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tneva82 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
The game would be infinitely easier to balance without faction specific stratagems, but it would also get kinda boring. They tend to add a lot of flavor and pop to certain armies.

Game managed just fine before they were added to the game though...Without being as unscalable as strategems by their nature are(along with encouraging deathstar type of units)

Haha, remember when you actually had to pay points for red paint on Orks or a better armour save? You'd think being able to upgrade your Orks in the direction you want would make the game more balanced... Nope, just give it to everyone for free!

Why not just make it simple and just make all orc vehicles move as if they were painted red? Why add another layer of points that encourages souping, and hurts armies that can't do it or which are bad it, be it because they are just bad, or because they had little to no interactions with other armies.

tneva82 wrote:


Daemon summoning however has so hefty penalties that makes daemon summoning rather weak. You lose all your traits etc and have to have character sitting duck to bring them in.

The tides are changing on that. The Enchantress makes it easier and the new tick seems to lean that way as well.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Daemon summoning however has so hefty penalties that makes daemon summoning rather weak. You lose all your traits etc and have to have character sitting duck to bring them in.

The tides are changing on that. The Enchantress makes it easier and the new tick seems to lean that way as well.

Yeah, seeing a list at LVO that included a huge chunk of points for summoning do very well was quite surprising!

 BoomWolf wrote:
Sure, fluff-wise its pretty good.

But is it healthy for the game? hell no.

This strat should be a 2CP at the very least. maybe even 3.

Too early to tell.

What does a Castellan list drop to make an assassin fit?
How much CP are people going to invest in these that takes away from Castellans?
How common will 3 Vindicares be? Are dark reapers going to keep them at bay?

Karol wrote:

Apple fox 771623 10351022 wrote:

It takes a really long time to get around the galexy, Calling up and getting a Culexus when they have spot a psyker would be a waste of time. It would likely be months before one could even turn up.
Its also another thing the imperium gets that no one else can, Farseers look into the future So why not being able to pick units to better fit your opponent as well or Orks retrofitting units as they go.

So its not particularly extra fluffy to be able to skip what would be planing and deployment of resources.
If this was part of a side board like structure, it would probably be good for the game. But i do not hold very high the design of 40k to pull though with that.

Maybe the assasin temples have almost as good precogs as GK have. GK now in advance when an attack is going to happen so they have send a brother hood sometimes years in advcance to intercept the right target. Same could be happening here.

Or...get this. Assassins are part of Execution Forces. All four are there to begin with. All that changes is which one is deployed from orbit via drop pod.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Karol wrote:

Apple fox 771623 10351022 wrote:

It takes a really long time to get around the galexy, Calling up and getting a Culexus when they have spot a psyker would be a waste of time. It would likely be months before one could even turn up.
Its also another thing the imperium gets that no one else can, Farseers look into the future So why not being able to pick units to better fit your opponent as well or Orks retrofitting units as they go.

So its not particularly extra fluffy to be able to skip what would be planing and deployment of resources.
If this was part of a side board like structure, it would probably be good for the game. But i do not hold very high the design of 40k to pull though with that.

Maybe the assasin temples have almost as good precogs as GK have. GK now in advance when an attack is going to happen so they have send a brother hood sometimes years in advcance to intercept the right target. Same could be happening here.

Or...get this. Assassins are part of Execution Forces. All four are there to begin with. All that changes is which one is deployed from orbit via drop pod.

Why do not all factions get such a rule where applicable. Craftworld Eldar operate just like this, dark Eldar, tyranids and space marines all would to some degree have units that could.
Not to mention the fluff was covered by other stalth rules to begin with.

Which faction would not have units in 40k that could not operate under these style of rules, it’s a potential rule nightmare and I do not think it’s worth the weak fluff to support it. Maybe GW will actually follow through and give other factions access to such things, probably won’t.
As said above, this would be a positive to the game if GW would think passed this one instance.

The new assassins are obviously fantastic, but i can only think of one faction that will really be able to ally them in and take full advantage. Cough, obvious, cough.

Honestly if I weren't already points heavy with my Deathwatch as is...

Apple fox 771623 10351471 wrote:
Why do not all factions get such a rule where applicable. Craftworld Eldar operate just like this, dark Eldar, tyranids and space marines all would to some degree have units that could.
Not to mention the fluff was covered by other stalth rules to begin with.

Which faction would not have units in 40k that could not operate under these style of rules, it’s a potential rule nightmare and I do not think it’s worth the weak fluff to support it. Maybe GW will actually follow through and give other factions access to such things, probably won’t.
As said above, this would be a positive to the game if GW would think passed this one instance.

But eldar do not operate the same way. From what I understand their visions are at best open ended, and farseers oftern don't interpret the same ones in the same ways. GK precogs are unfailable and are always right, and there is no vogueness in them.

I actually wish there was more sideboarding to 40K - especially if the "sideboard" points was something you had to bring in as reserves.

Having a fixed army, with no way to modify it once you get to the table kind of annoys me as you're at the mercy of hoping you've brought the "right" list - which the game so heavily depends on.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Your list should be your list. It should be made with the meta in mind and at most a rough idea of what faction your opponents might have. I should not be able to look at my opponents list and then a minute before the game starts say hmm took a bunch of xyz, slot in relevant countermeasures.

The assassins are specialized units and when you take a unit that is that specialized you should run the risk of your opponent not taking things that will play to that unit's strengths.


The fact that IOM super friends is the last army that needed another ace option that gives it a one up is also relevant.

Summoning has been in 8th for like 2 years.

Karol wrote:

Apple fox 771623 10351471 wrote:
Why do not all factions get such a rule where applicable. Craftworld Eldar operate just like this, dark Eldar, tyranids and space marines all would to some degree have units that could.
Not to mention the fluff was covered by other stalth rules to begin with.

Which faction would not have units in 40k that could not operate under these style of rules, it’s a potential rule nightmare and I do not think it’s worth the weak fluff to support it. Maybe GW will actually follow through and give other factions access to such things, probably won’t.
As said above, this would be a positive to the game if GW would think passed this one instance.

But eldar do not operate the same way. From what I understand their visions are at best open ended, and farseers oftern don't interpret the same ones in the same ways. GK precogs are unfailable and are always right, and there is no vogueness in them.

This actually remind me about how inconsistent GW can be with there narrative, the GK are perfect and pure beyond even the space marines. Nothing can be wrong.
A defining trait of farseers is inconsistent at best, and nearing uselessness at worst.
So why cannot gray knights use similar rules

For farseers the last I read it was like following threads, they follow likely futures, that can change an diverge at points. It actually puts a interesting point, the way it works for Eldar is in direct contradiction to GK. One of them should be impossible within the way it gets defined.
Mind you, that was introduced in the ward codex? I can safely say that writing basically broke my love for 40k

And I think this is why rules like the assassins are such a down for me, rather than ad a new dynamic. It will ether be forgot about, or a powerful new thing for half the players to play with and the other half left wandering when they get a turn.

Don’t get me wrong, I like the looks of the Assassins, but I don’t think I’d consider fielding them outside a tournament venue unless I was using a very specific list idea, like Scion Battalion, Inquisition Vanguard, and a battalion of that Inquistor’s respective militant order. I would have to go all in on the special forces feel to justify using one. Let alone buying one for 32 USD.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, my TS army is now officially dead now that every imperial player has a pocket assassin that would be geared into a Culexus.

Guess its time to play Tau again.
Not sure they are not equally punked by this though...

If you are not IoM you are having a very bad day once this ruleset drops.
The ability to easily switch in any assassin you needs for a mere 1CP (and reserving the cost, but that's normal) is brutal. whatever strategy the opponent has, you got a clear counter,

Not at least that you are a GK player. In which case you are equally screwed.

They should have rolled these guys into a combo Inquisition/Grey Knights codex. “You want to run Assassins? Lol well you need to take these worthless GK or daemonhosts first”.

But this release demonstrates in so many ways why Soup has a negative effect on the game. Imbalance, cherry-picking, faction bias...you’ve got it all right here, folks.

 greyknight12 wrote:
But this release demonstrates in so many ways why Soup has a negative effect on the game. Imbalance, cherry-picking, faction bias...you’ve got it all right here, folks.

Assassins are probably not the best example of that, given that they've been an allied unit in every single edition of 40k

 greyknight12 wrote:


But this release demonstrates in so many ways why Soup has a negative effect on the game. Imbalance, cherry-picking, faction bias...you’ve got it all right here, folks.

Again - this affects the lists that IoM can take, too. This isn't just one faction getting all the benefits and seeing none of the consequences.

This will break Grey knights further. Every imperial list will have an assassin slot, which will be a Cullexus against GKs. One model to turn off an army at the snap of the fingers.

 greyknight12 wrote:
They should have rolled these guys into a combo Inquisition/Grey Knights codex. “You want to run Assassins? Lol well you need to take these worthless GK or daemonhosts first”.

But this release demonstrates in so many ways why Soup has a negative effect on the game. Imbalance, cherry-picking, faction bias...you’ve got it all right here, folks.

Yes because armies should have units so bad you're forced into taking units from other codices to do those jobs. Ya know, allies are clearly a problem and not the crap internal and external balancing of mono armies in the first place.

I like the idea behind this but for 85 points and a single cp having a tailored in assassin just seems too strong.... Oh I'm facing thousand sons this game, good thing i left those 85 points out. Im thinking 2-3 cp plus the points is most likely more balanced at 1 cp it just seems like its too obvious of a take

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:


But this release demonstrates in so many ways why Soup has a negative effect on the game. Imbalance, cherry-picking, faction bias...you’ve got it all right here, folks.

Again - this affects the lists that IoM can take, too. This isn't just one faction getting all the benefits and seeing none of the consequences.

Exactly. This harms soup just as much as it helps it.

Asmodios wrote:
I like the idea behind this but for 85 points and a single cp having a tailored in assassin just seems too strong.... Oh I'm facing thousand sons this game, good thing i left those 85 points out. Im thinking 2-3 cp plus the points is most likely more balanced at 1 cp it just seems like its too obvious of a take

Like I already said, the easiest way to balance that is to make the Strategem only accessible if you have an Inquisitor or Rogue Trader as your Warlord. Bam, done.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
I like the idea behind this but for 85 points and a single cp having a tailored in assassin just seems too strong.... Oh I'm facing thousand sons this game, good thing i left those 85 points out. Im thinking 2-3 cp plus the points is most likely more balanced at 1 cp it just seems like its too obvious of a take

Like I already said, the easiest way to balance that is to make the Strategem only accessible if you have an Inquisitor or Rogue Trader as your Warlord. Bam, done.

Yeah, that seems like it would work well to.... as it is in this leak it is just a no brainer and I'm not sure why you wouldn't include this in your list from a competitive standpoint

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
I like the idea behind this but for 85 points and a single cp having a tailored in assassin just seems too strong.... Oh I'm facing thousand sons this game, good thing i left those 85 points out. Im thinking 2-3 cp plus the points is most likely more balanced at 1 cp it just seems like its too obvious of a take

Like I already said, the easiest way to balance that is to make the Strategem only accessible if you have an Inquisitor or Rogue Trader as your Warlord. Bam, done.

Thats not as much balancing it as removing it from the game, at least until Rogue Traders and Inquisitors become genuine options to be the Warlords of a mixed Imperial Army (And that tbh would be ultra cool)

Asmodios wrote:
I like the idea behind this but for 85 points and a single cp having a tailored in assassin just seems too strong.... Oh I'm facing thousand sons this game, good thing i left those 85 points out. Im thinking 2-3 cp plus the points is most likely more balanced at 1 cp it just seems like its too obvious of a take

All you're doing is making it "Astra Militarum only" with that cost. Although these clearly benefit AM the most.

 Galas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
I like the idea behind this but for 85 points and a single cp having a tailored in assassin just seems too strong.... Oh I'm facing thousand sons this game, good thing i left those 85 points out. Im thinking 2-3 cp plus the points is most likely more balanced at 1 cp it just seems like its too obvious of a take

Like I already said, the easiest way to balance that is to make the Strategem only accessible if you have an Inquisitor or Rogue Trader as your Warlord. Bam, done.

Thats not as much balancing it as removing it from the game, at least until Rogue Traders and Inquisitors become genuine options to be the Warlords of a mixed Imperial Army (And that tbh would be ultra cool)

I mean, at minimum Inquisition is gonna get a codex at some point. I don't consider that to really be an issue.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
I like the idea behind this but for 85 points and a single cp having a tailored in assassin just seems too strong.... Oh I'm facing thousand sons this game, good thing i left those 85 points out. Im thinking 2-3 cp plus the points is most likely more balanced at 1 cp it just seems like its too obvious of a take

Like I already said, the easiest way to balance that is to make the Strategem only accessible if you have an Inquisitor or Rogue Trader as your Warlord. Bam, done.

Yeah, that seems like it would work well to.... as it is in this leak it is just a no brainer and I'm not sure why you wouldn't include this in your list from a competitive standpoint

Agreed, but mostly from a fluff point it would make a LOT more sense too.

A.T. wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
But this release demonstrates in so many ways why Soup has a negative effect on the game. Imbalance, cherry-picking, faction bias...you’ve got it all right here, folks.

Assassins are probably not the best example of that, given that they've been an allied unit in every single edition of 40k

Well, in 4th ed they were in Codex: Daemonhunters, 5th they were in GK codex and 6th the same...7th created their own codex and then you could take them as allies elsewhere. Death Cult Assassins were a little more prolific, but not the big 4.

As far as it hurting soup because other soup lists can also take them...lol. It’s like saying Hellblasters hurt space marines because other space marines can take them too.
The only way this hurts Imperial soup lists is that every Imperium player is going to have a version of the poison cup scene from “The Princess Bride” whenever deciding which Assassin to take against each other.

chnmmr wrote:
This will break Grey knights further. Every imperial list will have an assassin slot, which will be a Cullexus against GKs. One model to turn off an army at the snap of the fingers.

Grey Knights can pick up a Vindicare and snipe the Culexus, soo...I think Thousand Sons will struggle a little more despite the +6" range.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

chnmmr wrote:
This will break Grey knights further. Every imperial list will have an assassin slot, which will be a Cullexus against GKs. One model to turn off an army at the snap of the fingers.

Grey Knights can pick up a Vindicare and snipe the Culexus, soo...I think Thousand Sons will struggle a little more despite the +6" range.

Thousand Sons need to be made to function more without constant Smite to be fair. A small rework of internal balance would cover that, of course.