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If I bring a culexus and vs a psyker army, then that player is at a disadvantage. Now everyone is at a disadvantage its almost fairer.

And as for the cost, it was the same before, take a single assassin and pay the -1CP tax. This does the same but changes how we select it. So not overly cheap compared to what we had before. One assassin wont break the game.

And when looking at new stratagems, many armies had to wait before their stratagems were release, this is virtually no different. Do GSC get more expensive now they have a new codex? No. 3 out of 4 assassins got a price increase to make up for it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

chnmmr wrote:
This will break Grey knights further. Every imperial list will have an assassin slot, which will be a Cullexus against GKs. One model to turn off an army at the snap of the fingers.

Grey Knights can pick up a Vindicare and snipe the Culexus, soo...I think Thousand Sons will struggle a little more despite the +6" range.

How does the Vindicare always hit on a 2+ work against the Culexus who needs 6's to hit?

Slagmar wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

chnmmr wrote:
This will break Grey knights further. Every imperial list will have an assassin slot, which will be a Cullexus against GKs. One model to turn off an army at the snap of the fingers.

Grey Knights can pick up a Vindicare and snipe the Culexus, soo...I think Thousand Sons will struggle a little more despite the +6" range.

How does the Vindicare always hit on a 2+ work against the Culexus who needs 6's to hit?

It always hits on a 2. The Culexus modifies BS, but the Vindicare doesn't care about BS. A Vindi will wipe a Culexus pretty easily.

Slagmar wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

chnmmr wrote:
This will break Grey knights further. Every imperial list will have an assassin slot, which will be a Cullexus against GKs. One model to turn off an army at the snap of the fingers.

Grey Knights can pick up a Vindicare and snipe the Culexus, soo...I think Thousand Sons will struggle a little more despite the +6" range.

How does the Vindicare always hit on a 2+ work against the Culexus who needs 6's to hit?

He hits on a 2+ regardless of his BS. The Culexus changes BS/WS. So the Vindicare will still hit on a 2+. And wound on a 2+. So a Vindicare can easily deal with a Culexus. Maybe not in a single turn, though.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Maybe not in a single turn, though.

Probably highly likely with double tap and headshot.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Maybe not in a single turn, though.

Probably highly likely with double tap and headshot.

Double tap must be different targets. Haven't done math but I'm betting averages 2 turns

Audustum wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Maybe not in a single turn, though.

Probably highly likely with double tap and headshot.

Double tap must be different targets. Haven't done math but I'm betting averages 2 turns

Oh right - depends on how lucky you get with your wounding roll and headshot then.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:


But this release demonstrates in so many ways why Soup has a negative effect on the game. Imbalance, cherry-picking, faction bias...you’ve got it all right here, folks.

Again - this affects the lists that IoM can take, too. This isn't just one faction getting all the benefits and seeing none of the consequences.

How does it affect anything but mirror matches though? You have to be Imperial to take assassins, nobody else can. Sure there are mono-dex armies, but only Imperial ones can take the assassins. If anything it makes soup worse since IoM gets to select which silver bullet they will use after looking at their opponent's list. Mono-dex lists aren't as well rounded as soup so the assassins will naturally be more effective.

 DominayTrix wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:


But this release demonstrates in so many ways why Soup has a negative effect on the game. Imbalance, cherry-picking, faction bias...you’ve got it all right here, folks.

Again - this affects the lists that IoM can take, too. This isn't just one faction getting all the benefits and seeing none of the consequences.

How does it affect anything but mirror matches though? You have to be Imperial to take assassins, nobody else can. Sure there are mono-dex armies, but only Imperial ones can take the assassins. If anything it makes soup worse since IoM gets to select which silver bullet they will use after looking at their opponent's list. Mono-dex lists aren't as well rounded as soup so the assassins will naturally be more effective.

Write a Castellan / Catachan list that has room for an assassin and also protects things like the priest, CCs, and straken who are crucial to its function. It doesn't matter who it's facing. It still needs to be prepared for other IoM armies with assassins and potentially up to 3 Vindicares.

And since IoM is the most common soup it's the most urgent item to address, which means other armies benefit from IoM sniping at each other.

The issue is as usual, soup having no drawbacks, rather than assassins themselves.

Good luck finding 85 pts and sometimes the CP to get that assasin to counter someone elses assasin in a GK army.
Not to mention the fact that if your opponent gets his out first, it maybe too late to save a draigo or a GM NDK, making the whole thing more of a what turn to you want to lose on, then an actual counter.

good options for low cost armies though. I can imagine someone not wanting to buy a box of recast IG cavalery and instead use a counts as assasin. Same with marines.

I do hope though that GW is going to add the rules to a CA or put them online later on. My store gets 2 WDs, makes mass use of assasins kind of a hard.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly if I weren't already points heavy with my Deathwatch as is...

my deathwatch list clocks in at about 1750 with loyal 32 allies and I am just 100% jazzed to cap that off with three assassins.

Karol wrote:
Good luck finding 85 pts and sometimes the CP to get that assasin to counter someone elses assasin in a GK army.
Not to mention the fact that if your opponent gets his out first, it maybe too late to save a draigo or a GM NDK, making the whole thing more of a what turn to you want to lose on, then an actual counter.

good options for low cost armies though. I can imagine someone not wanting to buy a box of recast IG cavalery and instead use a counts as assasin. Same with marines.

I do hope though that GW is going to add the rules to a CA or put them online later on. My store gets 2 WDs, makes mass use of assasins kind of a hard.

Ooooo, which assassin is the best to take out an assassin? Probably the vindicator I suppose.. A charging eversor should be able to deal out enough wounds with appropriate stratagems...

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Good luck finding 85 pts and sometimes the CP to get that assasin to counter someone elses assasin in a GK army.
Not to mention the fact that if your opponent gets his out first, it maybe too late to save a draigo or a GM NDK, making the whole thing more of a what turn to you want to lose on, then an actual counter.

good options for low cost armies though. I can imagine someone not wanting to buy a box of recast IG cavalery and instead use a counts as assasin. Same with marines.

I do hope though that GW is going to add the rules to a CA or put them online later on. My store gets 2 WDs, makes mass use of assasins kind of a hard.

Ooooo, which assassin is the best to take out an assassin? Probably the vindicator I suppose.. A charging eversor should be able to deal out enough wounds with appropriate stratagems...

I imagine that for the two melee-primary assassins, the best counter would be stratagems that allow you to shoot things when they deep strike at you. For a culexus, I'd think including a couple autohitting weapons would be the way to go, though any kind of thing that grants you a +1 to hit will be extremely valuable (because you hit as if you're BS6+, but all +to hit stuff still applies there so you'd be hitting him on 5s or whatever.)

TBH besides the culexus vs vindicare matchup I don't think "assassins to hunt assassins" is that great a solution. Each one has their own thing that effectively counters it (hit when you DS strats for eversor+callidus, autohit weapons for culexus, alpha strike chargers for Vindicare) but they all have a thing I'd point to as part of a good TAC list that helps effectively bring them down.

I am 100% in favor of anything that makes characters a tiny bit more risky to just plop onto the board behind a screen. I like the new assassin rules a lot and I hope we see more updates to the current flatline "assassin style units" that just don't work atm like the solitaire, lictors, etc.

the_scotsman wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Good luck finding 85 pts and sometimes the CP to get that assasin to counter someone elses assasin in a GK army.
Not to mention the fact that if your opponent gets his out first, it maybe too late to save a draigo or a GM NDK, making the whole thing more of a what turn to you want to lose on, then an actual counter.

good options for low cost armies though. I can imagine someone not wanting to buy a box of recast IG cavalery and instead use a counts as assasin. Same with marines.

I do hope though that GW is going to add the rules to a CA or put them online later on. My store gets 2 WDs, makes mass use of assasins kind of a hard.

Ooooo, which assassin is the best to take out an assassin? Probably the vindicator I suppose.. A charging eversor should be able to deal out enough wounds with appropriate stratagems...

I imagine that for the two melee-primary assassins, the best counter would be stratagems that allow you to shoot things when they deep strike at you. For a culexus, I'd think including a couple autohitting weapons would be the way to go, though any kind of thing that grants you a +1 to hit will be extremely valuable (because you hit as if you're BS6+, but all +to hit stuff still applies there so you'd be hitting him on 5s or whatever.)

TBH besides the culexus vs vindicare matchup I don't think "assassins to hunt assassins" is that great a solution. Each one has their own thing that effectively counters it (hit when you DS strats for eversor+callidus, autohit weapons for culexus, alpha strike chargers for Vindicare) but they all have a thing I'd point to as part of a good TAC list that helps effectively bring them down.

I am 100% in favor of anything that makes characters a tiny bit more risky to just plop onto the board behind a screen. I like the new assassin rules a lot and I hope we see more updates to the current flatline "assassin style units" that just don't work atm like the solitaire, lictors, etc.

Guess where the vindicare is going to be placed. (Hint: just plopped onto the board behind a screen). The whole vindicare thing is really weird. GW gave the characters short range buff auras because they are supposed to hang around units. If they were going to be played safely they would have 12" range on their auras or bigger. With 6", means that GW wants us to play the characters alongside units out in the open, since otherwise they can't buff anything. Then they go and make assassins that kill them... Then why make the characters like this in the first place?

Karol wrote:
Good luck finding 85 pts and sometimes the CP to get that assasin to counter someone elses assasin in a GK army.
Not to mention the fact that if your opponent gets his out first, it maybe too late to save a draigo or a GM NDK, making the whole thing more of a what turn to you want to lose on, then an actual counter.

good options for low cost armies though. I can imagine someone not wanting to buy a box of recast IG cavalery and instead use a counts as assasin. Same with marines.

I do hope though that GW is going to add the rules to a CA or put them online later on. My store gets 2 WDs, makes mass use of assasins kind of a hard.

An assassin is 4 strikes. Loyal 32 is also a thing.

GK are best equipped to deal with the assassin meta with a 2+ and W6. If an opponent brings a Culexus then they've wasted 85 points when the GK bring a vindicare.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
The issue is as usual, soup having no drawbacks, rather than assassins themselves.

Pretty much this. I don't think adding a single assassin is all that broken, even if you get to pick it on the spot. The issue is a CP battery of guard paired with an already potent primary detachment of Blood Angels or Knights.

I still don't know how to counter someone shuting off heed the prognosticator for a turn. This means that either all NDKs and heros have to hide for that turn and do nothing, or they try to move up field and die from the shoting all armies have. It is like using a two turn vect with a spread CP cost and a free calidus model someone gets. And they can just take it to piss you off, you hide durning deployment, and they don't drop a calidus on their turn, but something else. It is stupid same way demonic units returning is.

An assassin is 4 strikes. Loyal 32 is also a thing.

And? If I drop 4 strikes, and somehow get a model to use it. I am then playing with 2 troops, or would have to turn a unit of paladins in to normal termintors. I don't have IG models so I don't run IG, plus to run them I would have to get their codex.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Good luck finding 85 pts and sometimes the CP to get that assasin to counter someone elses assasin in a GK army.
Not to mention the fact that if your opponent gets his out first, it maybe too late to save a draigo or a GM NDK, making the whole thing more of a what turn to you want to lose on, then an actual counter.

good options for low cost armies though. I can imagine someone not wanting to buy a box of recast IG cavalery and instead use a counts as assasin. Same with marines.

I do hope though that GW is going to add the rules to a CA or put them online later on. My store gets 2 WDs, makes mass use of assasins kind of a hard.

Ooooo, which assassin is the best to take out an assassin? Probably the vindicator I suppose.. A charging eversor should be able to deal out enough wounds with appropriate stratagems...

I imagine that for the two melee-primary assassins, the best counter would be stratagems that allow you to shoot things when they deep strike at you. For a culexus, I'd think including a couple autohitting weapons would be the way to go, though any kind of thing that grants you a +1 to hit will be extremely valuable (because you hit as if you're BS6+, but all +to hit stuff still applies there so you'd be hitting him on 5s or whatever.)

TBH besides the culexus vs vindicare matchup I don't think "assassins to hunt assassins" is that great a solution. Each one has their own thing that effectively counters it (hit when you DS strats for eversor+callidus, autohit weapons for culexus, alpha strike chargers for Vindicare) but they all have a thing I'd point to as part of a good TAC list that helps effectively bring them down.

I am 100% in favor of anything that makes characters a tiny bit more risky to just plop onto the board behind a screen. I like the new assassin rules a lot and I hope we see more updates to the current flatline "assassin style units" that just don't work atm like the solitaire, lictors, etc.

Guess where the vindicare is going to be placed. (Hint: just plopped onto the board behind a screen). The whole vindicare thing is really weird. GW gave the characters short range buff auras because they are supposed to hang around units. If they were going to be played safely they would have 12" range on their auras or bigger. With 6", means that GW wants us to play the characters alongside units out in the open, since otherwise they can't buff anything. Then they go and make assassins that kill them... Then why make the characters like this in the first place?

Almost like for most of the edition, aura-bot characters have run around with basically no risk to them because snipers have been kept horrifically underpowered for no reason (it should not take an average of 20-30 sniper rifle shots to down a basic captain level commander...) and it has resulted in some hilariously skewed aura parking lot lists revolving around OP buff characters.

The existence of a counter to that is not a bad thing, at all, for the health of the game.

I am sorry that it feels bad for your aurabuff character to get sniped. Dependent on the army you play, bring character bodyguards, transport them until their aura needs to be deployed, deep strike them, or hide them behind terrain. It really isn't that hard to counterplay a sniper, you're just finding issue with it because this is a sniper you can't just stand out in the open against anyway and laugh off like most of the snipers in the game.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
The issue is as usual, soup having no drawbacks, rather than assassins themselves.

Ah yes, because when everyone had access to use assassins with Daemonhunters and Witchhunters, everyone used them as they were broken.

OR you could actually evaluate the models themselves and realize some things are too over the top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Good luck finding 85 pts and sometimes the CP to get that assasin to counter someone elses assasin in a GK army.
Not to mention the fact that if your opponent gets his out first, it maybe too late to save a draigo or a GM NDK, making the whole thing more of a what turn to you want to lose on, then an actual counter.

good options for low cost armies though. I can imagine someone not wanting to buy a box of recast IG cavalery and instead use a counts as assasin. Same with marines.

I do hope though that GW is going to add the rules to a CA or put them online later on. My store gets 2 WDs, makes mass use of assasins kind of a hard.

Ooooo, which assassin is the best to take out an assassin? Probably the vindicator I suppose.. A charging eversor should be able to deal out enough wounds with appropriate stratagems...

I imagine that for the two melee-primary assassins, the best counter would be stratagems that allow you to shoot things when they deep strike at you. For a culexus, I'd think including a couple autohitting weapons would be the way to go, though any kind of thing that grants you a +1 to hit will be extremely valuable (because you hit as if you're BS6+, but all +to hit stuff still applies there so you'd be hitting him on 5s or whatever.)

TBH besides the culexus vs vindicare matchup I don't think "assassins to hunt assassins" is that great a solution. Each one has their own thing that effectively counters it (hit when you DS strats for eversor+callidus, autohit weapons for culexus, alpha strike chargers for Vindicare) but they all have a thing I'd point to as part of a good TAC list that helps effectively bring them down.

I am 100% in favor of anything that makes characters a tiny bit more risky to just plop onto the board behind a screen. I like the new assassin rules a lot and I hope we see more updates to the current flatline "assassin style units" that just don't work atm like the solitaire, lictors, etc.

Guess where the vindicare is going to be placed. (Hint: just plopped onto the board behind a screen). The whole vindicare thing is really weird. GW gave the characters short range buff auras because they are supposed to hang around units. If they were going to be played safely they would have 12" range on their auras or bigger. With 6", means that GW wants us to play the characters alongside units out in the open, since otherwise they can't buff anything. Then they go and make assassins that kill them... Then why make the characters like this in the first place?

Almost like for most of the edition, aura-bot characters have run around with basically no risk to them because snipers have been kept horrifically underpowered for no reason (it should not take an average of 20-30 sniper rifle shots to down a basic captain level commander...) and it has resulted in some hilariously skewed aura parking lot lists revolving around OP buff characters.

The existence of a counter to that is not a bad thing, at all, for the health of the game.

I am sorry that it feels bad for your aurabuff character to get sniped. Dependent on the army you play, bring character bodyguards, transport them until their aura needs to be deployed, deep strike them, or hide them behind terrain. It really isn't that hard to counterplay a sniper, you're just finding issue with it because this is a sniper you can't just stand out in the open against anyway and laugh off like most of the snipers in the game.

You DO realize the Vindicare can make his points back vs any bodyguards that aren't from Genestealer Cults. Ya know, when you made this argument the first time and I asked if you knew the actual price of bodyguard units.

Dependent on the army you play, bring character bodyguards, transport them until their aura needs to be deployed, deep strike them, or hide them behind terrain. It really isn't that hard to counterplay a sniper, you're just finding issue with it because this is a sniper you can't just stand out in the open against anyway and laugh off like most of the snipers in the game.

Ah yes, lets take a 200pts transport to protect a 180pts character. If you show me where bodyguard units are for GK it would be great though, are they FW ?

Karol wrote:

Dependent on the army you play, bring character bodyguards, transport them until their aura needs to be deployed, deep strike them, or hide them behind terrain. It really isn't that hard to counterplay a sniper, you're just finding issue with it because this is a sniper you can't just stand out in the open against anyway and laugh off like most of the snipers in the game.

Ah yes, lets take a 200pts transport to protect a 180pts character. If you show me where bodyguard units are for GK it would be great though, are they FW ?

Not even a Grey Knight Rhino costs 200 points.

I do agree that transports need to stop paying a huge cost for being able to transport things, but, if you are playing against a lost of snipers/psychic powers that can target characters, then sometimes a cheap transport works wonders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
I still don't know how to counter someone shuting off heed the prognosticator for a turn. This means that either all NDKs and heros have to hide for that turn and do nothing, or they try to move up field and die from the shoting all armies have. It is like using a two turn vect with a spread CP cost and a free calidus model someone gets. And they can just take it to piss you off, you hide durning deployment, and they don't drop a calidus on their turn, but something else. It is stupid same way demonic units returning is.

An assassin is 4 strikes. Loyal 32 is also a thing.

And? If I drop 4 strikes, and somehow get a model to use it. I am then playing with 2 troops, or would have to turn a unit of paladins in to normal termintors. I don't have IG models so I don't run IG, plus to run them I would have to get their codex.

Also, Heed costs 2CP, and on a 50/50 dice roll costs 3CP instead. Sure, it's painful in terms of cost of a pure GK army, but, then again, a 2++ is just as painful for a lot of armies to deal with in return.

Besides, i think vs Pure GK you're more likely to see the Culexus

I suspect that the Eversor is going to be much less impactful in practice than he looks on paper.

He really wants to go after a squishy gun line... but the juiciest target in competitive play that fits such a profile is, like, the Shield Drone swarm around a couple of Riptides. And the Eversor would almost certainly die if he attempted a charge at such a target by eating a billion 5+ Greater Good overwatch shots.


Love the concept, though.

Karol wrote:

Dependent on the army you play, bring character bodyguards, transport them until their aura needs to be deployed, deep strike them, or hide them behind terrain. It really isn't that hard to counterplay a sniper, you're just finding issue with it because this is a sniper you can't just stand out in the open against anyway and laugh off like most of the snipers in the game.

Ah yes, lets take a 200pts transport to protect a 180pts character. If you show me where bodyguard units are for GK it would be great though, are they FW ?

Draigo is W7 2+

It would take a considerable amount of effort to bring him down.

Jyrgunkarrd wrote:
I suspect that the Eversor is going to be much less impactful in practice than he looks on paper.

He really wants to go after a squishy gun line... but the juiciest target in competitive play that fits such a profile is, like, the Shield Drone swarm around a couple of Riptides. And the Eversor would almost certainly die if he attempted a charge at such a target by eating a billion 5+ Greater Good overwatch shots.


Love the concept, though.

I agree he is probably overhyped.
The Culexus (for obvious reasons) and the Callidus are probably the go to for most situations.

Karol wrote:

And? If I drop 4 strikes, and somehow get a model to use it. I am then playing with 2 troops, or would have to turn a unit of paladins in to normal termintors. I don't have IG models so I don't run IG, plus to run them I would have to get their codex.

Everyone has to drop models to make it fit. GK are not special in this regard.

Draigo
Voldus
3x5 Strikes

Techmarine
Brother Captain
2x5 Strikes
1x10 Strikes
Ven Dread, HPC, ML

Knight or Stormraven and some paladins

Assassin

13CP

I DO not realize that, because it IS not true. Looking at a few different codexes, the vindicare assassin definitely does not make his points back against tau drones, guard bullgryn bodyguards or grots using the grot shield stratagem (and you mentioned GSC). For the codexes with more expensive bodyguards that have the shittier version of the bodyguard rule (intercept the lost wound rather than the whole hit, like Honor Guard, Sslyth and Lychguard) it would make sense to use them to keep him alive if needed, rather than to tank every wound of the hit.

An honor guard appears to be 26pts. assuming he's shooting at a regular space marine captain, the vindicare does an average of 2.8 damage to him including headshot damage, which is slightly misleading as an average because he tends to score big or miss big: he's got a 42.8% chance of not doing diddly squat against any character with a 3+ armor save. So, let's say he does score that hit, then he'll do an average of 3.7 damage (between headshot and the 1/6 chance of a D6 damage shot). If that gets the captain dangerously close to his 5 wounds, intercept a wound or two with a 26 point honor guard.

If you're playing a MEQ army I find it tough to believe you don't have a way to get 2 turns of use out of your characters with 1 vindicare focusing them down, even assuming he DOES hit every time. Assuming average rolls he should miss once every three shots, meaning you'll get three turns of use out of them.

1) if you go first, you get one turn out of him before your opponent shoots him. If you go second, start him in a transport or behind any terrain feature/vehicle and your opponent won't get to shoot him, then move him into the position you want on your turn.

2) Turn 2, he shoots your character and very likely does not kill him. He cannot double shoot the same target.

3) Turn 3, he kills the character. You've either gotten two, or three turns out of the character.

I said it in the keller thread and I will say it again: I am not afraid of something that takes 3 turns to kill my characters. At all. In almost every decently competitive game I play, I've blown all my CPs, all my combos, whatever, turn 1, 2, and 3. Rarely have both lists not run out of steam by turn 3 and devolved the game into an endgame scoring contest.

I don't care if my buff character is dead bottom of turn 3/top of turn 4. At that point if the stuff he's buffing isn't also mostly dead I have already steamrolled the game.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if your character is in terminator armor, the vindicare has a 46% chance of wounding you at all. And if your character is a GMNDK, which is not an infantry model it all, he's got a WHOPPING 18.4% chance of causing a wound.

Damn, Grey Knights really are screwed huh, what are they going to do.

Why, if your opponent takes 3 vindicare assassins, they're going to be SCYTHING down your GMNDKs at a vicious rate of one every...

5.9 turns.

BRUTAL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry, I did the probability wrong for Headshot, the damage should really be

2*5/6 + 3.5*1/6

+.6666+ (.6666*.5) + (.666*.5*.333) + (.666*.5*.333*.17)

3.39, not 3.7.

the_scotsman wrote:


+.6666+ (.6666*.5) + (.666*.5*.333) + (.666*.5*.333*.17)

Good job on that piece. I didn't want to have to type that out so I'm glad you did instead of me!

Such a great change. This fixes those lists that could stand up to the IoM Soup lists!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


+.6666+ (.6666*.5) + (.666*.5*.333) + (.666*.5*.333*.17)

Good job on that piece. I didn't want to have to type that out so I'm glad you did instead of me!

Right. I don't know the official terminology but I think of it as "chain probability" - in order to get each subsequent result, all the results prior must have succeeded.