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 alextroy wrote:
There could be a sub phase for End of Phase, but that's not what the W40K rules state. Otherwise there would be no need for the Sequencing rules to state (Emphasis added):

Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

That is stating that when two rules happen simultaneously, sequencing occurs. It says nothing about the end of the Movement phase being an instant in time.

It clearly states how to resolve actions that have to take place at the same time, such as ‘at the start of the Movement phase’, which makes it how to resolve actions that take place ‘at the end of the Movement phase’.

Doesn't matter if you think it is a single point in time or an undeclared 'sub phase', they are happening at the same time and use is governed by the Sequencing rule.

 alextroy wrote:
It clearly states how to resolve actions that have to take place at the same time, such as ‘at the start of the Movement phase’, which makes it how to resolve actions that take place ‘at the end of the Movement phase’.

Doesn't matter if you think it is a single point in time or an undeclared 'sub phase', they are happening at the same time and use is governed by the Sequencing rule.

But that doesn't prevent using the Beacon Angelis, provided you sequence your actions correctly. There are no rules that say you must declare all your End of Movement Phase actions at once and all must be legal at the time you declare them before then moving on to carrying out the declared sequence. That's entirely a construct that some people are making up. There's no concept of anything like the Stack from MtG going on here, which has very precise rules governing sequencing.

Slipspace wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
It clearly states how to resolve actions that have to take place at the same time, such as ‘at the start of the Movement phase’, which makes it how to resolve actions that take place ‘at the end of the Movement phase’.

Doesn't matter if you think it is a single point in time or an undeclared 'sub phase', they are happening at the same time and use is governed by the Sequencing rule.

But that doesn't prevent using the Beacon Angelis, provided you sequence your actions correctly. There are no rules that say you must declare all your End of Movement Phase actions at once and all must be legal at the time you declare them before then moving on to carrying out the declared sequence. That's entirely a construct that some people are making up. There's no concept of anything like the Stack from MtG going on here, which has very precise rules governing sequencing.

While not a RAW argument, it's also worth noting that nobody I've ever played with or ever seen play plans out all their end of phase effects in order before beginning to execute them.

From a practical standpoint, that simply doesn't happen.

I hate to say it, but people do lots of things in the game for connivence that are not strictly legal. Doesn't change the RAW.

 alextroy wrote:
I hate to say it, but people do lots of things in the game for connivence that are not strictly legal. Doesn't change the RAW.

Agreed, that's why I qualified my statement as such.

I still believe it's useful to have an awareness of how people actually play the game when discussing rules though, otherwise we'd never get past telling people their Assault weapons don't work!

 alextroy wrote:
No. Because you would need to be able use them all at the same time and then choose the order before using any. However, if the character is not on the board at the end of the turn, you can't activate the The Beacon Angelis before you choose the come in via Drop Pod or Teleportarium. Once you've come on, the phase is over and you can't choose at add a new "End of Phase" action to the sequence.

Wait..doesn't that mean that only one unit could ever deep strike per turn?

I feel like each "sequence phase" occurs as long as you need it to - the shooting phase for instance lasts as long as you want to do "shooting phase" actions. The charge phase lasts as long as you want to do charge phase actions.

"start of the" and "end of the" actions just have to group together, before or after any more actions taken during that phase. They essentially create a sub-phase.

I still do not think Sequencing is applicable here. While both Teleportarium/Jump Assault and the affects of the Beacon do indeed occur "at the end of the move phase", since the Beacon is not actually available at the ....beginning of the end, Sequencing just does not apply.
You have to drop the Character in first.

However, at the instance, the Beacon BECOMES available. And since you have not proceeded, nor are required to IMMEDIATELY proceed to the Psychic Phase, you are STILL at the "end of the move phase"
This is a permissive ruleset, therefore if I am given permission to use something, I can do it.

There is no evidence yet presented that denies or otherwise contradicts the permission thus given.
-Sequencing does not apply because both rules are not in play at the same time (one MUST occur before the other)
-The Beacon can be used at the end of the move phase, which it still is
-Nor is there any RAW stating actions of multiple units' actions must be declared before any of those actions are resolved. Every phase dictates you pick units one at a time to declare AND RESOLVE their actions before selecting another unit to declare and resolve.

Thus the RAW would indicate that you do indeed pick your actions one at a time, meaning that if something becomes available within that phase/time period, it is eligible to select, even if it wasn't are the start of that phase/time period.
You choose which units arrive ONE BY ONE at the end of the move phase. How is that any different than choosing to use the Beacon, which itself calls out being able to bring in units from Reserve?

-

 Galef wrote:
-Sequencing does not apply because both rules are not in play at the same time (one MUST occur before the other)
-The Beacon can be used at the end of the move phase, which it still is

You contradict yourself here.
If the unit arrives at the end of the phase (sequenced with any others also arriving), and the beacon must activate after that, it is now after the end of the phase, and the beacon is no longer eligible to be activated.

 Kcalehc wrote:

 Galef wrote:
-Sequencing does not apply because both rules are not in play at the same time (one MUST occur before the other)
-The Beacon can be used at the end of the move phase, which it still is

You contradict yourself here.
If the unit arrives at the end of the phase (sequenced with any others also arriving), and the beacon must activate after that, it is now after the end of the phase, and the beacon is no longer eligible to be activated.

Sigh...

Only if you count the end of the movement phase as a moment rather than a sub-phase! People really need to stop making that assumption.

 Stux wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:

 Galef wrote:
-Sequencing does not apply because both rules are not in play at the same time (one MUST occur before the other)
-The Beacon can be used at the end of the move phase, which it still is

You contradict yourself here.
If the unit arrives at the end of the phase (sequenced with any others also arriving), and the beacon must activate after that, it is now after the end of the phase, and the beacon is no longer eligible to be activated.

Sigh...

Only if you count the end of the movement phase as a moment rather than a sub-phase! People really need to stop making that assumption.

Exactly. If "end of the movement phase" is one specific instant in time that can never be "returned to", then someone please explain how anyone is able to bring in more than 1 unit from reserves per turn...

...I'll wait...

...no, actually, I won't wait. Because I've already explained how the best interpretation of "end of the move phase" is the period of time BETWEEN moving your last unit and before starting the Psychic phase. So long as you are between these to "points" in time, you are STILL at the end of the move phase.
Any other interpretation would IMMEDIATLY result in proceeding to the next phase after doing a SINGLE "end of the move phase" action.
What would be the point of the Beta Tactic Reserve rule if you could only bring in 1 unit per turn?
What's that? You put 4 units in Reserve? Well some of those unit will instantly die because they cannot arrive by turn 3

Snark aside, this is the logical interpretation when you think it through

-

And before someone comes back with "the English definition of 'the end' is a moment in time:

1.
Not necessarily, it depends on context.

2.
Often not in general gaming vernacular, with many games treating the end of something as a period of time.

Once again, I feel compelled to note that the rules do not give us clear indication either way. MAYBE it is in instant in time, and MAYBE it is a period of time, and DEFINITELY you should talk it over with your opponent before playing.

 Octopoid wrote:
Once again, I feel compelled to note that the rules do not give us clear indication either way. MAYBE it is in instant in time, and MAYBE it is a period of time, and DEFINITELY you should talk it over with your opponent before playing.

And I agree it could go either way. But the implications of one particular interpretation being presented would very much lead to situations in which whole armies (like Daemons & GSC) would actually instantly lose, or at least lose a large chunk of their army due to the inability to bring them in from reserves.

If the "end" in a finite point, you get 1 ability at the point and NO MOAR. Period. because the point will have past once you resolve that 1 action.
That cannot be how it works at all. Therefore the more correct interpretation MUST be that the "end" is a period between 2 points, thereby allowing for multiple "end of the phase" actions to happen.
Since these actions would be resolved one at a time, that clearly allows for other actions to become available as a result or a prior action resolved, while still being between the 2 points in time.

-

If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is

Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

 alextroy wrote:
If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is

Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

Nothing about this rule says the active player can't add events to the sequence after they start resolving it. They're still choosing the order.

 alextroy wrote:
If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is

Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

Sarcasm and derision are not necessary or appreciated. We differ in our interpretations of the rules. Both are valid, whether you like to admit that or not. There's some solid arguments on both sides. The sequencing rule alone does not solve this issue - if it did, we wouldn't still be talking about it.

Thanks.

 Stux wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is

Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

Nothing about this rule says the active can't add events to the sequence after they start resolving it. They're still choosing the order.

But if you're bringing a unit on the board then having it involved with the Beacon Angelis after, it's not doing those actions at the same time, it's trying to have it do something after the end of the movement phase.

Sequencing isn't at the same time. The whole is to turn would be simultaneous things into a sequence you resolve one by one.

Also it's still the end of the movement phase if the end is a period of time, which is a perfectly valid interpretation.

 Stux wrote:
Sequencing isn't at the same time. The whole is to turn would be simultaneous things into a sequence you resolve one by one.

Also it's still the end of the movement phase if the end is a period of time, which is a perfectly valid interpretation.

Except it's not valid because it allows me to move my other units after Deep Striking in others.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Sequencing isn't at the same time. The whole is to turn would be simultaneous things into a sequence you resolve one by one.

Also it's still the end of the movement phase if the end is a period of time, which is a perfectly valid interpretation.

Except it's not valid because it allows me to move my other units after Deep Striking in others.

No it doesn't, because that isn't an End of Movement phase action.

 alextroy wrote:
If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is

Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

And since the Beacon ISN"T on the table until AFTER the Character with it arrives, Sequencing is NOT at play here as I have stated.
Sequencing only applies when both rules occur at the same time. Since the Beacon cannot be used unit the Character arrives, that must happen first. The "choice" the owning player has is chosen for them.
However, as I have posted before, the Beacon may still be used at that point because you are STILL at the end of the move phase.

There are no RAW that state when you MUST proceed to the next phase. As long as I still have actions to perform "at the end of the move phase" I can resolve them as I see fit until I am done.
The Move phase will look like this:
1) I move each unit, 1 by 1 until have no more units to move
2) As it is then the end of the phase, I bring in Reserve units 1 by 1, starting with my captain that has the Beacon
3) It is STILL the end of the phase. I can use the Beacon to pull a unit to the Capt
4) Since I have yet more units in Reserve, I continue to bring them in, 1 by 1

Sequencing is irrelevant here because:
A) The Beacon isn't on the table until after the Capt drops in or
B) All the actions occurring "at the end of the phase" are happening in my turn and therefore I decide how they are resolved per Sequencing

 Stux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Sequencing isn't at the same time. The whole is to turn would be simultaneous things into a sequence you resolve one by one.

Also it's still the end of the movement phase if the end is a period of time, which is a perfectly valid interpretation.

Except it's not valid because it allows me to move my other units after Deep Striking in others.

No it doesn't, because that isn't an End of Movement phase action.

Stux is correct. RAW, you pick and resolve your unit's movement "at the start of the Movement phase.
If you have begun preforming "end of the phase" actions, you are no longer at the "start of the phase"

And actually, this wording lends further evidence that "starts" and "ends" are 100% NOT a finite points.
Otherwise, a players would only ever get to move ONE unit per turn. Because once you resolve that unit and move to the next, it isn't the "start" anymore.
Since that is ridiculous, it should be clear that those "points" are extended periods that begin and end according to the player running out of actions to perform

-

 Galef wrote:
Stux is correct. RAW, you pick and resolve your unit's movement "at the start of the Movement phase.
If you have begun preforming "end of the phase" actions, you are no longer at the "start of the phase"

Why do you quote things that don't exist?

Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition Rulebook, Page 177 wrote:Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase.

Not a single instance of "at the start of the Movement phase."

Since you're not actually arguing in good faith (as shown by your fraudulent quotes), I contend that your arguments are thus invalidated.

BCB is right in one respect, movement of units is during the movement phase. End of the movement phase is still part of the movement phase and so you can continue to move units after deep striking in others.

Beacon Angelis requires an action ie deployment on the board before it can be used ergo one of those "End of movement phase" actions wasn't used at the end of that units movement phase.

The rules for reinforcement also stating "their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" is also indicative that they can take no further elective actions in the movement phase which would include the Beacon Angelis.

Octopoid wrote:

Spoiler:

 alextroy wrote:
If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is

Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

Sarcasm and derision are not necessary or appreciated. We differ in our interpretations of the rules. Both are valid, whether you like to admit that or not. There's some solid arguments on both sides. The sequencing rule alone does not solve this issue - if it did, we wouldn't still be talking about it.

Thanks.

Please forgive my descent into sarcasm, Octopoid. I just couldn't help myself when confronted with arguments like:

Galef wrote:...If "end of the movement phase" is one specific instant in time that can never be "returned to", then someone please explain how anyone is able to bring in more than 1 unit from reserves per turn...

...I'll wait...

...no, actually, I won't wait. ...

And

Galef wrote:[...If the "end" in a finite point, you get 1 ability at the point and NO MOAR. Period. because the point will have past once you resolve that 1 action.
That cannot be how it works at all. Therefore the more correct interpretation MUST be that the "end" is a period between 2 points, thereby allowing for multiple "end of the phase" actions to happen.
Since these actions would be resolved one at a time, that clearly allows for other actions to become available as a result or a prior action resolved, while still being between the 2 points in time.

That are literally answered merely by pointing to the Sequencing Rule whether it is a not-defined-in-the-rules sub-phase or a implied moment in time.

Galef wrote:

Spoiler:

 alextroy wrote:
If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is

Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

And since the Beacon ISN"T on the table until AFTER the Character with it arrives, Sequencing is NOT at play here as I have stated.
Sequencing only applies when both rules occur at the same time. Since the Beacon cannot be used unit the Character arrives, that must happen first. The "choice" the owning player has is chosen for them.
However, as I have posted before, the Beacon may still be used at that point because you are STILL at the end of the move phase.

There are no RAW that state when you MUST proceed to the next phase. As long as I still have actions to perform "at the end of the move phase" I can resolve them as I see fit until I am done.
The Move phase will look like this:
1) I move each unit, 1 by 1 until have no more units to move
2) As it is then the end of the phase, I bring in Reserve units 1 by 1, starting with my captain that has the Beacon
3) It is STILL the end of the phase. I can use the Beacon to pull a unit to the Capt
4) Since I have yet more units in Reserve, I continue to bring them in, 1 by 1

Sequencing is irrelevant here because:
A) The Beacon isn't on the table until after the Capt drops in or
B) All the actions occurring "at the end of the phase" are happening in my turn and therefore I decide how they are resolved per Sequencing

An this is where we just disagree. There is a Sequencing issue. GW explicitly calls out things that happen at a specific unambiguous time (Start/End of a Phase/Turn/Battle Round) as a time when the Sequencing rules comes into effect. You can't just wish that away. It's right there in the rules I quoted. They have to be things that try to happen at the same time. Anything else is taking another action after the "End of the Movement Phase" because you couldn't use Sequencing to allow to choose it in the first place.

End of movement starts; the following "end of movement" effects are checked:

CHECK - Unit 1's Deepstrike
CHECK - Unit 2's Deepstrike
NOT CHECKED - Beacon ; as the unit is not on the table

Now that everything's triggered, you then move on to sequencing rules; which allow you to order the effects that have triggered, in the order of your choice - because multiple things ARE happening at the same time.

The problem is that when all the abilities activate, Beacon isn't ABLE to activate; since the model holding it is not yet on the table - so it CAN'T have activated, and put itself in sequencing. Any other result is activating AFTER "End of Movement" phase step has started; which means it doesn't follow under sequencing rules (and also doesn't apply, since the moment of activation already passed before the model was able to be placed on the table).

There is only one "end of turn" trigger step; the rest is just sequencing the effects that happen once that step gets triggered.

fe40k wrote:


There is only one "end of turn" trigger step; the rest is just sequencing the effects that happen once that step gets triggered.

Once again though, this is just an opinion of how to implement it, with no firm rules basis. Nowhere in the rules is this stated.

Just like how it's "opinion" that dice are numbered 1 through 6, but that's how it has to be for the game to function.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:

fe40k wrote:


There is only one "end of turn" trigger step; the rest is just sequencing the effects that happen once that step gets triggered.

Once again though, this is just an opinion of how to implement it, with no firm rules basis. Nowhere in the rules is this stated.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Just like how it's "opinion" that dice are numbered 1 through 6, but that's how it has to be for the game to function.

That's a false equivalence and I have no idea why you keep brining it up. Nothing about the natural language used in "end of movement phase" implies you can't use an ability like the Beacon provided you order your sequence in the correct way.

Slipspace wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Just like how it's "opinion" that dice are numbered 1 through 6, but that's how it has to be for the game to function.

That's a false equivalence and I have no idea why you keep brining it up. Nothing about the natural language used in "end of movement phase" implies you can't use an ability like the Beacon provided you order your sequence in the correct way.

Agreed, BCB's statement doesn't apply here at all. I'm not saying dice could be numbered 2 to 7.

The two interpretations are equally valid and I haven't seen a shred of evidence to the contrary of that. The end of a phase being a period of time in itself is COMMON in games. Dice numbered 2 to 7 are not.