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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think the analogy between 40k and esports is flawed.


Many of us would like 40k to play like a clean esport game. Unfortunately, in reality, esport games all have their own endless cyclical balance issues and 40k was never meant to be that and isn't built to support it.

More to the point, tabletop games just doesn't work the same way. Games take too long for most people to have fun watching or play fast enough for a real mass audience televised/streamed event, there's way too much imagery left to the imagination for the audience, way too much randomness, you cant record data the same way or with as many data points, the variations and factions are far more variable and expansive, it requires far more setup and preparation, and entails a significantly higher expense to get into beyond just "buy the game for $60".

We need to accept that competitive 40k is not going to be an esport, and fundamentally is a very poor platform for a competitive tournament game, and that tournaments are always going to involve a significant element of "who is best at breaking the game".

That is not to say that people shouldnt run tournaments or take valuable lessons from them or esports, but lets acknowledge 40k for what it is. It is not, and probably never will be, a serious competitive game in the vein of an esport or Magic.

Announcer 1: That's right Jim! Nick has been rolling average his entire career! He's batting a full 500 on his 4+ rolls.
Announcer 2: Amazing! Let's see if he can pull off this morale test!
Announcer 1: A 5! THE CROWD GOES WILD! NICK HAS DONE IT AGAIN FOLKS! ANOTHER 4+ IN THE BAG!

Needs WWE style color commentary.

Bah gawd king! This game is a real slobberknocker!

I think the firing squad and your numbers make that a tough call. Death is a pretty big deterrent for a lot of people, but the general idea that more policing is more effective in lowering speeds. For instance if you really wanted to curb speeding, equip all cars with GPS, and calculate fines based on the GPS speed results.

The problem with that when it comes to 40k is that it simply is not feasible to be option B in that example. There are rarely enough judges available to watch every second of every match, even fewer who would know every rule to catch any mistake. People in the hobby in general would much rather play in events than judge events, so incentives would need to be offered to get people to judge and those incentives simply aren't available in most cases.

Prior to having kids I used to TO local events and even a small GT. But at that time i could play all the time. If you asked me to TO now I would turn you down, I have limited time to play and when I can get that time away I want to enjoy my hobby not be an official. This is even more true at larger events. People traveling to those events want to partake in the event not be a judge. Occasionally in cases where it is not a weekend long tournament people will work one event if say admission to the convention is comped, and then play in others, but that doesn't work for things like the LVO championships.

I do find it kind of odd that the Las Vegas Open did not deal with cheaters "Vegas Style".
Having been …. interviewed... by casino security, I can tell you it can be intimidating.
For the record, I was not cheating, I was too drunk to card count.

Breng77 wrote:
I think the firing squad and your numbers make that a tough call. Death is a pretty big deterrent for a lot of people

And exactly ONE person per day in the entire country dies from it out of how many that speed?

Statistically, you take a bigger risk of dying in a car crash every day when you drive to work than to be that one unlucky person. That isn't going to stop anyone from speeding, it will just make them deny it to the moon and back if accused of it.

Also, the death penalty doesn't deter anyone, also scientifically proven in peer-reviewed studies. When California abolished the death penalty in the 1970s the murder rates didn't change at all. When the death penalty was re-instituted in the early 1990s the murder rate once again didn't change at all.

Believe it or not I am actually for Capital punishment, but to say that it has a "deterrence effect" is scientifically incorrect.

 helgrenze wrote:
I do find it kind of odd that the Las Vegas Open did not deal with cheaters "Vegas Style".
Having been …. interviewed... by casino security, I can tell you it can be intimidating.
For the record, I was not cheating, I was too drunk to card count.

By the way, card counting isn't cheating, and isn't illegal. Casinos can still technically throw you out for it though because it is private property and they can do whatever the feth they want, but it is not "cheating" in any sense of the word.

w1zard wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I think the firing squad and your numbers make that a tough call. Death is a pretty big deterrent for a lot of people

And exactly ONE person per day in the entire country dies from it out of how many that speed?

Statistically, you take a bigger risk of dying in a car crash every day when you drive to work than to be that one unlucky person. That isn't going to stop anyone from speeding, it will just make them deny it to the moon and back if accused of it.

Also, the death penalty doesn't deter anyone, also scientifically proven in peer-reviewed studies. When California abolished the death penalty in the 1970s the murder rates didn't change at all. When the death penalty was re-instituted in the early 1990s the murder rate once again didn't change at all.

Believe it or not I am actually for Capital punishment, but to say that it has a "deterrence effect" is scientifically incorrect.

 helgrenze wrote:
I do find it kind of odd that the Las Vegas Open did not deal with cheaters "Vegas Style".
Having been …. interviewed... by casino security, I can tell you it can be intimidating.
For the record, I was not cheating, I was too drunk to card count.

By the way, card counting isn't cheating, and isn't illegal. Casinos can still technically throw you out for it though because it is private property and they can do whatever the feth they want, but it is not "cheating" in any sense of the word.

Can we stop with the defenses on this forum of cheating?

1. It's mistakes (begging the question)
2. The ref didn't call it (Shifting the blame)
3. Everyone is doing it (Shifting the blame)
4. It's on the opponent to call it out (Victim blaming)
5. The rules are too complicated! (Strawman)


AND NOW - CARD COUNTING IS NOT ILLEGAL. IT ISN'T CHEATING. Okay, there is no rule against it at a casino. But at a MTG table, it's considered cheating and here's why. It's evidence of deck stacking.

Just stop. If you (Royal you) need to cheat to win a stupid game, you (Royal again) are a pathetic person.

Fezzik.... tear his arms off.

w1zard wrote:
Let me give an example: People speeding along freeways is an issue. Which method do you think will stop people from speeding the most?

A. Exactly one person per day, somewhere in the country is caught speeding and put to death in front of a firing squad.

B. There are enough police around that there is a 75+% chance you will get caught if you speed and given a 300$ fine.

Death, of course. You can ignore a $300 fine, the chance of execution by firing squad if you're the unlucky person is a lot more of a deterrent. The reason people speed is that the chance of getting caught is negligible and the fine is even less significant. So you just drive 10+ mph over the "limit" all the time and pay a $300 tax every few years as the price of owning a car. Or, to translate to 40k terms, people will cheat when they're unlikely to get caught and even if they are the worst that will happen is they get a game loss in an event and people rush to defend them over how it was obviously a mistake. People will be much less likely to cheat if getting caught cheating means a permanent ban from 40k and never getting to play again.

 Peregrine wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Let me give an example: People speeding along freeways is an issue. Which method do you think will stop people from speeding the most?

A. Exactly one person per day, somewhere in the country is caught speeding and put to death in front of a firing squad.

B. There are enough police around that there is a 75+% chance you will get caught if you speed and given a 300$ fine.

Death, of course. You can ignore a $300 fine, the chance of execution by firing squad if you're the unlucky person is a lot more of a deterrent. The reason people speed is that the chance of getting caught is negligible and the fine is even less significant. So you just drive 10+ mph over the "limit" all the time and pay a $300 tax every few years as the price of owning a car. Or, to translate to 40k terms, people will cheat when they're unlikely to get caught and even if they are the worst that will happen is they get a game loss in an event and people rush to defend them over how it was obviously a mistake. People will be much less likely to cheat if getting caught cheating means a permanent ban from 40k and never getting to play again.

The above needs a combination of the two. Putting aside that a lot of people can't deal with a 300 dollar fine, it comes down to getting caught. Whether the punishment is a dollar or death, if I don't feel like i'm going to be caught or if the reward for cheating is worth the risk, people will be tempted.

The main issue with 40k is there isn't really a central database like we have for actual crimes.

Some really dumb suggestions here. LVO has come and gone and it wasnt that bad that you need that many changes as some are hinting at. There is a handful of suspect players, you only need a couple extra volunteers to keep an eye on their match.

What BCP could do is allow for suspect players to be marked and the tables they play on could be grouped in an area where a couple judges can be on standby.

There will be those who will push the rules as far as they can, even out right cheat, if any/all the following are met...

1. If the prize is considerably more that covering the cost of getting to the event.
2. If the event is part of a series
3. If the series of events pay prize money exceeding a few quid for covering travel, food and accommodation.

With a lack of governing body, there is little that can be done beyond a day to day / event by event eye on alleged and accused cheats. At the moment, there is a rule set (or two) used by several events, sometimes changed to suit each event, the TO and judges are not directly connected with those writing the rules. The next events in a series could use different modified rules, and the slate is wiped clean for many cheats.

IF a governing body was set up, they would have to set and update rules, train and authorise judges, keep a list of top players, including wins/loses and rules infringements by them. They would also accredit each event in a series. This is how nearly all 'sports' do it, some you can not take part in for longer than a couple of weeks until you are registered with the governing body.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we stop with the defenses on this forum of cheating?

I fail to see how pointing out that lifetime banning people to set an example isn't going to solve the cheating problem is "defending cheating".

 Peregrine wrote:
Death, of course. You can ignore a $300 fine, the chance of execution by firing squad if you're the unlucky person is a lot more of a deterrent. The reason people speed is that the chance of getting caught is negligible and the fine is even less significant. So you just drive 10+ mph over the "limit" all the time and pay a $300 tax every few years as the price of owning a car. Or, to translate to 40k terms, people will cheat when they're unlikely to get caught and even if they are the worst that will happen is they get a game loss in an event and people rush to defend them over how it was obviously a mistake. People will be much less likely to cheat if getting caught cheating means a permanent ban from 40k and never getting to play again.

Do you even read?

What part of 75+% chance of getting caught and a $300 dollar fine don't you understand?

Deterrence is more efficiently caused by certainty of getting caught, rather than harsh punishments for being caught.

You could make the punishment for every crime death and all you would get is a bunch of dead people, and active criminals who are REALLY good at hiding what they do. You want to stop cheating in 40k? Put a referee at every table to make it that much harder to cheat. But lifetime banning someone for bumping a model or forgetting a rule at a tournament (which may or may not have been intentional) will do nothing to deter active cheaters whilst being unjust toward people who make genuine mistakes.

Deterrents only work on people who are unlikely to break the rule in the first place. Prisons are filled with people who thought they could get away with it or didn't think about it at all.

A couple of thoughts from someone who has helped run larger (100+ player) MTG events - though from the position of data input, not Judge.

- The big thing that MTG has going for it as a game to make judging easy is the comprehensive rules document. It is not a small document (the current PDF weighs in at 225 pages), but it spells out as clearly as possible anything you need to deal with any rules interaction. GW rules are not written this clearly, and they'd need a technical writer on staff to produce anything similar. Equally, you're not meant to try to use the CRD to actually play an average game, merely look up a specific interaction.

- MTG Judges wander the floor during a round (as well as doing deck and decklist checks), and can throw warnings out for things they spot in passing. As a general rule, these don't really have an effect during an event. I'm not sure if these warnings are looked at at a higher level.

- A game loss in MTG is not the same as a game loss in 40k. The equivalent there would be a match loss, which is used for larger offences. As I'm not a judge, and it has been a little while since I helped with an event, I can't remember what falls into each category.

- Before you can be an official judge, you need to pass a written exam. For you to judge at larger events, such as a Pro Tour, you have to achieve a higher judge level. THis is to help with standardisation of interpretation and enforcement, so there should be little disagreement between judges of how something should be judged. Without a CRD, I'm not sure if you could implement this sort of evaluation into 40k, due to how wooly the wording is.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Deterrents only work on people who are unlikely to break the rule in the first place. Prisons are filled with people who thought they could get away with it or didn't think about it at all.

good, you shouldn't want people that don't think playing w40k or who think they can get away with something. A strickt set of rules always helps, there is a ton of people who don't cheat, but if they see people play lets say with intent and not with RAW rules at the top tables, they may think it is ok for them to do that too. If the same players know that playing like that will bring consequences both in game and for their tournament placing, they will just not do it, because it is not worth it.

I wait, what?!?
What has capital punishment to do with any off this? '? As deterence?

That's one of the worst analogies I've ever read.

The argument is that a higher likelihood of being caught committing an offence is more of a deterrent to offending than high penalties with a negligible rate of convictions. Something that is I think observable even without postulating the death penalty for speeding. In the UK there are several motoring offenses ("moving violations", I believe?) that can result in removal of your right to drive. That includes egregious and/or repeated speeding, using a mobile phone while driving, crashing into someone (I got 3 points for "driving without due care and attention"; 12 points is a driving ban) or even not driving in the left lane (furthest from the median for the foreigners) when it's free. They're routinely flouted because there's hardly any traffic cops about. The exception is speeding through areas with speed cameras, because you're more likely to get caught.

There's no point saying you'll get a lifetime ban and years of abuse from the online peanut gallery for forgetting a rule buried in an errata document, but only having one judge in an event of 200 games, because you'll likely not get caught.

w1zard wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I think the firing squad and your numbers make that a tough call. Death is a pretty big deterrent for a lot of people

And exactly ONE person per day in the entire country dies from it out of how many that speed?

Statistically, you take a bigger risk of dying in a car crash every day when you drive to work than to be that one unlucky person. That isn't going to stop anyone from speeding, it will just make them deny it to the moon and back if accused of it.

Also, the death penalty doesn't deter anyone, also scientifically proven in peer-reviewed studies. When California abolished the death penalty in the 1970s the murder rates didn't change at all. When the death penalty was re-instituted in the early 1990s the murder rate once again didn't change at all.

Believe it or not I am actually for Capital punishment, but to say that it has a "deterrence effect" is scientifically incorrect .

I am against capital punishment but to say it has no deference effect is incorrect. The issue is it does not deter the things it gets used for. If death was the penalty for speeding, as currently policed (not one person per day). Very few people would speed. The entire thing is a risk reward problem. If it was only ever one person per day then maybe people still speed, but I’d say 30% get caught and killed. People would be deterred more so than a fine at say 60% of people. One issue economically with fines is that they only deter some people. If i’m Jeff Bezos I don’t care about the $300. So you are correct in saying the chance of getting caught is what matters most, but how high that rate of catching needs to be to deter people is dependent on the consequence. So in the case of cheating if the punishment is harsh your catch rate can be lower.

I don't know how we got so of track, but I think my original question has been answered. We all care about cheating in 40k, but because there is no clear path forward for dealing with the issue, and the governing body doesn't see profit in it, it will never change.

 Dysartes wrote:
A couple of thoughts from someone who has helped run larger (100+ player) MTG events - though from the position of data input, not Judge.

- The big thing that MTG has going for it as a game to make judging easy is the comprehensive rules document. It is not a small document (the current PDF weighs in at 225 pages), but it spells out as clearly as possible anything you need to deal with any rules interaction. GW rules are not written this clearly, and they'd need a technical writer on staff to produce anything similar. Equally, you're not meant to try to use the CRD to actually play an average game, merely look up a specific interaction.

- MTG Judges wander the floor during a round (as well as doing deck and decklist checks), and can throw warnings out for things they spot in passing. As a general rule, these don't really have an effect during an event. I'm not sure if these warnings are looked at at a higher level.

- A game loss in MTG is not the same as a game loss in 40k. The equivalent there would be a match loss, which is used for larger offences. As I'm not a judge, and it has been a little while since I helped with an event, I can't remember what falls into each category.

- Before you can be an official judge, you need to pass a written exam. For you to judge at larger events, such as a Pro Tour, you have to achieve a higher judge level. THis is to help with standardisation of interpretation and enforcement, so there should be little disagreement between judges of how something should be judged. Without a CRD, I'm not sure if you could implement this sort of evaluation into 40k, due to how wooly the wording is.

They have a CRD because someone sat down and wrote one.
There are more than 50 people credited with the creation of that document, mainly due to the sheer number of auxiliary rules that came with each new iteration of that game. The rules interactions in MtG are much more complex than in 40k, depending on which type of game you are playing, which editions, and which of the 30+ sets are being used.
While the basic rules do not change, the rule interactions between sets does, thus creating a need for a CRD.

40k basic rules also do not change, and the rules interactions tend to be fairly simple. The Dataslates were created to help players 'remember' the rules for their armies (afaik) by making them easier to access. The FAQ and Eratta deal with interactions they didn't realize was an issue at first.

However if someone Wants a CRD for 40k, maybe they should start collecting and collating all the required data?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't know how we got so of track, but I think my original question has been answered. We all care about cheating in 40k, but because there is no clear path forward for dealing with the issue, and the governing body doesn't see profit in it, it will never change.

I care about being cheated, but feel it is incumbent upon myself to not get cheated. I think the external expectation of someone else to catch the cheaters and deal with them is why there is no solution. If players were better at questioning rules they find off, or more knowledgeable ability it the rules it would be the most likely thing to cause improvement. As was stated the likelyhood of being caught is the biggest deterrent. So if players routinely held their opponents accountable to playing by the rules, and judges dealt with disagreements and egregious violations, that would be the best solution overall. The expectation of players that someone else should call out their opponent is the largest reason. As is the faulty expectation that your opponent knows their rules better than you do.

Odd question: to anyone who has participated in a 40k Major,

After your army list is "approved" and deemed legal, and you head off to your table, what is stopping someone from altering the list? Are they stamped in some format? What is the policing of lists like, and how are they scrutinized?

The reason I ask is some of the sites I am reading say the ref's reviewing the lists don't always do their diligence.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Odd question: to anyone who has participated in a 40k Major,

After your army list is "approved" and deemed legal, and you head off to your table, what is stopping someone from altering the list? Are they stamped in some format? What is the policing of lists like, and how are they scrutinized?

The reason I ask is some of the sites I am reading say the ref's reviewing the lists don't always do their diligence.

Typically you share a copy of your list with the other player. You bring enough so they can keep a copy (or I take a picture).

In my experience there is no check to verify that you brought what you told the organizers you were going to bring, which usually isn't a big deal as long as it's a legal list.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Odd question: to anyone who has participated in a 40k Major,

After your army list is "approved" and deemed legal, and you head off to your table, what is stopping someone from altering the list? Are they stamped in some format? What is the policing of lists like, and how are they scrutinized?

The reason I ask is some of the sites I am reading say the ref's reviewing the lists don't always do their diligence.

Generally, the lists are all on BCP or some other system (Down Under Pairings, google drive doc etc). But yes, generally, it's also considered "good practice" to share a copy of your list with your opponent and then run through it and answer any questions.

That said, i guess someone could potentially upload a new list onto BCP halfway through an event (never tried it so don't know if it is possible...) Then, in that case it'd be super hard to catch, unless you'd looked over all the lists before hand and had your own copies.

Right, my point is, if you were to suddently make minute changes in a list, 9 guardsman become 8 in each squad, or 6 SMs become 5, thats a big points difference. Suddenly there is an extra X unit, and it's a legal list.

It seems more and more like there is less and less oversight, and what is there is completely inept and uncaring.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, my point is, if you were to suddently make minute changes in a list, 9 guardsman become 8 in each squad, or 6 SMs become 5, thats a big points difference. Suddenly there is an extra X unit, and it's a legal list.

It seems more and more like there is less and less oversight, and what is there is completely inept and uncaring.

No - I think you're missing how difficult all that is.

What stops them from changing their list the next round? And the next? And the next? It's literally not possible.

The real solution is people here need to stop acting like there is some seedy underbelly of Warhammer, accept that people are mostly good, but they also make mistakes.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, my point is, if you were to suddently make minute changes in a list, 9 guardsman become 8 in each squad, or 6 SMs become 5, thats a big points difference. Suddenly there is an extra X unit, and it's a legal list.

It seems more and more like there is less and less oversight, and what is there is completely inept and uncaring.

There is no check because its utterly impractical do so. You can't go and check every players list being the same from what they entered at the start of the tournament during every round after they deployed.

LVO locked lists after they resolved submission issues and I used the BCP format as my reference for my opponent's list. Certainly an approach larger events can look at as it creates a locked reference point.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Odd question: to anyone who has participated in a 40k Major,

After your army list is "approved" and deemed legal, and you head off to your table, what is stopping someone from altering the list? Are they stamped in some format? What is the policing of lists like, and how are they scrutinized?

The reason I ask is some of the sites I am reading say the ref's reviewing the lists don't always do their diligence.

Typically we go through our lists before the game starts.

The lists are available in BCP and you can have that open and follow along. It doesn't take long to read a list and then verify it.

The tricky part is wargear. Because so much is optional, it's easy for people to claim they have upgrades they didn't pay for. For example, Team Happy using a Plasma Pistol they didn't pay for, because it was on the model. This is also why most events enforce WYSIWYG.

At the end of the day 40k depends on a social contract - you're not going to cheat me, and i'm not going to cheat you.

There is a reason Team Happy does consistently well and they're also renowned cheaters. People wouldn't cheat if it didn't work. Although it's been my experience that people cheat not by claiming to have extra things or fuddling around with their lists, but by bending or lying about rules.

I think a lot of the discussion in this thread has been focused on the wrong issue. I'm aware that in a game as complex as 40k, it's tough to know every rule, and that makes it hard to catch people cheating. My issue is why are people who are known to be cheaters with multiple repeat incidents still allowed to compete?

 EnTyme wrote:
I think a lot of the discussion in this thread has been focused on the wrong issue. I'm aware that in a game as complex as 40k, it's tough to know every rule, and that makes it hard to catch people cheating. My issue is why are people who are known to be cheaters with multiple repeat incidents still allowed to compete?

Because tournaments are separate events led by separate people without any form of overarching body.