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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, I'm not sure how else to say this:

Cheating by mistake and cheating by intent are both cheating and should be given a warning. This ain't hobby night at the local garage. This is a major tournament. Accidently nudge the model? Warning. Misinterpret the rule regarding distance?. Accidently pick up the wrong dice? You're kicked out, and flagged.

Nobody would ever compete. Ever. I know I wouldn't, that stuff happens in 95% of my games, and every other game of 40k I have ever witnessed.

Karol wrote:
...the law does not care in general if you avoided paying taxs, because you forgot that you own a small jetplane or because your pro activly trying to avoid taxation. Punishment should be the same no matter what. The scare factor alone is worth it. Plus people would have to train more to get a hand of their own armies. Fewer errors, fewer disqualifications. over allbetter for the game

You are wrong, the law DOES take into account if lawbreaking is accidental, or is intentional and malicious. Penalties for the former are far more light, and for most offenses something called "Mens Rea" has to be proved in order to be convicted of a crime.

I've already pointed out that "fear factor" doesn't motivate people at all, your line of reasoning is flawed.

w1zard wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, I'm not sure how else to say this:

Cheating by mistake and cheating by intent are both cheating and should be given a warning. This ain't hobby night at the local garage. This is a major tournament. Accidently nudge the model? Warning. Misinterpret the rule regarding distance?. Accidently pick up the wrong dice? You're kicked out, and flagged.

Nobody would ever compete. Ever. I know I wouldn't, that stuff happens in 95% of my games, and every other game of 40k I have ever witnessed.

Which is the ultimate goal. Sabotage and de-legitimatize are the main motivations. They know their suggestions are impractical and absurd. They might as well demand Judge Dredd walk the hall shooting people.

You are wrong, the law DOES take into account if lawbreaking is accidental, or is intentional and malicious. Penalties for the former are far more light, and for most offenses something called "Mens Rea" has to be proved in order to be convicted of a crime.

Maybe in the US it is like that, here the only lowering of sentance if if A your someone important B your a woman. If you kill someone with an ax, you get 8 years, go out after 4. If you kill someone in a car accident while drunk you get 8 years and go out after 4. The judge more or less has to hate you on a personal level for the sentencing be out of wack. Or it is one of those wierd moments where one of the sides is the general attorney as a civilian, but as general attorney he assigns his case to be done in the place where his party picked all the judges. That is more or less the only times I can think of courts or federal goverment carrying if you did something on purpose or not. Heck if it comes to important people they don't even care if you really are the wronged side or not. We have a guy being trailed after he reported that the head of the ruling party, who is also his family, didn't pay him 300k euro for work done. And the trail, after he showed tapes, conctracts signed etc is that he tried to mug the party leader.

w1zard wrote:

You are wrong, the law DOES take into account if lawbreaking is accidental, or is intentional and malicious. Penalties for the former are far more light, and for most offenses something called "Mens Rea" has to be proved in order to be convicted of a crime.

That is not really how most legal systems work - the requirement to prove intent is wildly overstated by a lot of lay commentators. In practice intent will be inferred from people's actions, you can be considered to intend an outcome of an action if it was reasonably foreseeable. Some of the aftermath of recent 40K scandals has fallen into the keyboard warrior definitions of proving intent - which is essentially unprovable to the degree they demand and therefore nobody would ever be found guilty of anything. A jury does not need to have mind-reading powers. They can and will infer that a person intended the foreseeable outcome of actions which they have been proven to take.

Applying this to a 40K situation if you gain an unfair advantage from clearly demonstrated "mistakes" it is reasonable to infer that this was your intent and apply a suitable reprimand or punishment such as a yellow/red card. If you make a rules "mistake" on the top table there is an assumption of competence and therefore a far lower tolerance for "mistakes" that gain you game advantage - in my opinion it is perfectly reasonable to give out a yellow card for this. The straight red card should only be for grossly unsporting/inappropriate behaviour or for clearly obvious deliberate cheating (which is very rare). In practice it would only be for a sustained pattern of making errors that gain unfair advantage - earning more than one yellow card - that would then result in a real penalty. Although by analogy with a lot of professional sports i would prefer there also be a lower tier of in-game penalties before the cards come out - perhaps a 1VP penalty for each minor and possibly unintentional infringement of the rules.

I've already pointed out that "fear factor" doesn't motivate people at all, your line of reasoning is flawed.

A reasonable fear of detection - i.e. your indiscretions will be noticed and acted upon - is a far better deterrent than extreme sanctions for infrequent or improbably detection. It is far better to have a system where most problems are found and acted upon with a reasonable punishment than one where very occasionally a transgression is harshly punished.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

w1zard wrote:

You are wrong, the law DOES take into account if lawbreaking is accidental, or is intentional and malicious. Penalties for the former are far more light, and for most offenses something called "Mens Rea" has to be proved in order to be convicted of a crime.

That is not really how most legal systems work - the requirement to prove intent is wildly overstated by a lot of lay commentators. In practice intent will be inferred from people's actions, you can be considered to intend an outcome of an action if it was reasonably foreseeable. Some of the aftermath of recent 40K scandals has fallen into the keyboard warrior definitions of proving intent - which is essentially unprovable to the degree they demand and therefore nobody would ever be found guilty of anything. A jury does not need to have mind-reading powers. They can and will infer that a person intended the foreseeable outcome of actions which they have been proven to take.

Applying this to a 40K situation if you gain an unfair advantage from clearly demonstrated "mistakes" it is reasonable to infer that this was your intent and apply a suitable reprimand or punishment such as a yellow/red card. If you make a rules "mistake" on the top table there is an assumption of competence and therefore a far lower tolerance for "mistakes" that gain you game advantage - in my opinion it is perfectly reasonable to give out a yellow card for this. The straight red card should only be for grossly unsporting/inappropriate behaviour or for clearly obvious deliberate cheating (which is very rare). In practice it would only be for a sustained pattern of making errors that gain unfair advantage - earning more than one yellow card - that would then result in a real penalty. Although by analogy with a lot of professional sports i would prefer there also be a lower tier of in-game penalties before the cards come out - perhaps a 1VP penalty for each minor and possibly unintentional infringement of the rules.

You are basically describing MtG's DCI system here. All possible offenses are cataloged and result in penalties depending on their severity and the REL, with REL being rule enforcement level. Forgetting a rule at a pre-release which is aimed at new and casual players is not punished as harshly as at an invitational tournament for professional players.
Even those small penalties add up, at some point you get game losses, match losses, DQs and banns from events.

You'd have offenses which are void of judgement like "incorrect movement/measurement" or "incorrect presentation of army rules", which get punished the same whether there was intent or not.

For example, if you oops on your Knight Household for the first time, you get get a warning, and - if possible - the judge rolls back any shooting that has been done so far for the knight and you have to re-do that. You get another two warnings from incorrectly picking up dice or accidentally pushing models, you lose the game, getting rewarded 0 points and top tables and prices being out of reach. Depending on what happened, the judge can then go back to your previous opponents and check if same offenses have happened during their game. 0 points for those games as well. (don't nail me down on 3 warnings per game, it's just an example and is probably too little space for human error)
Manage to get another game loss during the same event? You're out of the tournament. Same things happens again? You are no longer singing up for ITC.

While the numbers and rules might need tweaking, for MtG these rules have done wonders to make playing in events much more enjoyable. Fifteen years ago, during a MtG tournament I drew too many cards when taking my second mulligan, forcing me to mulligan to even less cards and basically costing me the game, the match and denying me any prices. - guess what? That was the last time this has ever happened to me, I take extra caution to count my cards after a mulligan before looking at them.
The lesson here was that there were rules to handle my cheating/mistake that everybody could look up, a judge was called and he resolved the issue within seconds. Anyone trying to cheat while taking a mulligan is fully aware that he or she will get a warning and lose another card when they do.

When people are aware that there are punishments for nudging models, fumbling dice or using rules you should not be using they might take more caution to err on the right side. If you are not playing a clean game, I see no reason why you shouldn't be punished for that - your opponent is on the receiving end of your mess, so it's just fair to allow him to call a judge and make your play properly.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The ITC has a lot of influence and good will due to it being the primary organization in 7th that attempted to do any thing to at least try and salvage it at a competitive level. GW back then was probably at it's most unresponsive/forge the narrative we don't give a F.

They aren't perfect though and now that GW is back I do wish that GW would take the reigns back a bit more. The ITC missions changes how the game is played and what lists and options are good.

Ignoring the law talk above, 100% this. ITC was needed (not really but I'll throw a bone here for people who want to play competitively and somehow ended up picking Warhammer as their game of choice) when GW had no interest in anything competitive. Now though ITC isn't needed beyond tracking stats (again, I point to AOS where they do not adjust anything) and need to take a big step backward from trying to dictate how competitive 40k is run since their changes make it virtually a separate game entirely and causes a schism.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, I'm not sure how else to say this:

Cheating by mistake and cheating by intent are both cheating and should be given a warning. This ain't hobby night at the local garage. This is a major tournament. Accidently nudge the model? Warning. Misinterpret the rule regarding distance?. Accidently pick up the wrong dice? You're kicked out, and flagged.

Nobody would ever compete. Ever. I know I wouldn't, that stuff happens in 95% of my games, and every other game of 40k I have ever witnessed.

Which is the ultimate goal. Sabotage and de-legitimatize are the main motivations. They know their suggestions are impractical and absurd. They might as well demand Judge Dredd walk the hall shooting people.

No one has asked that I monitor the halls yet, but Rodney the Wiener Dog has volunteered to patrol and diligently hoover any snacks or chips that fall on the ground.

happy_inquisitor wrote:
...the requirement to prove intent is wildly overstated by a lot of lay commentators...

Agreed, but we are talking about a situation where a crime is literally the same thing as not a crime, the only difference being intent.

happy_inquisitor wrote:
Applying this to a 40K situation if you gain an unfair advantage from clearly demonstrated "mistakes" it is reasonable to infer that this was your intent and apply a suitable reprimand or punishment such as a yellow/red card.

Again, no. Just because I made a mistake that happened to benefit me does not automatically mean that I intended to do it.

happy_inquisitor wrote:
[A reasonable fear of detection - i.e. your indiscretions will be noticed and acted upon - is a far better deterrent than extreme sanctions for infrequent or improbably detection. It is far better to have a system where most problems are found and acted upon with a reasonable punishment than one where very occasionally a transgression is harshly punished.

Which is exactly what I've been espousing all along. What I meant when I said the "fear factor" doesn't work, is catching one or two "probable" cheaters and figuratively hanging them in the town square as an example to others. That isn't going to do crap when it is so hard to differentiate intentional cheating from honest mistakes.

Karol wrote:
Maybe in the US it is like that, here the only lowering of sentance if if A your someone important B your a woman. If you kill someone with an ax, you get 8 years, go out after 4. If you kill someone in a car accident while drunk you get 8 years and go out after 4. The judge more or less has to hate you on a personal level for the sentencing be out of wack. Or it is one of those wierd moments where one of the sides is the general attorney as a civilian, but as general attorney he assigns his case to be done in the place where his party picked all the judges. That is more or less the only times I can think of courts or federal goverment carrying if you did something on purpose or not. Heck if it comes to important people they don't even care if you really are the wronged side or not. We have a guy being trailed after he reported that the head of the ruling party, who is also his family, didn't pay him 300k euro for work done. And the trail, after he showed tapes, conctracts signed etc is that he tried to mug the party leader.

I don't know how your legal system can be so backwards that you only get 8 years for murdering someone with an axe, and yet simultaneously have no sentence adjustments for circumstances or motive.

I can't believe this thread is still going.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, I'm not sure how else to say this:

Cheating by mistake and cheating by intent are both cheating and should be given a warning. This ain't hobby night at the local garage. This is a major tournament. Accidently nudge the model? Warning. Misinterpret the rule regarding distance?. Accidently pick up the wrong dice? You're kicked out, and flagged.

Nobody would ever compete. Ever. I know I wouldn't, that stuff happens in 95% of my games, and every other game of 40k I have ever witnessed.

Which is the ultimate goal. Sabotage and de-legitimatize are the main motivations. They know their suggestions are impractical and absurd. They might as well demand Judge Dredd walk the hall shooting people.

No one has asked that I monitor the halls yet, but Rodney the Wiener Dog has volunteered to patrol and diligently hoover any snacks or chips that fall on the ground.

I for one welcome our new Wiener Dog overlords. As to the whole no one would ever compete thing other game that have a zero tolerance policy still have large events where people compete I'm pretty sure 40k will go unhindered. A zero tolerance policy will be good for the game. Will there be some people that are just new getting game losses for making mistakes? Probably, they will then learn and get better because of it. As for people saying the system will be gamed. Awe yes the big bad gaming boogy man that everyone always claims will ruin every new rule that never actually appears to happen. Game needs timers to address the slow play issue? BUT MAH OPPONENT WILL JUST GAME THE SYSTEM!!!! Clocks are implemented to a fairly large degree of success with no one actually gaming the system. Also for the people saying we need judges for every table. No we don't. Just enough to watch the top tables and a few roamers to handle the odd random dispute at the rest of the tables.

Racerguy180 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
[spoiler]If GW actually buys into the tourney ruleset and leaves the rest of the game alone, hopefully it will quell the whining from the competitive side about balance & the narrative/open about WAAC/TFG screwing with the game.

Your open disdain for competitive players is so refreshing.

Open and Narrative are basically wargame RPG games, without the compelling RPG elements.

But painters will keep putting models on the table and asking for praise, GW loves you for buying every new sculpt you never needed.

and it matters why? Just cuz I may not like a type/style of play doesn't mean I hate those whom enjoy a different version of the same game. Last time I checked, we all like 40k! Right? I am at least trying to offer suggestions to help, what are you doing to better the situation?

I just want stuff that is needed for "competitive" to stop being the default game mode. I may have zero interest in playing in a tournament, but I would like it if all (types of)players had positive experiences with the game. If that means GW needs to buckle down and craft a tourney pack that actually works, then so be it. Maybe use the upcoming survey to give some constructive criticism?

This would be fine, but here you are in a Competitive thread proselyting your brand of where the game should be. Perhaps go away? I'll stay out of Your discussions on what beer works best in the 9ths hour of the third round, and you leave the competitive threads to competitive people?

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The ITC has a lot of influence and good will due to it being the primary organization in 7th that attempted to do any thing to at least try and salvage it at a competitive level. GW back then was probably at it's most unresponsive/forge the narrative we don't give a F.

They aren't perfect though and now that GW is back I do wish that GW would take the reigns back a bit more. The ITC missions changes how the game is played and what lists and options are good.

I mean each tournament, league and store changes how the game is played and what lists are good. There are tournaments famous for light terrain, some for custom missions and some for light rules changes. If someone doesn't like ITC missions or what its events do to games then start your own events or don't attend ITC ones. Id say that the fact the ITC guys run the most popular event in the world shows that Its one of the most if not the most popular way to play 40k competitively and good for the game the way it is. What does it even look like having GW "taking the reigns back".... "hey I know you guys run the largest tournament in the world and manage the largest league in the world but here is exactly how you should do it and if you don't we are going to be really mad at you".

Asmodios wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The ITC has a lot of influence and good will due to it being the primary organization in 7th that attempted to do any thing to at least try and salvage it at a competitive level. GW back then was probably at it's most unresponsive/forge the narrative we don't give a F.

They aren't perfect though and now that GW is back I do wish that GW would take the reigns back a bit more. The ITC missions changes how the game is played and what lists and options are good.

I mean each tournament, league and store changes how the game is played and what lists are good. There are tournaments famous for light terrain, some for custom missions and some for light rules changes. If someone doesn't like ITC missions or what its events do to games then start your own events or don't attend ITC ones. Id say that the fact the ITC guys run the most popular event in the world shows that Its one of the most if not the most popular way to play 40k competitively and good for the game the way it is. What does it even look like having GW "taking the reigns back".... "hey I know you guys run the largest tournament in the world and manage the largest league in the world but here is exactly how you should do it and if you don't we are going to be really mad at you".

Uhh.. that's what normally happens when you have a company handling tournaments, yes. They put out a pack with rules for it, and you run it with that if you want to be an "official" tournament. You're equating popularity with being good. GW should make their own tournament guidelines like they did before, and mandate that any official RTT/GT use it.

Wayniac wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The ITC has a lot of influence and good will due to it being the primary organization in 7th that attempted to do any thing to at least try and salvage it at a competitive level. GW back then was probably at it's most unresponsive/forge the narrative we don't give a F.

They aren't perfect though and now that GW is back I do wish that GW would take the reigns back a bit more. The ITC missions changes how the game is played and what lists and options are good.

I mean each tournament, league and store changes how the game is played and what lists are good. There are tournaments famous for light terrain, some for custom missions and some for light rules changes. If someone doesn't like ITC missions or what its events do to games then start your own events or don't attend ITC ones. Id say that the fact the ITC guys run the most popular event in the world shows that Its one of the most if not the most popular way to play 40k competitively and good for the game the way it is. What does it even look like having GW "taking the reigns back".... "hey I know you guys run the largest tournament in the world and manage the largest league in the world but here is exactly how you should do it and if you don't we are going to be really mad at you".

Uhh.. that's what normally happens when you have a company handling tournaments, yes. They put out a pack with rules for it, and you run it with that if you want to be an "official" tournament. You're equating popularity with being good. GW should make their own tournament guidelines like they did before, and mandate that any official RTT/GT use it.

So GW who ran its tournament scene into the ground is going to go to the most popular tournament in the entire history of 40k and say "hey we are going to excommunicate you if you don't play the way we want you to play".... just gonna say im glad your not making business decisions for GW. They already have their own tournament bracket that's not nearly as popular despite being GW "official" and the last thing they should do is "take the reigns" from the most successfully run league/tournament in the world

All GW has to do to close FLG down is put out a Competitive Play pack that is Better to play, More enjoyable to play, More competitive to play, and more rewarding to play.

Ohh and convince all the competitive play people they aren’t going to crap on them again.

FLG would fold very quickly. Infact they would be the biggest cheer leaders of GW in that event.

They have. Just people don't seem to realize that small imbalances are part of the game and want to remove them, then complain that things are OP because they removed part of what helps to fix them

Once again, the GW GTs don't use ITC and seem to do pretty well and have wildly different results to ITC events. "Oh but its not as popular!" it's also localized to Nottingham and not having events all over since ITC isn't one single thing.

There isn't a need for ITC anymore as it currently exists for 40k. It has no issue following the same rules as everyone else for AOS, and should do the same for 40k.

Wayniac wrote:
They have. Just people don't seem to realize that small imbalances are part of the game and want to remove them, then complain that things are OP because they removed part of what helps to fix them

Once again, the GW GTs don't use ITC and seem to do pretty well and have wildly different results to ITC events. "Oh but its not as popular!" it's also localized to Nottingham and not having events all over since ITC isn't one single thing.

There isn't a need for ITC anymore as it currently exists for 40k. It has no issue following the same rules as everyone else for AOS, and should do the same for 40k.

once again they are their own independent organization and can run their events however they like. If you don't like ITC then just don't compete in it. It's funny how you blame location as the reason GW events aren't more popular it's not like they have hundreds of stores all over the world yet somehow their events are less popular than a couple of guys out in California with a single location

Wayniac wrote:
They have. Just people don't seem to realize that small imbalances are part of the game and want to remove them, then complain that things are OP because they removed part of what helps to fix them

Once again, the GW GTs don't use ITC and seem to do pretty well and have wildly different results to ITC events. "Oh but its not as popular!" it's also localized to Nottingham and not having events all over since ITC isn't one single thing.

There isn't a need for ITC anymore as it currently exists for 40k. It has no issue following the same rules as everyone else for AOS, and should do the same for 40k.

I feel that any place you see people having a choice, they don't seem to Choose the GW system. Saying This or that is doing when is places that don't have choices is misleading. I like in the western US. My choices are ITC. I've seen maybe 3 tourney in the last year that weren't ITC. One of them failed due to lack of attendance.

Also the goals are different. ITC is designed to work as hard as possible to build to be fair. GW's missions are worked as hard as possible to be Interesting. I think both succeed.

Reemule wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
[spoiler]If GW actually buys into the tourney ruleset and leaves the rest of the game alone, hopefully it will quell the whining from the competitive side about balance & the narrative/open about WAAC/TFG screwing with the game.

Your open disdain for competitive players is so refreshing.

Open and Narrative are basically wargame RPG games, without the compelling RPG elements.

But painters will keep putting models on the table and asking for praise, GW loves you for buying every new sculpt you never needed.

and it matters why? Just cuz I may not like a type/style of play doesn't mean I hate those whom enjoy a different version of the same game. Last time I checked, we all like 40k! Right? I am at least trying to offer suggestions to help, what are you doing to better the situation?

I just want stuff that is needed for "competitive" to stop being the default game mode. I may have zero interest in playing in a tournament, but I would like it if all (types of)players had positive experiences with the game. If that means GW needs to buckle down and craft a tourney pack that actually works, then so be it. Maybe use the upcoming survey to give some constructive criticism?

This would be fine, but here you are in a Competitive thread proselyting your brand of where the game should be. Perhaps go away? I'll stay out of Your discussions on what beer works best in the 9ths hour of the third round, and you leave the competitive threads to competitive people?

I am for sure not saying anything to the effect of preaching. All I have done is point out some glaring deficiencies in how the game is played within the current tourney system.
Who knows, maybe if GW get it right there might be even more people for you to play against and even bigger tournaments? is that not something you want?

Wayniac wrote:
They have. Just people don't seem to realize that small imbalances are part of the game and want to remove them, then complain that things are OP because they removed part of what helps to fix them

Once again, the GW GTs don't use ITC and seem to do pretty well and have wildly different results to ITC events. "Oh but its not as popular!" it's also localized to Nottingham and not having events all over since ITC isn't one single thing.

There isn't a need for ITC anymore as it currently exists for 40k. It has no issue following the same rules as everyone else for AOS, and should do the same for 40k.

The GW missions are not completely local to WHW. My local store runs them, as does my local club when they get round to running the occasional tournament. That probably gets replicated across the country but this is all local stuff that you will hardly ever see on blogs/Youtube channels etc. There is a grass-roots level of play using those missions that you would never know about and a lot of those players turning up to GT heats have plenty of competitive games under their belts before they walk through the doors of WHW.

In Europe the players who take it seriously tend to be looking for ETC places so there is another circuit of ETC style singles tournaments where they try to establish their position to make it into their national teams. Traditionally the larger independent tournaments cater largely to the ETC crowd and are the ones getting advertised more widely. Despite all that it is probably the case that as many GW missions get played in competitive environments in the UK as ETC missions.

As for cheating, well if feedback and rumour is anything to go by the GW event staff are still not entirely on top of the problem where their events are concerned. I would say that the FLG people have jumped out of bottom place for "handling issues" into a very strong position. Similarly the ETC had some awful issues with unsporting play a few years back and now have a pretty firm judging system in place to deal with it.

Can't believe this is still going and this is still happening.

I'm sure 100m runners don't intend to false start, however they are DQ if they do. Want to know what they should do in that instance? Tighten up their gak so it doesn't happen again.

If you constantly make 'mistake' the problem is you, and other players shouldn't have to tolerate it in a big GT format. You need to tighten up your gameplay and accept you will be punished if you don't...

Once you guys do that, we can focus solely on intentional cheating.

w1zard wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:
...the requirement to prove intent is wildly overstated by a lot of lay commentators...

Agreed, but we are talking about a situation where a crime is literally the same thing as not a crime, the only difference being intent.

Which is why I also said that I believe there should be an in-game penalty such as a 1VP deduction for mistake-in-your-own-favour.

You try to use the Raven move-shoot rule on a Knight in a Superheavy Auxiliary and a judge gets called. 1VP penalty for not knowing your own rules and attempting to play it wrong. Judge should make a note. If the rule is unclear in the opinion of the judge then it is no penalty to anyone, judges are there to help by solving ambiguous situations. If it is right there in the codex then it is a straight penalty - no question of intent need arise it is a fixed point penalty.

Do it again later in the tournament - 1VP penalty for getting it wrong and probably yellow card for intent having already been reminded of that exact same rule.

Make enough different mistakes to lose a game, tough luck you should not win games if you are that incompetent. Make the same mistake in multiple games - yellow/red card system comes into play because you can only claim to be ignorant once.

Some system like that is needed because i think most players who go to tournaments have met the guy who just tries it on all the time - constantly making mistakes in their own favour on the basis that if even 1/5 of them slip through the net they are still getting a significant game advantage out of it.

Other "mistakes" such as the water bottle thing or moving wound markers etc. - the judge will have to rule on intent and issue warnings according to their best judgement. If a player cannot live with that then they should not be taking part in any competitive event of any kind, we all know that umpires/referees make mistakes but we also know that only by having them there making decisions can we have a fair competitive event at all.

Reemule wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
They have. Just people don't seem to realize that small imbalances are part of the game and want to remove them, then complain that things are OP because they removed part of what helps to fix them

Once again, the GW GTs don't use ITC and seem to do pretty well and have wildly different results to ITC events. "Oh but its not as popular!" it's also localized to Nottingham and not having events all over since ITC isn't one single thing.

There isn't a need for ITC anymore as it currently exists for 40k. It has no issue following the same rules as everyone else for AOS, and should do the same for 40k.

I feel that any place you see people having a choice, they don't seem to Choose the GW system. Saying This or that is doing when is places that don't have choices is misleading. I like in the western US. My choices are ITC. I've seen maybe 3 tourney in the last year that weren't ITC. One of them failed due to lack of attendance.

Also the goals are different. ITC is designed to work as hard as possible to build to be fair. GW's missions are worked as hard as possible to be Interesting. I think both succeed.

Europe largely plays with CA18, ITC is pretty much unknown here.
It's just that games in Europe don't get the media coverage that US games get, so it makes it look like only ITC games exist.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Can't believe this is still going and this is still happening.

I'm sure 100m runners don't intend to false start, however they are DQ if they do. Want to know what they should do in that instance? Tighten up their gak so it doesn't happen again.

If you constantly make 'mistake' the problem is you, and other players shouldn't have to tolerate it in a big GT format. You need to tighten up your gameplay and accept you will be punished if you don't...

Once you guys do that, we can focus solely on intentional cheating.

A huge number of people go to these events just for a fun and social weekend away playing their hobby and not to show their uber skillz. I doubt that many % wise are there with any expectation of really competing, and that there may well be a good number for whom this is one of their few get out of being an adult/parenting and go play at toys soldiers sessions in a year, and simply don't have time to get down every rule and interaction.

The people running these events usually seem to be after running an event that is open to all who want to have a fun weekend playing their hobby first and foremost.

Even many serious sporting events, ones with mega bucks involved, do not go straight to a DQ without a 2nd chance. Points deducted, free kicks, switch overs etc. The 100m event is an outlier, not the normal, and even that instant DQ is a recent rule. For the first 40 years of my life it was not instant DQ.

If there are those who think this is some mega competitive thing and straight DQ should be the way forward then maybe it would be better to rethink what sort of event you are running, are you really only after those who think it is a serious highly competitive sporting type event or are you after a big gaming event to attract as many people who enjoy their hobby as you can fit in your venue. If its the former then maybe the sort of people who organise these things need to move to some form of league/grading system, which can act as a filter on who you expect to take it that seriously. Or maybe something like the GW GT heats - you have to get through some more earlier heat event to get an invite to the big day, at which point the DQs kick in if you accept the invite.

Please stop comparing the casuals with the top 8. This is an obvious red herring that in no way addresses the actual argument. For obvious reasons, the game is not based around casuals. It's based around the top results of most major tournaments. So when those top results are skewed by obvious cheating, it tends to cause ramifications in the meta.

For obvious reasons, the game is not based around casuals

Since when!

puree wrote:

For obvious reasons, the game is not based around casuals

Since when!

The only people who think like that, are the ones who have never tried playing the game differently and have a very myopic view of how others play.

I'm pretty sure GW doesnt play the game like a tournatment. If they did, we wouldn't need to have this discussion(since they'd have a tight balanced ruleset)!

Racerguy180 wrote:

puree wrote:

For obvious reasons, the game is not based around casuals

Since when!

The only people who think like that, are the ones who have never tried playing the game differently and have a very myopic view of how others play.

I'm pretty sure GW doesnt play the game like a tournatment. If they did, we wouldn't need to have this discussion(since they'd have a tight balanced ruleset)!

GW doesn't. Just the players have perverted the game to be a tournament game, GW has done some concession to it and now it gets treated like a super serious competitive game.

Wayniac wrote:
GW doesn't. Just the players have perverted the game to be a tournament game, GW has done some concession to it and now it gets treated like a super serious competitive game.

Tournament play is hardly "perverting" the game, and all of the things that make and have made 40k a poor competitive game are just as bad for narrative/casual/whatever games. The only thing that has changed is that the popularity of tournament 40k has, to at least some degree, forced GW to stop using "WE ARENT TOURNAMENTS BEER AND PRETZELS" as an excuse for poor game design.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puree wrote:

For obvious reasons, the game is not based around casuals

Since when!

I disagree that GW ignores casual players, because they clearly don't, but they should because casual players tend to be bad at the game and don't provide useful balance information. A player who doesn't invest much time into the game and doesn't have much skill isn't going to have much of a grasp of strategy and the difference between losing because of their own mistakes and losing because of poor balance. And they certainly aren't going to be able to evaluate a metagame and identify the balance issues driving it.

 Peregrine wrote:
all of the things that make and have made 40k a poor competitive game are just as bad for narrative/casual/whatever games.

That is quite patently hyperbole. Stuff competitive gamers care about can have absolutely no relevance to narrative/casual/whatever gamers, and being bad for competitive gamers does not mean it must be for the other group.

A player who doesn't invest much time into the game and doesn't have much skill isn't going to have much of a grasp of strategy and the difference between losing because of their own mistakes and losing because of poor balance.

What a bizarre statement. If you have little skill then you have little skill no matter what, and if you invest little time in 40k then so what. I know plenty of people who play 40k/AoS and almost all of them play a number of other what we might call more grognard wargames and have done for 30-40 odd years - they have a plenty good enough grasp of strategy and tactics and 40k is hardly some mystical game that you have to play several times a week for years to grasp the strategy and tactics.


That said, discussion of whether the game is balanced has nothing to do with punishing the casual players with a DQ for a mistake at an event clearly aimed as an 'all are welcome' to a weekend of gaming.