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I think we have reached the point where no-one is going to convince anyone of anything. You either believe A or B about the "Beginning/End of x".

 alextroy wrote:
I think we have reached the point where no-one is going to convince anyone of anything. You either believe A or B about the "Beginning/End of x".

Or "we don't have enough evidence for either" which is my position.

Normally, I can see other interpretations as valid and will say so. But in this instance, the opposing interpretation leads to "incorrect" situations that have not been address.

For example, if "end of the move phase" is a one time instance, than only 1 action can be preformed and once resolved it is no longer the "end of the move phase".
That cannot be correct as it means no player could ever bring in more than 1 unit from Reserves.

That is what I am trying to refute. Excuse my "incorrect, bad-faith" quoting. I'll just stop quoting since I don't have the Primer up at all times. My question is still valid:
____________________________________________
How do you bring in more that 1 unit if "end of the move phase" is a single, non-repeatable instance in time?
____________________________________________

Regardless of what rule/logic is used to arrive at the answer to that question, the answer will always be that you CAN being in more than 1 unit at the "end" of the phase.
That HAS to mean the time frame is not 1 single instance. And if it isn't 1 single instance, but rather an extended period defined however you wish, than a valid argument stands to reason that the Beacon can thus be used once the Character drops in, so long as you are STILL considered in that time frame.

That is the premises I am suggesting. Nothing RAW presented thus far either contradicts this premise or refutes the ability to use the Beacon under this premise.

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I don't really understand this objection to be honest... You can declare all the actions simultaneously at the point of the end of the phase (if that is the interpretation we are using), then resolve them with sequencing.

That's how you would bring in multiple units.

I don't necessarily think this is the correct implementation, but I don't see this as an argument against it either.

 Stux wrote:
I don't really understand this objection to be honest... You can declare all the actions simultaneously at the point of the end of the phase (if that is the interpretation we are using), then resolve them with sequencing.

That's how you would bring in multiple units.

I don't necessarily think this is the correct implementation, but I don't see this as an argument against it either.

I would not have anything against this interpretation either, except it is being presented as a way to "deny" the use of the Beacon because it isn't on the table at the moment you would declare its use.

But, of course, you could counter argue that neither is the Character that is arriving, so how are you able to check its datasheet to see how it is allowed to arrive in the first place?
With that counter-argument, you could declare all units arriving and the use of the Beacon at the same time, but resolve the Character arriving first.

-

 Stux wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I think we have reached the point where no-one is going to convince anyone of anything. You either believe A or B about the "Beginning/End of x".

Or "we don't have enough evidence for either" which is my position.

I would think the fact of having the unit teleport in at the end of the phase than activate the Beacon Angelis after that, which would mean you're trying to activate it after the end of the movement phase is evidence enough. It's not a sequencing issue. GW's covered this with things such as not allowing stratagems to be used at the end of the movement phase on a unit arriving as reinforcements because the stratagem would have to be played after the end of the movement phase, this situation isn't different from that.

 doctortom wrote:
which would mean you're trying to activate it after the end of the movement phase is evidence enough.

Ok, we'll do this again then...

What makes you think this is happening AFTER the end of the movement phase, as opposed to DURING the end of the movement phase? A rule citation would be good, if you're so certain.

Quoting myself here, so we don't retread this argument again too:

 Stux wrote:
And before someone comes back with "the English definition of 'the end' is a moment in time:

1.
Not necessarily, it depends on context.

2.
Often not in general gaming vernacular, with many games treating the end of something as a period of time.

 Stux wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
which would mean you're trying to activate it after the end of the movement phase is evidence enough.

Ok, we'll do this again then...

What makes you think this is happening AFTER the end of the movement phase, as opposed to DURING the end of the movement phase? A rule citation would be good, if you're so certain.

Right, if you haven't yet proceeded to the next phase (Psychic), then there is nothing RAW saying you are not STILL at the end of the move phase.
The only definitive "end" to the move phase in the BRB is the beginning of the Psychic Phase.
Or, using a quote for the Battle Primer

Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the
models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish.

So by that, the end is once you've moved as many units as you wish, but before you move onto the next phase

The lack of moving onto the Psychic Phase is evidence enough that you are still at the end of the move phase.
Any rule/ability that can be used "at the end of the move phase" should be fair game.

-

Outside of Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, there is only one “End”. Once you’ve reached it, you are done (Sequencing aside). If there was and End of Phase sub-Phase, I would be all in on this, but there isn’t such an animal in the Core Rules.

 alextroy wrote:
Outside of Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, there is only one “End”. Once you’ve reached it, you are done (Sequencing aside). If there was and End of Phase sub-Phase, I would be all in on this, but there isn’t such an animal in the Core Rules.

Yeah, but there's nothing support any other way of interpreting it either. So we don't know which is correct without new information.

 Stux wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Outside of Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, there is only one “End”. Once you’ve reached it, you are done (Sequencing aside). If there was and End of Phase sub-Phase, I would be all in on this, but there isn’t such an animal in the Core Rules.

Yeah, but there's nothing support any other way of interpreting it either. So we don't know which is correct without new information.

While I have thus far been firmly in the "there is evidence for this" I am starting to be more in the "nothing to support either way" camp.

And due to there being no evidence, you would have to either:
A) allow the Beacon to be used because you are still at the "end", or
B) strictly enforce a "1 action only ever" after completing all your moves. This would mean only ever allowing 1 unit to arrive from reserve

It has to be one or the other. And since I don't see many players using B's interpretation, I'll have to continue using A's

-

You basically have to mutually agree before the game, or roll off.

Or ask the TO in a competitive setting of course.

 Stux wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
which would mean you're trying to activate it after the end of the movement phase is evidence enough.

Ok, we'll do this again then...

What makes you think this is happening AFTER the end of the movement phase, as opposed to DURING the end of the movement phase? A rule citation would be good, if you're so certain.

Quoting myself here, so we don't retread this argument again too:

 Stux wrote:
And before someone comes back with "the English definition of 'the end' is a moment in time:

1.
Not necessarily, it depends on context.

2.
Often not in general gaming vernacular, with many games treating the end of something as a period of time.

It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..

Why do you think this should be able to be handled any differently than how they handle (not) playing stratagems on a unit that has arrived from reinforcements at the end of the movement phase? The arguments that had previously been made for doing it through sequencing is the same argument being advanced here for doing it, and GW shot it down for stratagems.

 doctortom wrote:

It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..

Ok... And yet again this isn't a problem at all if the end of the phase is a period of time. So not a reason it can't be.

All you are really saying here is:

'if the end is a moment only, nothing can happen after that moment before it ends'

Sure, you would be right. IF it was a moment.

 Galef wrote:
B) strictly enforce a "1 action only ever" after completing all your moves. This would mean only ever allowing 1 unit to arrive from reserve

I disagree, if the End of movement phase is a definite event then the '1 action only' applies equally to all units. By specifying what units are arriving then you have declared their singular action. Multiple rules interactions, use sequencing to resolve them in the manner you want, ie which unit arrives where and in what order. By including the Beacon Angelis into the mix you are attempting to use 2 end of phase actions when there can be only one action per unit. Otherwise it wouldn't be an end action.

Cheers

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..

Ok... And yet again this isn't a problem at all if the end of the phase is a period of time. So not a reason it can't be.

All you are really saying here is:

'if the end is a moment only, nothing can happen after that moment before it ends'

Sure, you would be right. IF it was a moment.

To quote you back, sure, you would be right. IF it was a period of time.

 Stux wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..

Ok... And yet again this isn't a problem at all if the end of the phase is a period of time. So not a reason it can't be.

All you are really saying here is:

'if the end is a moment only, nothing can happen after that moment before it ends'

Sure, you would be right. IF it was a moment.

What I'm saying is that how they handle stratagems in relation to reinforcements is a precedent for how to handle this situation. You don't seem to want to include precedents when saying there isn't evidence for either way. A Precedent seems to be reasonable evidence for one way to be chosen over the other.

And you didn't directly address why this should be handled any differently than how stratagems are handled in this type of situation, which GW has ruled on.

DoctorTom, is this the FAQ you are using a precedence?

Q: If I set up a unit on the battlefield as reinforcements at the end of my Movement phase,
can I then use any Stratagems that are used ‘during your Movement phase’?
A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.

I really do not think that can be used as precedence considering the question is specifically referring to "during the phase" Strats.
The Beacon is an "end of the phase" relic

So that FAQ seems to be addressing the timing and confirming those Strats cannot be done because they happen "during". But the Beacon is quite clearly the "end"
The Beacon ALSO allows the bearer to call units to them that are still in Reserves, potentially lending precedence to multiple, in sequence, actions to be performed at the "end"

-

The end of the movement phase is still in the movement phase.

Hypothetical scenario:
You have 2 units in reserve. You drop the first unit in. It's a unit I do not like, so I immediately use Forewarned to have my Reapers shoot at it.
So....something happened that "interrupted" the end of your movement phase.
Do you get to use the reroll Strat for a saving throw?
Do you still get to drop in the 2nd unit?

How does this affect the interpretation that the "end" happens once and cannot have anything happen "after"?
Or do we believe Forewarned just is illegal to be used ever?

-

 doctortom wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..

Ok... And yet again this isn't a problem at all if the end of the phase is a period of time. So not a reason it can't be.

All you are really saying here is:

'if the end is a moment only, nothing can happen after that moment before it ends'

Sure, you would be right. IF it was a moment.

What I'm saying is that how they handle stratagems in relation to reinforcements is a precedent for how to handle this situation. You don't seem to want to include precedents when saying there isn't evidence for either way. A Precedent seems to be reasonable evidence for one way to be chosen over the other.

And you didn't directly address why this should be handled any differently than how stratagems are handled in this type of situation, which GW has ruled on.

I've not addressed it because it's irrelevant, but if you really want me to:

The Stratagems they refer to are ones that say to use them during the movement phase, not at the end of the movement phase. So it's totally different to choosing to do more 'end of the movement phase' abilities.

I don't see how this has any bearing on setting a precedent, the FAQ is talking about a very different situation and isn't at all related to treating the end as a moment or a period.

 Stux wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..

Ok... And yet again this isn't a problem at all if the end of the phase is a period of time. So not a reason it can't be.

All you are really saying here is:

'if the end is a moment only, nothing can happen after that moment before it ends'

Sure, you would be right. IF it was a moment.

What I'm saying is that how they handle stratagems in relation to reinforcements is a precedent for how to handle this situation. You don't seem to want to include precedents when saying there isn't evidence for either way. A Precedent seems to be reasonable evidence for one way to be chosen over the other.

And you didn't directly address why this should be handled any differently than how stratagems are handled in this type of situation, which GW has ruled on.

I've not addressed it because it's irrelevant, but if you really want me to:

The Stratagems they refer to are ones that say to use them during the movement phase, not at the end of the movement phase. So it's totally different to choosing to do more 'end of the movement phase' abilities.

I don't see how this has any bearing on setting a precedent, the FAQ is talking about a very different situation and isn't at all related to treating the end as a moment or a period.

The end of a phase is still during a phase, it's just at the end of it. You haven't shown how it's totally different.

 doctortom wrote:
The end of a phase is still during a phase, it's just at the end of it. You haven't shown how it's totally different.

Ok, so if I accept the premises that a "during/end of" Strat is a no-go, I still don't see how that affects or would be precedence of a non-Strat. Strats are Strats, Relic are not. That's the difference and specifically, the Beacon is not actually affecting the unit that arrived from Reinforcements.

Furthermore, The Beacon specifically allows it to affect a unit in Reserves. This wording seems pointless since units in reserve would already have an ability to drop in around the Character under the same restrictions (within 6" of the Character, outside 9" of enemies)

Side note: Ironically, I am planning on using the Beacon on a Jump Captain, but specifically starting the Capt on the board, not in Reserves. I am doing this to Move+Advance and be able to use the Beacon Turn 1 to pull a unit with Frag cannons well forward into 12" shooting range of an enemy.
So while I am indeed intending on using the Beacon, it will be on the board before the end of the move phase. So a TO ruling against my position wouldn't actually affect me.

-

 doctortom wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..

Ok... And yet again this isn't a problem at all if the end of the phase is a period of time. So not a reason it can't be.

All you are really saying here is:

'if the end is a moment only, nothing can happen after that moment before it ends'

Sure, you would be right. IF it was a moment.

What I'm saying is that how they handle stratagems in relation to reinforcements is a precedent for how to handle this situation. You don't seem to want to include precedents when saying there isn't evidence for either way. A Precedent seems to be reasonable evidence for one way to be chosen over the other.

And you didn't directly address why this should be handled any differently than how stratagems are handled in this type of situation, which GW has ruled on.

I've not addressed it because it's irrelevant, but if you really want me to:

The Stratagems they refer to are ones that say to use them during the movement phase, not at the end of the movement phase. So it's totally different to choosing to do more 'end of the movement phase' abilities.

I don't see how this has any bearing on setting a precedent, the FAQ is talking about a very different situation and isn't at all related to treating the end as a moment or a period.

The end of a phase is still during a phase, it's just at the end of it. You haven't shown how it's totally different.

It's a completely different situation in that it doesn't address whether the end of the phase is a moment or a period of time, all it does is say that abilities which have a time of "during the movement phase" cannot be used "at the end of the movement phase".

That is totally irrelevant to the discussion of whether the end of the movement phase is a moment or a time period.

I really don't understand what the difficulty is here.

 Galef wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
The end of a phase is still during a phase, it's just at the end of it. You haven't shown how it's totally different.

Ok, so if I accept the premises that a "during/end of" Strat is a no-go, I still don't see how that affects or would be precedence of a non-Strat. Strats are Strats, Relic are not. That's the difference and specifically, the Beacon is not actually affecting the unit that arrived from Reinforcements.

Why wouldn't it be a precedent? You don't get to do something involving something a unit coming in as reinforcements in the movement phase after it arrives. It shouldn't work any differently for a relic than the stratagem. If a stratagem dependent upon being put on a unit arriving from reinforcements can't be done after it arrives, presumably because that puts that action after the end of the movement phase, than any action dependent upon a unit arriving from reinforcements first can't be done after it arrive, for the same reason - presumably because that action would be after the end of the movement phase.'

 Galef wrote:
Furthermore, The Beacon specifically allows it to affect a unit in Reserves. This wording seems pointless since units in reserve would already have an ability to drop in around the Character under the same restrictions (within 6" of the Character, outside 9" of enemies)

Does is say it can affect a unit in Reserves while the Beacon is in Reserves itself?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The end of the movement phase is still in the movement phase.

100% wrong.

Q: If I set up a unit on the battlefield as reinforcements at the
end of my Movement phase, can I then use any Stratagems that
are used ‘during your Movement phase’?
A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.

If the end of a phase would still be that phase you could play a stratagem that is played during that phase. But you can't.

Yes, that's called a Special Snowflake FAQ, what's your point?

The End of the Movement Phase is still part of the Movement Phase. You just can't do anything that is used During the Movement Phase after it because the Movement Phase is then done.

 doctortom wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Furthermore, The Beacon specifically allows it to affect a unit in Reserves. This wording seems pointless since units in reserve would already have an ability to drop in around the Character under the same restrictions (within 6" of the Character, outside 9" of enemies)

Does is say it can affect a unit in Reserves while the Beacon is in Reserves itself?

That's the crux of this disagreement though, isn't it. I'm saying the Beacon isn't in Reserve once the Character arrives, and thus available to used since you would STILL be at the end of the phase, which is when the Beacon can be used. Until you actually proceed to the Psychic phase, there isn't anything else defining when the "end of the move phase"...ends.
And nothing RAW states that all actions must be declared before resolving them. I can bring units from reserve, one by one, judging which units I wish to bring in by what happens as they come in.
For example, if playing against an Eldar player with Reapers near a Farseer, you can bring in the units to try to "bluff" out Forewarned. You would have to give the opponent that chance to declare its use before moving on to bringing in the next unit.

Things MUST be allowed to be "triggerable" due the changing circumstances. Otherwise, abilities/Stratagems like Forewarned would never be legal.

-

100% agree with Galef

Sequencing doesn't apply to Reserves because they don't happen at the same time. The player needs to make a conscious decision to choose which units to deploy, one after another, specifically.

There isn't a requirement to deepstrike at the end of your phase, it's not automatic, so you would naturally be required to select the unit. If you're playing as though the phase ends after completing a single action you could never deepstrike more than one unit, because they'd need to be selected and that wouldn't be possible.

Stop talking about reserves, there is no such thing in 8th edition, its reinforcements.