brought to their attention. They have far better things to spend money and time on then on making a more competitive environment, and it is the internet that puts so much stock on these events and their best general, not most players in attendance.

Sponsorships and trying to e-sport 40k is part of the issue. Things like Nights at the Game Table (ran by the guy who sponsors Nick Nanvanti) is part of the problem. ITC offering 4k+ in prize money is part of the problem.

Trying to make 40k like starcraft, DOTA, COD is wrong and has no business here, it will ruin the hobby. It's already ruining the hobby. People are treating this like a sport/career and not a hobby. It's missing the entire point of it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
E-sports is here. EVO has cash prizes in the millions. DOTA teams still get incentive deals in the millions. Before he beat up his girlfriend, Infiltration was the lead Korean gamer, on several titles, routinely pulling in over 2 million in prizes, deals, etc. That's a lot just to play videogames.

But 40k isn't that. No one is willing to pay $40 just to watch people play 40k. No one is paying $100 just to get into the stadium where 40k is being played, just to watch it on a closer screen.

No one is running cash death matches. No one is starting TV shows based around it. 40k twitch is a joke and sucks. There are no charismatic player icons of 40k.

And before someone chimes in with Warhammer TV, please, don't. That is just going to be adds for GW and more boring ass bat reps between the top army and the army made of pinecones and glue.

Miniwargaming had a small thing going, and their lead was somewhat charismatic. However, they recently went behind a paywall. Which is what one does when they want people to see their content.

You know what 40k needs? A Morrocan(Sp?) Football announcer covering games.

"Player sets up his team in teleporter, but wait, he's throwing dice, HES CHARGING, WILL HE MAKE IT? HE DID! CHAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGEEEEE!!!!"

40K doesn't need to be Starcraft. I can envision no future where Warhammer has sponsorships. It simply is not a game that can translate without strong prior knowledge of the game. Starcraft is at least exciting to watch gak blow up.

Funny thing - After Blizzard bought out GW, they allowed GW to maintain it's assets and do what it does. But they made SC as a literal rip off of 40k. Think about it. You have Spacemarines, Eldar, and Zerg as factions, Eldar have these "Dragoons" where they take old warriors an put them in battle coffins. Do I need to go on here? Starcraft is 40k in videogame format. They just called it starcraft to get around copyright rules. And because it was all under the same company, no one complained. If you look at Sigmar it has striking resemblance to Warcraft 3....


Not attacking you or anything, I just love how people say 40k doesn't need to be starcraft. Except it is. Blizzard just made it profitable. I mean, actually profitable. It's not even comparable.

Wayniac wrote:
Sponsorships and trying to e-sport 40k is part of the issue. Things like Nights at the Game Table (ran by the guy who sponsors Nick Nanvanti) is part of the problem. ITC offering 4k+ in prize money is part of the problem.

Trying to make 40k like starcraft, DOTA, COD is wrong and has no business here, it will ruin the hobby. It's already ruining the hobby. People are treating this like a sport/career and not a hobby. It's missing the entire point of it.

Please pre-face your opinions as opinions.

The hobby isn't "ruined" by a long stretch. In fact, its healthier now than it ever was before, with more people playing and GW finally getting around to updating their model line with very good looking models.


Having "competitive" 40k does nothing to hurt the hobby except for mabey making some people feel disconnected from some other players who are interested in being competitive. At the end of the day, it is a hobby and you make of it what you want to make out of it. You don't have to attend tournaments, and even if you do, you don't have to try to win them to feel validated or even have fun. Play the game how you want. Don't try to make others play how you want.

Many people do want competitive 40k.

I mean, we've always had both cheaters and obnoxious manipulative rules lawyers in the hobby, "e"-sports or not. I don't mind people who play it as a sport, as long as they aren't donkey-caves about it.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Funny thing - After Blizzard bought out GW

Uh ? Is this some vision of the future ?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Funny thing - After Blizzard bought out GW, they allowed GW to maintain it's assets and do what it does. But they made SC as a literal rip off of 40k. Think about it. You have Spacemarines, Eldar, and Zerg as factions, Eldar have these "Dragoons" where they take old warriors an put them in battle coffins. Do I need to go on here? Starcraft is 40k in videogame format. They just called it starcraft to get around copyright rules. And because it was all under the same company, no one complained. If you look at Sigmar it has striking resemblance to Warcraft 3....


Not attacking you or anything, I just love how people say 40k doesn't need to be starcraft. Except it is. Blizzard just made it profitable. I mean, actually profitable. It's not even comparable.

Oh I'm aware of the history. There's just a huge gap between action on a table over 2.5 to 3 hours and a 30 minute SC match.

dhallnet wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Funny thing - After Blizzard bought out GW

Uh? Is this some vision of the future ?

I'm also confused, given that at no point did Blizzard ever own Games Workshop in any form whatsoever. Do they mean paid off rather than bought out? But I don't think there was ever a lawsuit or settlement over anything between the two.

 Eihnlazer wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Sponsorships and trying to e-sport 40k is part of the issue. Things like Nights at the Game Table (ran by the guy who sponsors Nick Nanvanti) is part of the problem. ITC offering 4k+ in prize money is part of the problem.

Trying to make 40k like starcraft, DOTA, COD is wrong and has no business here, it will ruin the hobby. It's already ruining the hobby. People are treating this like a sport/career and not a hobby. It's missing the entire point of it.

Please pre-face your opinions as opinions.

The hobby isn't "ruined" by a long stretch. In fact, its healthier now than it ever was before, with more people playing and GW finally getting around to updating their model line with very good looking models.


Having "competitive" 40k does nothing to hurt the hobby except for mabey making some people feel disconnected from some other players who are interested in being competitive. At the end of the day, it is a hobby and you make of it what you want to make out of it. You don't have to attend tournaments, and even if you do, you don't have to try to win them to feel validated or even have fun. Play the game how you want. Don't try to make others play how you want.

Many people do want competitive 40k.

Which is fine, and the hobby is far from ruined, until those people beat the drum until they price the casual tournament goer out of attending, that will be what really hurts the hobby. Those big events are what a lot of people love about the hobby, and to have people frequently parrot "well if x cannot happen, maybe y tournament should not exist" is a toxic mindset.

Blizzard and GW joined up to make Warhammer as a computer game, but they split before it was finished. Blizzard decided to keep going ahead anyway and changed a few things and made Warcraft 1.

Thereafter they mostly split however Stacraft was Warcraft in Space pretty much like 40K was Fantasy in space. It's also rather clear that they sort of pinched ideas from each other all the time.

Heck the first generation of Raveners looked VERY much like Hydralisks (and one can argue that with the thorax mounted weapon the current generation ones have they are even closer to a similar style of model).


That said when it comes to profit whilst Starcraft makes a lot, it makes nothing like as much as World of Warcraft. SC2 also makes a load off their competitive scene; but Bliz were somewhat lucky in that they wound up with S.Korea basically addicted to original Starcraft for many years.

 Melissia wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Funny thing - After Blizzard bought out GW

Uh? Is this some vision of the future ?

I'm also confused, given that at no point did Blizzard ever own Games Workshop in any form whatsoever. Do they mean paid off rather than bought out? But I don't think there was ever a lawsuit or settlement over anything between the two.

There is some fantasy about how Blizzard would have asked GW to make a licensed game but was refused and thus made Warcraft. But I never saw any kind of proof of that. And warcraft is quite removed from warhammer imho ("they both have orks !!").
Did blizzard get inspired by 40K races when designing starcraft though ? Maybe.

But anyway, starcraft & 40k don't share anything at all from a game point of view, outside of blowing stuff up. Nor do they share the same goals. One is a vessel to sell more stuff, the other was "just" a game (SC2 is a bit more than "just a game" though).

Undoubtedly inspired, but at the same time, GW wasn't THAT creative; Tyranids were based on Starship Troopers and the Aliens franchise, IIRC.

If you think that's a ripoff, you should see how much the LOTR movies ripped off D&D!

 Melissia wrote:
Undoubtedly inspired, but at the same time, GW wasn't THAT creative; Tyranids were based on Starship Troopers and the Aliens franchise, IIRC.

Everything is a Remix

https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
E-sports is here. EVO has cash prizes in the millions.

In Versus Fighting, not really no. ProblemX (last EVO champ in SFV) gained ~41k$.

Not to dismiss your other arguments, but following closely the versus fighting scene, there is far less money than other esport games.
source : https://www.esportsearnings.com/events/5751-evo-2018

I think the analogy between 40k and esports is flawed.


Many of us would like 40k to play like a clean esport game. Unfortunately, in reality, esport games all have their own endless cyclical balance issues and 40k was never meant to be that and isn't built to support it.

More to the point, tabletop games just doesn't work the same way. Games take too long for most people to have fun watching or play fast enough for a real mass audience televised/streamed event, there's way too much imagery left to the imagination for the audience, way too much randomness, you cant record data the same way or with as many data points, the variations and factions are far more variable and expansive, it requires far more setup and preparation, and entails a significantly higher expense to get into beyond just "buy the game for $60".

We need to accept that competitive 40k is not going to be an esport, and fundamentally is a very poor platform for a competitive tournament game, and that tournaments are always going to involve a significant element of "who is best at breaking the game".

That is not to say that people shouldnt run tournaments or take valuable lessons from them or esports, but lets acknowledge 40k for what it is. It is not, and probably never will be, a serious competitive game in the vein of an esport or Magic.

I think the game is too complicated to catch everything or rules. The best thing you can do is catch trends and then punish the people who trend.

People make mistakes. For example, at SoCal I played Kenny (Long War) and used overrun incorrectly (didn't get enough practice and did'nt take a competitive army.

I didn't realize it till the stream pointed it out. One of the casters, comes over to the table and tells me about it. I stop the game and explain to Kenny and go. What do you want to do? I can forfeit; I made a mistake. Kenny graciously said, let it go on.

But what happens. I made a mistake and now people are banned forever? I think LVO code of conduct goes down the right path for this. This game has too many inconsistent rules, and too many interpretations though to make it a tight game where you could have rules interactions. It really does need a stack mechanic for example like magic did.

In the end I agree with what Vaktathi is saying. That said, can GW get 40k there to an esport? Sure, maybe? but its going to be a rough start till some of these big things are addressed.

Darkwynn wrote:
I think the game is too complicated to catch everything or rules. The best thing you can do is catch trends and then punish the people who trend.

People make mistakes.

At the same time, the guy involved was being a dick to his opponent and a hypocrite regarding his own mistakes. He had denied his opponent a redo, but expected one for himself, and loudly lost his temper over it to the point of it disrupting other nearby games. There's a difference between making a mistake, and being a self-centered jerk.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think the analogy between 40k and esports is flawed.


Many of us would like 40k to play like a clean esport game. Unfortunately, in reality, esport games all have their own endless cyclical balance issues and 40k was never meant to be that and isn't built to support it.

More to the point, tabletop games just doesn't work the same way. Games take too long for most people to have fun watching or play fast enough for a real mass audience televised/streamed event, there's way too much imagery left to the imagination for the audience, way too much randomness, you cant record data the same way or with as many data points, the variations and factions are far more variable and expansive, it requires far more setup and preparation, and entails a significantly higher expense to get into beyond just "buy the game for $60".

We need to accept that competitive 40k is not going to be an esport, and fundamentally is a very poor platform for a competitive tournament game, and that tournaments are always going to involve a significant element of "who is best at breaking the game".

That is not to say that people shouldnt run tournaments or take valuable lessons from them or esports, but lets acknowledge 40k for what it is. It is not, and probably never will be, a serious competitive game in the vein of an esport or Magic.

Announcer 1: That's right Jim! Nick has been rolling average his entire career! He's batting a full 500 on his 4+ rolls.
Announcer 2: Amazing! Let's see if he can pull off this morale test!
Announcer 1: A 5! THE CROWD GOES WILD! NICK HAS DONE IT AGAIN FOLKS! ANOTHER 4+ IN THE BAG!

Wayniac wrote:
They should absolutely be named and shamed. Remember, the only way for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

By protecting them, you're allowing them to continue to do their behavior. Pretty much every single major 40k tournament has had cheating/drama around it. Where do you take a stand and put a stop to it?

The problem with stigmatizing people is that it doesn't stop the behavior in question, all it does it make people hide it better. This has been proven across numerous peer-reviewed scientific studies.

If you want to stop a behavior you have to make it difficult to do the behavior and get away with it. Being ultra-hard on people that you do manage to catch in order to serve "as an example" does almost nothing for deterrence. It also really, REALLY sucks for innocent people that happen to be falsely accused.

Let me give an example: People speeding along freeways is an issue. Which method do you think will stop people from speeding the most?

A. Exactly one person per day, somewhere in the country is caught speeding and put to death in front of a firing squad.

B. There are enough police around that there is a 75+% chance you will get caught if you speed and given a 300$ fine.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think the analogy between 40k and esports is flawed.


Many of us would like 40k to play like a clean esport game. Unfortunately, in reality, esport games all have their own endless cyclical balance issues and 40k was never meant to be that and isn't built to support it.

More to the point, tabletop games just doesn't work the same way. Games take too long for most people to have fun watching or play fast enough for a real mass audience televised/streamed event, there's way too much imagery left to the imagination for the audience, way too much randomness, you cant record data the same way or with as many data points, the variations and factions are far more variable and expansive, it requires far more setup and preparation, and entails a significantly higher expense to get into beyond just "buy the game for $60".

We need to accept that competitive 40k is not going to be an esport, and fundamentally is a very poor platform for a competitive tournament game, and that tournaments are always going to involve a significant element of "who is best at breaking the game".

That is not to say that people shouldnt run tournaments or take valuable lessons from them or esports, but lets acknowledge 40k for what it is. It is not, and probably never will be, a serious competitive game in the vein of an esport or Magic.

Announcer 1: That's right Jim! Nick has been rolling average his entire career! He's batting a full 500 on his 4+ rolls.
Announcer 2: Amazing! Let's see if he can pull off this morale test!
Announcer 1: A 5! THE CROWD GOES WILD! NICK HAS DONE IT AGAIN FOLKS! ANOTHER 4+ IN THE BAG!

I think you meant to quote me.