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 EnTyme wrote:
I think a lot of the discussion in this thread has been focused on the wrong issue. I'm aware that in a game as complex as 40k, it's tough to know every rule, and that makes it hard to catch people cheating. My issue is why are people who are known to be cheaters with multiple repeat incidents still allowed to compete?

Because it's incredibly difficult to prove cheating.

Ultimately it's a he-said-she-said when you involve a judge. A cheater can simply say, "that's not true i didn't do that." What do you do then? Labeling the truth as fake news has proven to be successful in many areas.

 Marmatag wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I think a lot of the discussion in this thread has been focused on the wrong issue. I'm aware that in a game as complex as 40k, it's tough to know every rule, and that makes it hard to catch people cheating. My issue is why are people who are known to be cheaters with multiple repeat incidents still allowed to compete?

Because it's incredibly difficult to prove cheating.

Ultimately it's a he-said-she-said when you involve a judge. A cheater can simply say, "that's not true i didn't do that." What do you do then? Labeling the truth as fake news has proven to be successful in many areas.

"it's not true, I did not hit her, it is boolshet, I did naaaht" could be the unofficial catchphrase of the last few years.

 EnTyme wrote:
I think a lot of the discussion in this thread has been focused on the wrong issue. I'm aware that in a game as complex as 40k, it's tough to know every rule, and that makes it hard to catch people cheating. My issue is why are people who are known to be cheaters with multiple repeat incidents still allowed to compete?

You should actually listen to the FLG podcasts as they covered this exact thing not only last podcast but in every podcast that has talked about their new code of conduct. to sum it up quickly
>in the past every event was separate and had no real way to holding someone accountable
>so they implemented the new code of conduct that can give players yellow/red cards
>this system was obviously just implemented so everyone starts off with a blank slate
>players that accumulate cards will be held accountable with suspensions/bans/lost points ect in future events
What a lot of this thread seems to be focused on is somehow retroactively punishing people from old events before this system was implemented. They are obviously not going to do this because not only is it silly but it doesn't even make sense
"i know your playing in the 2019 football season but i heard back in 2016 you were holding a player and didn't get called so yeah even though you haven't done anything this game we are going to give you a holding penalty"..... the fact that this is essentially what some people want shows just how silly dakka can get sometimes

Actually sports take previous infractions into account when determining post-game penalties and fines.

Vontaze Burfect is a great example in recent history. His "blow-to-the-head" plays in football have earned him repeated suspensions to the point where it's at something like a 4 game minimum at this point.

Basketball also has a technical foul system - as do some other sports - which levy additional penalties after the game is over.

That said, ITC is not making an attempt to be a governing body. They are more interested in providing a framework and selling FLG mats.

 helgrenze wrote:

Spoiler:

 Dysartes wrote:
A couple of thoughts from someone who has helped run larger (100+ player) MTG events - though from the position of data input, not Judge.

- The big thing that MTG has going for it as a game to make judging easy is the comprehensive rules document. It is not a small document (the current PDF weighs in at 225 pages), but it spells out as clearly as possible anything you need to deal with any rules interaction. GW rules are not written this clearly, and they'd need a technical writer on staff to produce anything similar. Equally, you're not meant to try to use the CRD to actually play an average game, merely look up a specific interaction.

- MTG Judges wander the floor during a round (as well as doing deck and decklist checks), and can throw warnings out for things they spot in passing. As a general rule, these don't really have an effect during an event. I'm not sure if these warnings are looked at at a higher level.

- A game loss in MTG is not the same as a game loss in 40k. The equivalent there would be a match loss, which is used for larger offences. As I'm not a judge, and it has been a little while since I helped with an event, I can't remember what falls into each category.

- Before you can be an official judge, you need to pass a written exam. For you to judge at larger events, such as a Pro Tour, you have to achieve a higher judge level. THis is to help with standardisation of interpretation and enforcement, so there should be little disagreement between judges of how something should be judged. Without a CRD, I'm not sure if you could implement this sort of evaluation into 40k, due to how wooly the wording is.

They have a CRD because someone sat down and wrote one.
There are more than 50 people credited with the creation of that document, mainly due to the sheer number of auxiliary rules that came with each new iteration of that game. The rules interactions in MtG are much more complex than in 40k, depending on which type of game you are playing, which editions, and which of the 30+ sets are being used.
While the basic rules do not change, the rule interactions between sets does, thus creating a need for a CRD.

40k basic rules also do not change, and the rules interactions tend to be fairly simple. The Dataslates were created to help players 'remember' the rules for their armies (afaik) by making them easier to access. The FAQ and Eratta deal with interactions they didn't realize was an issue at first.

However if someone Wants a CRD for 40k, maybe they should start collecting and collating all the required data?

GW make some degree of changes to the core rules at least two times a year at present (Spring/Autumn FAQs), even ignoring the potential for updates/beta rules to crop up in Chapter Approved or White Dwarf. Each Codex that comes out has the potential to introduce new and unexpected interactions, roughly equivalent to new sets for MTG - and, at least in 8th, they have turned up far more frequently.

That's ignoring the fact that we're on the 8th iteration of the basic rules, where (in most cases) I think the core changes have been more significant than base set to base set in MTG. While some Rogue Trader models are still playable under 8th ed rules, none of the rules articles published during that edition work under the current framework (whereas most, if not all, cards from Alpha still work in the current Magic rules - and if the text on the card has needed to be tweaked, Gatherer provides the correct wording).

We've arguably got four different types of 40k being promoted, just by GW - ignoring event-specific frameworks such as ITC, ETC, etc. Narrative, Open, Matched Play and Matched Play for Events (or whatever the last one is called - what the Rule of 3 only strictly applies to). I think you'd need to write a CRD aimed at Matched Play, including the other three under "Game Variants", as MP seems to be the one most in need of a better-written set of the rules.

A CRD in a similar framework to the MTG CRD would be doable, I think. Elements of the frame work would work, giving you something (roughly) like this as a framework:
- Game Concepts
- Parts of a Datasheet
- Keywords
- Turn Structure
- Additional Rules
- Multiplayer Rules
- Game Variants

I'm not sure what the 40k equivalents to "Zones" and "Spells, Abilities and Effects" would be, off-hand. Terrain might benefit from its own section, but I'm not certain, especially with how the core game terrain rules are written.

This isnt "I heard" this is confirmed, at the most recent LVO. Both Alex Mercer and this other guy were both accused of cheating. They stated it was "Mistakes". Heres the thing - no yellow cards were ever issued. So either that system failed, or doesn't actually exist yet.

This isn't historical, this literally just happened. And we bring up the history of Alex because HE WAS BANNED for doing this MULTIPLE times. He set a precedent. So the mistake argument goes out the window.

The other guy was "warned" several times according to reports, and when he finally got caught the final time, threw a hissy fit and won. So again, the system failed.

There needs to be a precedent, when you are at a tournament, there are no mistakes. Oh well so swell, GTFO of the tournament with that gak. Go play at the FLG with that crap.

 Marmatag wrote:
Actually sports take previous infractions into account when determining post-game penalties and fines.

Vontaze Burfict is a great example in recent history. His "blow-to-the-head" plays in football have earned him repeated suspensions to the point where it's at something like a 4 game minimum at this point.

Basketball also has a technical foul system - as do some other sports - which levy additional penalties after the game is over.

That said, ITC is not making an attempt to be a governing body. They are more interested in providing a framework and selling FLG mats.

Once again FLG has just instituted its new system that will track yellow/red cards that will track players history what you actually are advocating for is retroactively punishing someone for a possible infraction in an entirely different system. It's like giving someone in the NHL a hooking penalty because someone in the stands claims they got away with hooking when their buddy played against them in the KHL.

>people asked that FLG/ITC do something about cheating
>They go and take the lead designing an entire new system to track infractions
>wahhhhhh it's not enough you shouldn't even allow bob to play because bob totally cheated me in a GT 3 years ago

Asmodios wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Actually sports take previous infractions into account when determining post-game penalties and fines.

Vontaze Burfict is a great example in recent history. His "blow-to-the-head" plays in football have earned him repeated suspensions to the point where it's at something like a 4 game minimum at this point.

Basketball also has a technical foul system - as do some other sports - which levy additional penalties after the game is over.

That said, ITC is not making an attempt to be a governing body. They are more interested in providing a framework and selling FLG mats.

Once again FLG has just instituted its new system that will track yellow/red cards that will track players history what you actually are advocating for is retroactively punishing someone for a possible infraction in an entirely different system. It's like giving someone in the NHL a hooking penalty because someone in the stands claims they got away with hooking when their buddy played against them in the KHL.

>people asked that FLG/ITC do something about cheating
>They go and take the lead designing an entire new system to track infractions
>wahhhhhh it's not enough you shouldn't even allow bob to play because bob totally cheated me in a GT 3 years ago

See previous post - people at recent tournament were found to make "mistakes" multiple times, no cards of any color were ever used, thrown, held up, or shoved up the rear of African Rhinos. It didn't happen.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This isnt "I heard" this is confirmed, at the most recent LVO. Both Alex Mercer and this other guy were both accused of cheating. They stated it was "Mistakes". Heres the thing - no yellow cards were ever issued. So either that system failed, or doesn't actually exist yet.

This isn't historical, this literally just happened. And we bring up the history of Alex because HE WAS BANNED for doing this MULTIPLE times. He set a precedent. So the mistake argument goes out the window.

The other guy was "warned" several times according to reports, and when he finally got caught the final time, threw a hissy fit and won. So again, the system failed.

There needs to be a precedent, when you are at a tournament, there are no mistakes. Oh well so swell, GTFO of the tournament with that gak. Go play at the FLG with that crap.

>He was caught misplaying a rules in the game
>judge comes over and rules he cant do that
>checks rule yup he cant
>game continues on
We don't know if it happened in previous games. There's no proof if it did or didn't happen because none of his opponents reported it. Once again the FLG guys don't own a time machine and can't go back and see what happened. Its on the player (just like the tau player did) to call over a judge. A judge cant rule on something that might have happened in a previous game. You guys are literally complaining that the LVO judges cant go back in time

Play at a tournament. You'll make mistakes.

Asmodios wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This isnt "I heard" this is confirmed, at the most recent LVO. Both Alex Mercer and this other guy were both accused of cheating. They stated it was "Mistakes". Heres the thing - no yellow cards were ever issued. So either that system failed, or doesn't actually exist yet.

This isn't historical, this literally just happened. And we bring up the history of Alex because HE WAS BANNED for doing this MULTIPLE times. He set a precedent. So the mistake argument goes out the window.

The other guy was "warned" several times according to reports, and when he finally got caught the final time, threw a hissy fit and won. So again, the system failed.

There needs to be a precedent, when you are at a tournament, there are no mistakes. Oh well so swell, GTFO of the tournament with that gak. Go play at the FLG with that crap.

>He was caught misplaying a rules in the game
>judge comes over and rules he cant do that
>checks rule yup he cant
>game continues on
We don't know if it happened in previous games. There's no proof if it did or didn't happen because none of his opponents reported it. Once again the FLG guys don't own a time machine and can't go back and see what happened. Its on the player (just like the tau player did) to call over a judge. A judge cant rule on something that might have happened in a previous game. You guys are literally complaining that the LVO judges cant go back in time

That is a pretty inaccurate accounting of the events.

1. His behavior alone should have resulted in a red card.
2. His game was top 8
3. The ITC literally knew they screwed it up because they removed all videos of the event and banned people from posting about it.
4. Stop moving the goal posts. If there are multiple judges warnings THAT DAY, it's not out of the realm of understanding to make the 3rd or 5th or 8th offense a penalty.


At this point, you've shifted the goal posts so many times I am beginning to think you are a troll.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This isnt "I heard" this is confirmed, at the most recent LVO. Both Alex Mercer and this other guy were both accused of cheating. They stated it was "Mistakes". Heres the thing - no yellow cards were ever issued. So either that system failed, or doesn't actually exist yet.

This isn't historical, this literally just happened. And we bring up the history of Alex because HE WAS BANNED for doing this MULTIPLE times. He set a precedent. So the mistake argument goes out the window.

The other guy was "warned" several times according to reports, and when he finally got caught the final time, threw a hissy fit and won. So again, the system failed.

There needs to be a precedent, when you are at a tournament, there are no mistakes. Oh well so swell, GTFO of the tournament with that gak. Go play at the FLG with that crap.

>He was caught misplaying a rules in the game
>judge comes over and rules he cant do that
>checks rule yup he cant
>game continues on
We don't know if it happened in previous games. There's no proof if it did or didn't happen because none of his opponents reported it. Once again the FLG guys don't own a time machine and can't go back and see what happened. Its on the player (just like the tau player did) to call over a judge. A judge cant rule on something that might have happened in a previous game. You guys are literally complaining that the LVO judges cant go back in time

That is a pretty inaccurate accounting of the events.

1. His behavior alone should have resulted in a red card.
2. His game was top 8
3. The ITC literally knew they screwed it up because they removed all videos of the event and banned people from posting about it.
4. Stop moving the goal posts. If there are multiple judges warnings THAT DAY, it's not out of the realm of understanding to make the 3rd or 5th or 8th offense a penalty.


At this point, you've shifted the goal posts so many times I am beginning to think you are a troll.

1. cards are at the discretion of the judge and he didn't think it warranted a card.... maybe you should volunteer next year?
2. ok? what round it happened in isn't relevant to anything I said
3. flg only streamed AOS at the event
4. I haven't moved the goalpost an inch but you seem to be getting a bit flustered

Edit: I also have like 3 posts in this thread....guess its a compliment that my posts have had such bearing to make it seem like ive been posting for pages and pages trolling. But because you think im "moving the goalpost" you are clearly having an issue comprehending my points so
1. FLG just implemented the code of conduct. People arguing they should take into account GTs from before it was implemented are being ridiculous
2. Going forward cards will be tracked and known to event orginizers. suspensions can be given out at future events for red cards (so litterally tracking bad behavior like people want)
3. The FLG staff does not own a time machine. If something isn't caught during a round there's really nothing they can do "hey guys guy on table 134 round 3 might have misplayed a rule on turn 3 that might or might not have changed the outcome of that game and thus the pairings so we are just going to go back and replay the tournament from round 3"

Asmodios wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I think a lot of the discussion in this thread has been focused on the wrong issue. I'm aware that in a game as complex as 40k, it's tough to know every rule, and that makes it hard to catch people cheating. My issue is why are people who are known to be cheaters with multiple repeat incidents still allowed to compete?

You should actually listen to the FLG podcasts as they covered this exact thing not only last podcast but in every podcast that has talked about their new code of conduct. to sum it up quickly
>in the past every event was separate and had no real way to holding someone accountable
>so they implemented the new code of conduct that can give players yellow/red cards
>this system was obviously just implemented so everyone starts off with a blank slate
>players that accumulate cards will be held accountable with suspensions/bans/lost points ect in future events
What a lot of this thread seems to be focused on is somehow retroactively punishing people from old events before this system was implemented. They are obviously not going to do this because not only is it silly but it doesn't even make sense
"i know your playing in the 2019 football season but i heard back in 2016 you were holding a player and didn't get called so yeah even though you haven't done anything this game we are going to give you a holding penalty"..... the fact that this is essentially what some people want shows just how silly dakka can get sometimes

What many of us are saying is if someone is a known cheater with multiple dubious circumstances surrounding them, then they need to be suspended or something from events.

This is more like "The last 3 events you attended had multiple accusations of you misrepresenting rules and on two occasions the judges realized your list was actually illegal when you were playing in the finals" and then preventing that person from playing in events for a while.

I see nothing wrong with that, and there should be a TO specific way to have a list of suspect people and/or known cheaters (the same names usually come up in regards to this, it's not normally some unknown person) and at least be able to track it. If during an event they have 3 calls of cheating or it's discovered during the finals or even after the fact that they had an illegal list, it's doubtful that's just a mistake.

Wayniac wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I think a lot of the discussion in this thread has been focused on the wrong issue. I'm aware that in a game as complex as 40k, it's tough to know every rule, and that makes it hard to catch people cheating. My issue is why are people who are known to be cheaters with multiple repeat incidents still allowed to compete?

You should actually listen to the FLG podcasts as they covered this exact thing not only last podcast but in every podcast that has talked about their new code of conduct. to sum it up quickly
>in the past every event was separate and had no real way to holding someone accountable
>so they implemented the new code of conduct that can give players yellow/red cards
>this system was obviously just implemented so everyone starts off with a blank slate
>players that accumulate cards will be held accountable with suspensions/bans/lost points ect in future events
What a lot of this thread seems to be focused on is somehow retroactively punishing people from old events before this system was implemented. They are obviously not going to do this because not only is it silly but it doesn't even make sense
"i know your playing in the 2019 football season but i heard back in 2016 you were holding a player and didn't get called so yeah even though you haven't done anything this game we are going to give you a holding penalty"..... the fact that this is essentially what some people want shows just how silly dakka can get sometimes

What many of us are saying is if someone is a known cheater with multiple dubious circumstances surrounding them, then they need to be suspended or something from events.

This is more like "The last 3 events you attended had multiple accusations of you misrepresenting rules and on two occasions the judges realized your list was actually illegal when you were playing in the finals" and then preventing that person from playing in events for a while.

I see nothing wrong with that, and there should be a TO specific way to have a list of suspect people and/or known cheaters (the same names usually come up in regards to this, it's not normally some unknown person) and at least be able to track it. If during an event they have 3 calls of cheating or it's discovered during the finals or even after the fact that they had an illegal list, it's doubtful that's just a mistake.

Once again they just instituted a system to keep track of cheaters.... what they aren't doing is going back through unrelated events and retroactively banning people from things that happened before the system was even in place because once again its just unrealistic and silly.

I mean if all the keyboard warriors in this thread really want you guys can go start an international warhammer league and bar people who have been accused of cheating in the past from your events. FLG is simply taking the logical approach of starting new with its new system. The funny thing is if these people are caught cheating there is now a system in place and they will be delt with... no system exsisted before FLG did this yet now its somehow their fault

Asmodios wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This isnt "I heard" this is confirmed, at the most recent LVO. Both Alex Mercer and this other guy were both accused of cheating. They stated it was "Mistakes". Heres the thing - no yellow cards were ever issued. So either that system failed, or doesn't actually exist yet.

This isn't historical, this literally just happened. And we bring up the history of Alex because HE WAS BANNED for doing this MULTIPLE times. He set a precedent. So the mistake argument goes out the window.

The other guy was "warned" several times according to reports, and when he finally got caught the final time, threw a hissy fit and won. So again, the system failed.

There needs to be a precedent, when you are at a tournament, there are no mistakes. Oh well so swell, GTFO of the tournament with that gak. Go play at the FLG with that crap.

>He was caught misplaying a rules in the game
>judge comes over and rules he cant do that
>checks rule yup he cant
>game continues on
We don't know if it happened in previous games. There's no proof if it did or didn't happen because none of his opponents reported it. Once again the FLG guys don't own a time machine and can't go back and see what happened. Its on the player (just like the tau player did) to call over a judge. A judge cant rule on something that might have happened in a previous game. You guys are literally complaining that the LVO judges cant go back in time

That is a pretty inaccurate accounting of the events.

1. His behavior alone should have resulted in a red card.
2. His game was top 8
3. The ITC literally knew they screwed it up because they removed all videos of the event and banned people from posting about it.
4. Stop moving the goal posts. If there are multiple judges warnings THAT DAY, it's not out of the realm of understanding to make the 3rd or 5th or 8th offense a penalty.


At this point, you've shifted the goal posts so many times I am beginning to think you are a troll.

1. cards are at the discretion of the judge and he didn't think it warranted a card.... maybe you should volunteer next year?
2. ok? what round it happened in isn't relevant to anything I said
3. flg only streamed AOS at the event
4. I haven't moved the goalpost an inch but you seem to be getting a bit flustered

Edit: I also have like 3 posts in this thread....guess its a compliment that my posts have had such bearing to make it seem like ive been posting for pages and pages trolling. But because you think im "moving the goalpost" you are clearly having an issue comprehending my points so
1. FLG just implemented the code of conduct. People arguing they should take into account GTs from before it was implemented are being ridiculous
2. Going forward cards will be tracked and known to event orginizers. suspensions can be given out at future events for red cards (so litterally tracking bad behavior like people want)
3. The FLG staff does not own a time machine. If something isn't caught during a round there's really nothing they can do "hey guys guy on table 134 round 3 might have misplayed a rule on turn 3 that might or might not have changed the outcome of that game and thus the pairings so we are just going to go back and replay the tournament from round 3"

The smart thing to do with the code of conduct would actually to discriminate against the players who have a history. Now, if you pull them players aside (email) before the tournament starts and just flatly say "here's how it is, you know and we know there have been issues in the past in tournaments regarding your gameplay. That means that the judges will be instructed to card you on the first instance of any shady play, especially if it closely follows (is a repeat) of past infractions. You start this tournament on a clean slate, however you will be held to a higher standard of scrutiny. On that note, your opponents will not be aware of this, and as another layer of defence to yourself, you have the right to film your games in case you think your opponents are trying to get you sanctioned on purpose. If that is the case, the person will be carded themselves. At this point, you have a choice to make, you either accept these special conditions surrounding yourself, or I will refund your entry fee immediately. Those are your two options, no negotiations"

And before anyone thinks this is unfair, this happens in sports and organised events all the time. I have literally heard the conversations at world championship tournaments as well as being privy to conversations due to connections with managers of elite level sport teams. Should it happen? No, however it is a necessary evil.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This isnt "I heard" this is confirmed, at the most recent LVO. Both Alex Mercer and this other guy were both accused of cheating. They stated it was "Mistakes". Heres the thing - no yellow cards were ever issued. So either that system failed, or doesn't actually exist yet.

This isn't historical, this literally just happened. And we bring up the history of Alex because HE WAS BANNED for doing this MULTIPLE times. He set a precedent. So the mistake argument goes out the window.

The other guy was "warned" several times according to reports, and when he finally got caught the final time, threw a hissy fit and won. So again, the system failed.

There needs to be a precedent, when you are at a tournament, there are no mistakes. Oh well so swell, GTFO of the tournament with that gak. Go play at the FLG with that crap.

>He was caught misplaying a rules in the game
>judge comes over and rules he cant do that
>checks rule yup he cant
>game continues on
We don't know if it happened in previous games. There's no proof if it did or didn't happen because none of his opponents reported it. Once again the FLG guys don't own a time machine and can't go back and see what happened. Its on the player (just like the tau player did) to call over a judge. A judge cant rule on something that might have happened in a previous game. You guys are literally complaining that the LVO judges cant go back in time

That is a pretty inaccurate accounting of the events.

1. His behavior alone should have resulted in a red card.
2. His game was top 8
3. The ITC literally knew they screwed it up because they removed all videos of the event and banned people from posting about it.
4. Stop moving the goal posts. If there are multiple judges warnings THAT DAY, it's not out of the realm of understanding to make the 3rd or 5th or 8th offense a penalty.


At this point, you've shifted the goal posts so many times I am beginning to think you are a troll.

1. cards are at the discretion of the judge and he didn't think it warranted a card.... maybe you should volunteer next year?
2. ok? what round it happened in isn't relevant to anything I said
3. flg only streamed AOS at the event
4. I haven't moved the goalpost an inch but you seem to be getting a bit flustered

Edit: I also have like 3 posts in this thread....guess its a compliment that my posts have had such bearing to make it seem like ive been posting for pages and pages trolling. But because you think im "moving the goalpost" you are clearly having an issue comprehending my points so
1. FLG just implemented the code of conduct. People arguing they should take into account GTs from before it was implemented are being ridiculous
2. Going forward cards will be tracked and known to event orginizers. suspensions can be given out at future events for red cards (so litterally tracking bad behavior like people want)
3. The FLG staff does not own a time machine. If something isn't caught during a round there's really nothing they can do "hey guys guy on table 134 round 3 might have misplayed a rule on turn 3 that might or might not have changed the outcome of that game and thus the pairings so we are just going to go back and replay the tournament from round 3"

The smart thing to do with the code of conduct would actually to discriminate against the players who have a history. Now, if you pull them players aside (email) before the tournament starts and just flatly say "here's how it is, you know and we know there have been issues in the past in tournaments regarding your gameplay. That means that the judges will be instructed to card you on the first instance of any shady play, especially if it closely follows (is a repeat) of past infractions. You start this tournament on a clean slate, however you will be held to a higher standard of scrutiny. On that note, your opponents will not be aware of this, and as another layer of defence to yourself, you have the right to film your games in case you think your opponents are trying to get you sanctioned on purpose. If that is the case, the person will be carded themselves. At this point, you have a choice to make, you either accept these special conditions surrounding yourself, or I will refund your entry fee immediately. Those are your two options"

So the "smart" thing to do would be to discriminate against "known" cheaters
>how far back does this apply?
>what constitutes being a cheater?
>do accusations alone condone discrimination?
>What if 5 people say someone cheated 10 years ago and 5 say they didn't?
>Whats to stop someone from saying x person cheated at an RTT 5 years ago with 0 evidence? or a team of players accusing a player from another team?
It almost seems like the smart thing to do would be just starting fresh and have a new system implemented that keeps track of new infractions going forward

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There needs to be a precedent, when you are at a tournament, there are no mistakes. Oh well so swell, GTFO of the tournament with that gak. Go play at the FLG with that crap.

I agree with this. If you forget, you forgot. No take backs. No redo's. No rewinds in your favor. If you have don't something you can't do, and the game state can be rewound to correct it, that is permissible. If the game state can't be rewound, Yellow card the player, and allow the game to continue.

I cannot comment on any tables other than my own but for the one mistake an opponent made that came up after any time to correct it, the judge immediately issued a yellow card as the resolution.

Hopefully Code of Conduct sanctions can be built into BCP TO, both as a resource to easily report cards and to assess players that might be a risk at the event.

So here are neutral changes that I think would eliminate a lot of issues, and actually speed up play:

1. Digital dice rolls - This prevents picking up misses (Mercer)
2. Tracking those digital rolls
3. Digital trackers for wounds, CP, etc. This applies only to tracked numbers obviously. This prevents people (Mercer as an example) picking up his opponent's wound tracker and dropping it from a 5 to a 3.
4. No more tape measures. Only pre measured rods, which are verified to be the exact length. So basically range fans, or foot sticks. Take the measuring out of the hands of the player.

Basically, take the chances to cheat away from the players, and speed up the BS. No more dice shenanigans, no more "I thought he was at 4 wounds?", no more "range mistakes". Leave the ugly stuff up to the system, and leave the fun stuff to the players.

And before any neckbeards chime in to defend dice rolling, stop. This isn't FLG rules, this is Tournament rules. The game is Warhammer, with Models. Not Mathhammer with Dice.

 Marmatag wrote:
Play at a tournament. You'll make mistakes.

True thing. However anyone who has been around the block will start to see warning flags with certain types of behaviour. Patterns of mistakes shall we say.

If you make a bad mistake in your own favour and get caught out on it then that is a suitable situation for a yellow card - especially in a system like LVO where it was 2 yellows before it goes to red. It puts you on a warning that you need to be careful not to make any more serious mistakes that disadvantage your opponent.

The framework is the right framework IMO - the application of the framework falls into the same old pattern of thinking that you need to issue verbal warnings etc etc. The yellow card is a warning system, use it.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So here are neutral changes that I think would eliminate a lot of issues, and actually speed up play:

1. Digital dice rolls - This prevents picking up misses (Mercer)
2. Tracking those digital rolls
3. Digital trackers for wounds, CP, etc. This applies only to tracked numbers obviously. This prevents people (Mercer as an example) picking up his opponent's wound tracker and dropping it from a 5 to a 3.
4. No more tape measures. Only pre measured rods, which are verified to be the exact length. So basically range fans, or foot sticks. Take the measuring out of the hands of the player.

Basically, take the chances to cheat away from the players, and speed up the BS. No more dice shenanigans, no more "I thought he was at 4 wounds?", no more "range mistakes". Leave the ugly stuff up to the system, and leave the fun stuff to the players.

And before any neckbeards chime in to defend dice rolling, stop. This isn't FLG rules, this is Tournament rules. The game is Warhammer, with Models. Not Mathhammer with Dice.

5.) Remove TLOS all terrain and models abstracted -that way there is no cheating on Los arguments or cover
6,) remove models-that way cheater can nudge them for extra movement or fail to remove them. Or modeling for advantage
7.) Digitize whole game and play video game instead, P.C. prevents all cheating

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So here are neutral changes that I think would eliminate a lot of issues, and actually speed up play:

1. Digital dice rolls - This prevents picking up misses (Mercer)
2. Tracking those digital rolls
3. Digital trackers for wounds, CP, etc. This applies only to tracked numbers obviously. This prevents people (Mercer as an example) picking up his opponent's wound tracker and dropping it from a 5 to a 3.
4. No more tape measures. Only pre measured rods, which are verified to be the exact length. So basically range fans, or foot sticks. Take the measuring out of the hands of the player.

Basically, take the chances to cheat away from the players, and speed up the BS. No more dice shenanigans, no more "I thought he was at 4 wounds?", no more "range mistakes". Leave the ugly stuff up to the system, and leave the fun stuff to the players.

And before any neckbeards chime in to defend dice rolling, stop. This isn't FLG rules, this is Tournament rules. The game is Warhammer, with Models. Not Mathhammer with Dice.

Your really taking this gak way to seriously.
Have you ever played in a tournament? The way you talk about these things leads me to believe you haven't.

And #1 is very easy. Its called telling your opponent not to do that. And if he does it a second time refuse to accept what he says and tell him to roll again.

Asmodios wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This isnt "I heard" this is confirmed, at the most recent LVO. Both Alex Mercer and this other guy were both accused of cheating. They stated it was "Mistakes". Heres the thing - no yellow cards were ever issued. So either that system failed, or doesn't actually exist yet.

This isn't historical, this literally just happened. And we bring up the history of Alex because HE WAS BANNED for doing this MULTIPLE times. He set a precedent. So the mistake argument goes out the window.

The other guy was "warned" several times according to reports, and when he finally got caught the final time, threw a hissy fit and won. So again, the system failed.

There needs to be a precedent, when you are at a tournament, there are no mistakes. Oh well so swell, GTFO of the tournament with that gak. Go play at the FLG with that crap.

>He was caught misplaying a rules in the game
>judge comes over and rules he cant do that
>checks rule yup he cant
>game continues on
We don't know if it happened in previous games. There's no proof if it did or didn't happen because none of his opponents reported it. Once again the FLG guys don't own a time machine and can't go back and see what happened. Its on the player (just like the tau player did) to call over a judge. A judge cant rule on something that might have happened in a previous game. You guys are literally complaining that the LVO judges cant go back in time

That is a pretty inaccurate accounting of the events.

1. His behavior alone should have resulted in a red card.
2. His game was top 8
3. The ITC literally knew they screwed it up because they removed all videos of the event and banned people from posting about it.
4. Stop moving the goal posts. If there are multiple judges warnings THAT DAY, it's not out of the realm of understanding to make the 3rd or 5th or 8th offense a penalty.


At this point, you've shifted the goal posts so many times I am beginning to think you are a troll.

1. cards are at the discretion of the judge and he didn't think it warranted a card.... maybe you should volunteer next year?
2. ok? what round it happened in isn't relevant to anything I said
3. flg only streamed AOS at the event
4. I haven't moved the goalpost an inch but you seem to be getting a bit flustered

Edit: I also have like 3 posts in this thread....guess its a compliment that my posts have had such bearing to make it seem like ive been posting for pages and pages trolling. But because you think im "moving the goalpost" you are clearly having an issue comprehending my points so
1. FLG just implemented the code of conduct. People arguing they should take into account GTs from before it was implemented are being ridiculous
2. Going forward cards will be tracked and known to event orginizers. suspensions can be given out at future events for red cards (so litterally tracking bad behavior like people want)
3. The FLG staff does not own a time machine. If something isn't caught during a round there's really nothing they can do "hey guys guy on table 134 round 3 might have misplayed a rule on turn 3 that might or might not have changed the outcome of that game and thus the pairings so we are just going to go back and replay the tournament from round 3"

The smart thing to do with the code of conduct would actually to discriminate against the players who have a history. Now, if you pull them players aside (email) before the tournament starts and just flatly say "here's how it is, you know and we know there have been issues in the past in tournaments regarding your gameplay. That means that the judges will be instructed to card you on the first instance of any shady play, especially if it closely follows (is a repeat) of past infractions. You start this tournament on a clean slate, however you will be held to a higher standard of scrutiny. On that note, your opponents will not be aware of this, and as another layer of defence to yourself, you have the right to film your games in case you think your opponents are trying to get you sanctioned on purpose. If that is the case, the person will be carded themselves. At this point, you have a choice to make, you either accept these special conditions surrounding yourself, or I will refund your entry fee immediately. Those are your two options"

So the "smart" thing to do would be to discriminate against "known" cheaters
>how far back does this apply?
>what constitutes being a cheater?
>do accusations alone condone discrimination?
>What if 5 people say someone cheated 10 years ago and 5 say they didn't?
>Whats to stop someone from saying x person cheated at an RTT 5 years ago with 0 evidence? or a team of players accusing a player from another team?
It almost seems like the smart thing to do would be just starting fresh and have a new system implemented that keeps track of new infractions going forward

If a basketball player fails multiple drug tests in the Euro-league, you can bet he's gonna be peeing in a lot of cups his first season in the NBA, and he's not getting the benefit of the doubt when he says "I didn't know that was a controlled substance".

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So here are neutral changes that I think would eliminate a lot of issues, and actually speed up play:

1. Digital dice rolls - This prevents picking up misses (Mercer)
2. Tracking those digital rolls
3. Digital trackers for wounds, CP, etc. This applies only to tracked numbers obviously. This prevents people (Mercer as an example) picking up his opponent's wound tracker and dropping it from a 5 to a 3.
4. No more tape measures. Only pre measured rods, which are verified to be the exact length. So basically range fans, or foot sticks. Take the measuring out of the hands of the player.

Basically, take the chances to cheat away from the players, and speed up the BS. No more dice shenanigans, no more "I thought he was at 4 wounds?", no more "range mistakes". Leave the ugly stuff up to the system, and leave the fun stuff to the players.

And before any neckbeards chime in to defend dice rolling, stop. This isn't FLG rules, this is Tournament rules. The game is Warhammer, with Models. Not Mathhammer with Dice.

So add in more expense when the game is already expensive and also have to deal with more electronics. Picking up dice and rolling them is going to be faster. Entering in data into a screen to keep track of wounds adds time to a game.

No tape measures but pre measured rods? In a game that has weapons that range from 1 inch to 20 feet? Yea let me get my pack of whippy sticks to try and cover every possible range.

What your suggesting is neither practical nor necessary in 99 percent of games tournament or otherwise.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So here are neutral changes that I think would eliminate a lot of issues, and actually speed up play:

1. Digital dice rolls - This prevents picking up misses (Mercer)
2. Tracking those digital rolls
3. Digital trackers for wounds, CP, etc. This applies only to tracked numbers obviously. This prevents people (Mercer as an example) picking up his opponent's wound tracker and dropping it from a 5 to a 3.
4. No more tape measures. Only pre measured rods, which are verified to be the exact length. So basically range fans, or foot sticks. Take the measuring out of the hands of the player.

Basically, take the chances to cheat away from the players, and speed up the BS. No more dice shenanigans, no more "I thought he was at 4 wounds?", no more "range mistakes". Leave the ugly stuff up to the system, and leave the fun stuff to the players.

And before any neckbeards chime in to defend dice rolling, stop. This isn't FLG rules, this is Tournament rules. The game is Warhammer, with Models. Not Mathhammer with Dice.

1. Digital roles are already allowed but the game will never be reduced to mandated digital rolls ffs GW sells dice as one of their products and is marketed as a dice game
2. so we are now going to get an ipad mandated at every game table and have someone that develops this tracker and then what a judge at every table to make sure they are entered in correctly
3. once again whos going to front the cost to this/ you could also just change a counter on a digital trackpad when someone isnt looking just like moving a dice
4. "can you hand me the 24-inch stick for unit b wait I rolled a 5 for an advance.... crap we don't have a 29-inch stick. If only someone came up with some type of extendable stick with all the different combinations on it"

These have to be some of the worst ideas I've ever seen presented. Id love to see you run an event with all these pre-measured sticks and id love to read the reviews

Imagine thinking that "yeah my bud totally got cheated by player x 4 years ago at an RTT" is the same thing as failing a verified drug test in a professional league. I noticed you also failed to answer a single question I raised above and my immediate assumption is because you have no answer. The fact is that there is no good way to retroactively apply rules as we have never had a huge worldwide standardized player conduct code like this before. If the players you are concerned about are caught they will be subjected to punishment now. It almost seems like your concerned that they wont cheat and thus can play and would rather ban people for possible cheating long before this system was ever implimented. Looks like we should tell kenny G from the long war he cant host the long wars double event and the LVO next year because years ago before this system he once brought an illegal list

Asmodios wrote:

Spoiler:

 EnTyme wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This isnt "I heard" this is confirmed, at the most recent LVO. Both Alex Mercer and this other guy were both accused of cheating. They stated it was "Mistakes". Heres the thing - no yellow cards were ever issued. So either that system failed, or doesn't actually exist yet.

This isn't historical, this literally just happened. And we bring up the history of Alex because HE WAS BANNED for doing this MULTIPLE times. He set a precedent. So the mistake argument goes out the window.

The other guy was "warned" several times according to reports, and when he finally got caught the final time, threw a hissy fit and won. So again, the system failed.

There needs to be a precedent, when you are at a tournament, there are no mistakes. Oh well so swell, GTFO of the tournament with that gak. Go play at the FLG with that crap.

>He was caught misplaying a rules in the game
>judge comes over and rules he cant do that
>checks rule yup he cant
>game continues on
We don't know if it happened in previous games. There's no proof if it did or didn't happen because none of his opponents reported it. Once again the FLG guys don't own a time machine and can't go back and see what happened. Its on the player (just like the tau player did) to call over a judge. A judge cant rule on something that might have happened in a previous game. You guys are literally complaining that the LVO judges cant go back in time

That is a pretty inaccurate accounting of the events.

1. His behavior alone should have resulted in a red card.
2. His game was top 8
3. The ITC literally knew they screwed it up because they removed all videos of the event and banned people from posting about it.
4. Stop moving the goal posts. If there are multiple judges warnings THAT DAY, it's not out of the realm of understanding to make the 3rd or 5th or 8th offense a penalty.


At this point, you've shifted the goal posts so many times I am beginning to think you are a troll.

1. cards are at the discretion of the judge and he didn't think it warranted a card.... maybe you should volunteer next year?
2. ok? what round it happened in isn't relevant to anything I said
3. flg only streamed AOS at the event
4. I haven't moved the goalpost an inch but you seem to be getting a bit flustered

Edit: I also have like 3 posts in this thread....guess its a compliment that my posts have had such bearing to make it seem like ive been posting for pages and pages trolling. But because you think im "moving the goalpost" you are clearly having an issue comprehending my points so
1. FLG just implemented the code of conduct. People arguing they should take into account GTs from before it was implemented are being ridiculous
2. Going forward cards will be tracked and known to event orginizers. suspensions can be given out at future events for red cards (so litterally tracking bad behavior like people want)
3. The FLG staff does not own a time machine. If something isn't caught during a round there's really nothing they can do "hey guys guy on table 134 round 3 might have misplayed a rule on turn 3 that might or might not have changed the outcome of that game and thus the pairings so we are just going to go back and replay the tournament from round 3"

The smart thing to do with the code of conduct would actually to discriminate against the players who have a history. Now, if you pull them players aside (email) before the tournament starts and just flatly say "here's how it is, you know and we know there have been issues in the past in tournaments regarding your gameplay. That means that the judges will be instructed to card you on the first instance of any shady play, especially if it closely follows (is a repeat) of past infractions. You start this tournament on a clean slate, however you will be held to a higher standard of scrutiny. On that note, your opponents will not be aware of this, and as another layer of defence to yourself, you have the right to film your games in case you think your opponents are trying to get you sanctioned on purpose. If that is the case, the person will be carded themselves. At this point, you have a choice to make, you either accept these special conditions surrounding yourself, or I will refund your entry fee immediately. Those are your two options"

So the "smart" thing to do would be to discriminate against "known" cheaters
>how far back does this apply?
>what constitutes being a cheater?
>do accusations alone condone discrimination?
>What if 5 people say someone cheated 10 years ago and 5 say they didn't?
>Whats to stop someone from saying x person cheated at an RTT 5 years ago with 0 evidence? or a team of players accusing a player from another team?
It almost seems like the smart thing to do would be just starting fresh and have a new system implemented that keeps track of new infractions going forward

If a basketball player fails multiple drug tests in the Euro-league, you can bet he's gonna be peeing in a lot of cups his first season in the NBA, and he's not getting the benefit of the doubt when he says "I didn't know that was a controlled substance".

Imagine thinking that "yeah my bud totally got cheated by player x 4 years ago at an RTT" is the same thing as failing a verified drug test in a professional league. I noticed you also failed to answer a single question I raised above and my immediate assumption is because you have no answer. The fact is that there is no good way to retroactively apply rules as we have never had a huge worldwide standardized player conduct code like this before. If the players you are concerned about are caught they will be subjected to punishment now. It almost seems like your concerned that they wont cheat and thus can play and would rather ban people for possible cheating long before this system was ever implimented. Looks like we should tell kenny G from the long war he cant host the long wars double event and the LVO next year because years ago before this system he once brought an illegal list

- To keep it clean, the previous 12 months - I assume, yellow/red cards would be slate cleaned every year.
- What constitutes being a cheater is abusing rules for your favour, not making an honest mistake, but making those mistakes on a repeated basis that crucially only work to your advantage. if someone is sloppy with the rules, you expect it to work not in their favor at times also, so handicap themselves by accident, rather than trying to gain an advantage also, in my experience with such individuals we are discussing that does not happen.
- Previous 12 months only, and again, those 5 people would need some form of evidence - remember the TO's are only targeting known individuals, which they have admitted they know about (article by the judge a few pages back), they would likely have some form of hard evidence to back this up. There's no smoke without a fire, and if they went off word of mouth, it would be easy to paint a picture, especially if reports are coming from different people who don't know each other.

Again, sometimes a few people need to be rung out to dry for the greater good. I'm not really in the mindset of enabling a few people to be dicks, I'm more in the mindset of protecting the investment of those that are honest. In my proposal they have their chance to play nice, they aren't being banned, they just would be under more scrutiny for their 'mistakes'.

Finally, just because what happens in basketball is a different end of the spectrum for you doesn't mean it is not a good idea to follow that protocol.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Spoiler:

 EnTyme wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This isnt "I heard" this is confirmed, at the most recent LVO. Both Alex Mercer and this other guy were both accused of cheating. They stated it was "Mistakes". Heres the thing - no yellow cards were ever issued. So either that system failed, or doesn't actually exist yet.

This isn't historical, this literally just happened. And we bring up the history of Alex because HE WAS BANNED for doing this MULTIPLE times. He set a precedent. So the mistake argument goes out the window.

The other guy was "warned" several times according to reports, and when he finally got caught the final time, threw a hissy fit and won. So again, the system failed.

There needs to be a precedent, when you are at a tournament, there are no mistakes. Oh well so swell, GTFO of the tournament with that gak. Go play at the FLG with that crap.

>He was caught misplaying a rules in the game
>judge comes over and rules he cant do that
>checks rule yup he cant
>game continues on
We don't know if it happened in previous games. There's no proof if it did or didn't happen because none of his opponents reported it. Once again the FLG guys don't own a time machine and can't go back and see what happened. Its on the player (just like the tau player did) to call over a judge. A judge cant rule on something that might have happened in a previous game. You guys are literally complaining that the LVO judges cant go back in time

That is a pretty inaccurate accounting of the events.

1. His behavior alone should have resulted in a red card.
2. His game was top 8
3. The ITC literally knew they screwed it up because they removed all videos of the event and banned people from posting about it.
4. Stop moving the goal posts. If there are multiple judges warnings THAT DAY, it's not out of the realm of understanding to make the 3rd or 5th or 8th offense a penalty.


At this point, you've shifted the goal posts so many times I am beginning to think you are a troll.

1. cards are at the discretion of the judge and he didn't think it warranted a card.... maybe you should volunteer next year?
2. ok? what round it happened in isn't relevant to anything I said
3. flg only streamed AOS at the event
4. I haven't moved the goalpost an inch but you seem to be getting a bit flustered

Edit: I also have like 3 posts in this thread....guess its a compliment that my posts have had such bearing to make it seem like ive been posting for pages and pages trolling. But because you think im "moving the goalpost" you are clearly having an issue comprehending my points so
1. FLG just implemented the code of conduct. People arguing they should take into account GTs from before it was implemented are being ridiculous
2. Going forward cards will be tracked and known to event orginizers. suspensions can be given out at future events for red cards (so litterally tracking bad behavior like people want)
3. The FLG staff does not own a time machine. If something isn't caught during a round there's really nothing they can do "hey guys guy on table 134 round 3 might have misplayed a rule on turn 3 that might or might not have changed the outcome of that game and thus the pairings so we are just going to go back and replay the tournament from round 3"

The smart thing to do with the code of conduct would actually to discriminate against the players who have a history. Now, if you pull them players aside (email) before the tournament starts and just flatly say "here's how it is, you know and we know there have been issues in the past in tournaments regarding your gameplay. That means that the judges will be instructed to card you on the first instance of any shady play, especially if it closely follows (is a repeat) of past infractions. You start this tournament on a clean slate, however you will be held to a higher standard of scrutiny. On that note, your opponents will not be aware of this, and as another layer of defence to yourself, you have the right to film your games in case you think your opponents are trying to get you sanctioned on purpose. If that is the case, the person will be carded themselves. At this point, you have a choice to make, you either accept these special conditions surrounding yourself, or I will refund your entry fee immediately. Those are your two options"

So the "smart" thing to do would be to discriminate against "known" cheaters
>how far back does this apply?
>what constitutes being a cheater?
>do accusations alone condone discrimination?
>What if 5 people say someone cheated 10 years ago and 5 say they didn't?
>Whats to stop someone from saying x person cheated at an RTT 5 years ago with 0 evidence? or a team of players accusing a player from another team?
It almost seems like the smart thing to do would be just starting fresh and have a new system implemented that keeps track of new infractions going forward

If a basketball player fails multiple drug tests in the Euro-league, you can bet he's gonna be peeing in a lot of cups his first season in the NBA, and he's not getting the benefit of the doubt when he says "I didn't know that was a controlled substance".

Imagine thinking that "yeah my bud totally got cheated by player x 4 years ago at an RTT" is the same thing as failing a verified drug test in a professional league. I noticed you also failed to answer a single question I raised above and my immediate assumption is because you have no answer. The fact is that there is no good way to retroactively apply rules as we have never had a huge worldwide standardized player conduct code like this before. If the players you are concerned about are caught they will be subjected to punishment now. It almost seems like your concerned that they wont cheat and thus can play and would rather ban people for possible cheating long before this system was ever implimented. Looks like we should tell kenny G from the long war he cant host the long wars double event and the LVO next year because years ago before this system he once brought an illegal list

- To keep it clean, the previous 12 months - I assume, yellow/red cards would be slate cleaned every year.
- What constitutes being a cheater is abusing rules for your favour, not making an honest mistake, but making those mistakes on a repeated basis that crucially only work to your advantage. if someone is sloppy with the rules, you expect it to work not in their favor at times also, so handicap themselves by accident, rather than trying to gain an advantage also, in my experience with such individuals we are discussing that does not happen.
- Previous 12 months only, and again, those 5 people would need some form of evidence - remember the TO's are only targeting known individuals, which they have admitted they know about (article by the judge a few pages back), they would likely have some form of hard evidence to back this up. There's no smoke without a fire, and if they went off word of mouth, it would be easy to paint a picture, especially if reports are coming from different people who don't know each other.

Again, sometimes a few people need to be rung out to dry for the greater good. I'm not really in the mindset of enabling a few people to be dicks, I'm more in the mindset of protecting the investment of those that are honest. In my proposal they have their chance to play nice, they aren't being banned, they just would be under more scrutiny for their 'mistakes'.

Finally, just because what happens in basketball is a different end of the spectrum for you doesn't mean it is not a good idea to follow that protocol.

The basketball analogy doesn't even really work (i didnt play basketball but played pro hockey) For example USA hockey has no real relation to to the KHL. If you lead the league in penalty minutes in the KHL then sign an NHL contract you don't all of a sudden get suspended in the NHL. Heck, I remember we had a bench-clearing brawl at a tournament in Canada when we were only like squirts. We had about 10 guys get a 3 game suspension. That only applied to USA hockey events and you could only serve the suspensions at USA hockey events. This meant we went to the state tournament 10 players down because the tournament we played in between the two wasn't USA hockey certified.

In the same way you want retroactive punishments for players that
1. didn't even happen at the same event
2. the other event isnt run by the same organization
3. there is no standard in this thread of how far back you would go/ the burden of proof needed/ how many times this happened/ what type of "cheating

The fact is its simply easier and fairer to start fresh with this new system. This system is meant to protect players into the future not go back threw 20 years of 40k and punish people for things that might or might not have even been "cheating"

Asmodios wrote:
1. Digital roles are already allowed but the game will never be reduced to mandated digital rolls ffs GW sells dice as one of their products and is marketed as a dice game

Nobody gives a about dice. The dice are a means to an end, generating a random result, not the point of the game. As long as the digital dice are easy to use there's absolutely no reason not to use them.

you could also just change a counter on a digital trackpad when someone isnt looking just like moving a dice

If you have any sense at all in designing the software you have it log and timestamp every number change. So yeah, you can change it, but then a judge can look back and see when exactly that value was changed. And if you're streaming they can very easily tell if the number was changed legitimately as a result of in-game actions or if the player cheated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:
The fact is that there is no good way to retroactively apply rules as we have never had a huge worldwide standardized player conduct code like this before.

You don't need a standardized code of conduct because the instance of cheating was still cheating back then even if it wasn't punished. Nobody is getting retroactively punished and labeled a cheater over something that was legal when they did it but has since been ruled illegal, they're confirmed cheaters who knew perfectly well they were cheating at the time. The only change is that we're going back and deciding no, we don't really want you to play this game anymore after all. Once a cheater, always a cheater, and I have zero problem with cheating s getting permanently banned from the game regardless of when their cheating occurred.

And, regarding the guy throwing a fit over not being allowed to cheat, well, that behavior is unacceptable regardless of whether or not there is a formal written code of conduct that explicitly punishes it. That should have been DQed from the tournament, physically removed from the property, and permanently banned from ever attending a 40k event again.

It's almost like having a good app could speed up dice rolls while also logging all output so that it can't be cheated on.

Frankly, if you are worried about it being "reduced to mandated digital rolls ffs" you're a bit of a dinosaur. Any good app should hook into your *already* registered tourney list and roll attacks based on what is alive.

Bonus points if it can actually communicate to your opponents app and alert them of casualties.