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I personally see 2 possible interpretations of the blurb.
1 being that in every instance where you need Tyranid you also need <Hive fleet>.

This would mean powers and effects could not be cast between fleets. I've personal seen on streams in GTs this happening. I am by no means implying GTs follow the rules perfectly. But the above interpretation is very restrictive and I feel players of that faction would be aware.

The other interpretation would be that the term "make use of" meaning take or equip. Therefore GSC can't take any of the mentioned things but can be targeted by them assuming they meet requirements.

This is only an issue because TYRANID is both a faction and alinement keyword. I personally believe the purpose of this is so you can't mix GSC and Nids in a single detachment and still achive warforged. Plus this makes it to where GSC can't just automatically unlock all of the traits, stratagems, etc..

Why is this still getting argued?
Tyranids cant even buff other hive fleets so they definately cant buff GSC's.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Why is this still getting argued?
Tyranids cant even buff other hive fleets so they definately cant buff GSC's.

Hang on, what is making you say you can't cast Catalyst on a different Hive Fleet?

No that's my mistake, im confusing the powers with the synapse and aura bonus's.

The powers affect friendly TYRANID models.

GSC's do unfortunately have a clause stating they don't benefit however.

So a nuerothrope could target a GSC unit with the TYRANID keyword, but the unit would gain no benefit due to their own rules.

Fragile wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sorry Fragile, you're totally in the wrong here. "make use" is not the same as "affected by". If GW want to prevent Catalyst working on GSC units they are going to have to issue a Special Snowflake FAQ or a proper errata.

No, I have the rule to back up my view. This falls into another of your "unique" interpretations that your trying to bypass RAW. You need a FAQ to make it work. Since GSC cannot cast Hive Mind Powers, the only way to "make use" of those powers would be to have a Tyranid psyker cast it on them. Which is denied by rule. Otherwise there would be no need to even include it in the rule.

Are you seriously accusing me, of all people, of trying to "bypass" RAW? Having a power cast on you is not making use of the power,the payment casting it is.

Genestealer Cults units therefore cannot make use of
any of the rules listed in this section (this includes the Detachment abilities, Stratagems, bio-artefacts, psychic
powers, Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives described in this section), and instead have their own rules.

This is pretty clear, GSC units cant use any of these rules, nor can they benefit from it.

 p5freak wrote:

Genestealer Cults units therefore cannot make use of
any of the rules listed in this section (this includes the Detachment abilities, Stratagems, bio-artefacts, psychic
powers, Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives described in this section), and instead have their own rules.

This is pretty clear, GSC units cant use any of these rules, nor can they benefit from it.

That's really stretching "making use" in my opinion. Nowhere does it say 'benefit'.

So long as you're not trying have a GSC model cast the power, they can absolutely be affected by them.

 p5freak wrote:

Genestealer Cults units therefore cannot make use of
any of the rules listed in this section (this includes the Detachment abilities, Stratagems, bio-artefacts, psychic
powers, Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives described in this section), and instead have their own rules.

This is pretty clear, GSC units cant use any of these rules, nor can they benefit from it.

It does not say "cannot benefit", it says "cannot make use of". Those are totally different things in English.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Genestealer Cults units therefore cannot make use of
any of the rules listed in this section (this includes the Detachment abilities, Stratagems, bio-artefacts, psychic
powers, Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives described in this section), and instead have their own rules.

This is pretty clear, GSC units cant use any of these rules, nor can they benefit from it.

It does not say "cannot benefit", it says "cannot make use of". Those are totally different things in English.

We all know GW has the grammatical ability of a 10 year old when it comes to rules writing. Therefore, if they say "cannot make use" they mean it just like that. GSC units cant use any tyranid rules, cant benefit from it, just no to any tyranid rules described in that section.

But that's categorically not what the ruling says, is it?

GSC cannot make use of is not the same as 'cannot benefit from'.

So whilst a Magus cannot access the Hive Mind powers, he could, potentially, have a Hive Mind power cast upon him by a Tyranid <hive fleet> Psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's all about the qualifiers.

The quoted rule relates to a Battleforged Army. In order to get the goodies, a single detachment must have both Tyranid and say, <Behemoth> Keywords. This is much like every other faction.

So one couldn't have some Rusted Claw, a heap of Behemoth and a light garnish of Leviathan in a single detachment, and get Battleforged.

You could however take all three as separate detachments, and each in turn would be Battleforged.

And that rule has no bearing on later uses of Tyranid as a keyword. If Catalyst specifies the target should be friendly, and have the Tyranid keyword, then <Cult Creed> or <Hive Fleet> plays no role in that targeting. So all three could, potentially, cast powers upon each other, unless the power has an additional requirement that it doesn't meet.

 Eihnlazer wrote:


The powers affect friendly TYRANID models.

GSC's do unfortunately have a clause stating they don't benefit however.

So a nuerothrope could target a GSC unit with the TYRANID keyword, but the unit would gain no benefit due to their own rules.

I'm genuinely curious. Show me where it says that and the argument is over. The only rules I've seen is with "make use of" which is not the same as benefit.

But I don't think mincing definitions of words randomly is good for a rules debate. If you are saying RAI they can't benefit from them fine. But I don't see how you can come to that conclusion with RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But that's categorically not what the ruling says, is it?

GSC cannot make use of is not the same as 'cannot benefit from'.

So whilst a Magus cannot access the Hive Mind powers, he could, potentially, have a Hive Mind power cast upon him by a Tyranid <hive fleet> Psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's all about the qualifiers.

The quoted rule relates to a Battleforged Army. In order to get the goodies, a single detachment must have both Tyranid and say, <Behemoth> Keywords. This is much like every other faction.

So one couldn't have some Rusted Claw, a heap of Behemoth and a light garnish of Leviathan in a single detachment, and get Battleforged.

You could however take all three as separate detachments, and each in turn would be Battleforged.

And that rule has no bearing on later uses of Tyranid as a keyword. If Catalyst specifies the target should be friendly, and have the Tyranid keyword, then <Cult Creed> or <Hive Fleet> plays no role in that targeting. So all three could, potentially, cast powers upon each other, unless the power has an additional requirement that it doesn't meet.

I agree that is what is being said that blurb is supposed to be put in place of the section that tells you how to be battleforged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Opiee wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:


The powers affect friendly TYRANID models.

GSC's do unfortunately have a clause stating they don't benefit however.

So a nuerothrope could target a GSC unit with the TYRANID keyword, but the unit would gain no benefit due to their own rules.

I'm genuinely curious. Show me where it says that and the argument is over. The only rules I've seen is with "make use of" which is not the same as benefit.

But I don't think mincing definitions of words randomly is good for a rules debate. If you are saying RAI they can't benefit from them fine. But I don't see how you can come to that conclusion with RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But that's categorically not what the ruling says, is it?

GSC cannot make use of is not the same as 'cannot benefit from'.

So whilst a Magus cannot access the Hive Mind powers, he could, potentially, have a Hive Mind power cast upon him by a Tyranid <hive fleet> Psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's all about the qualifiers.

The quoted rule relates to a Battleforged Army. In order to get the goodies, a single detachment must have both Tyranid and say, <Behemoth> Keywords. This is much like every other faction.

So one couldn't have some Rusted Claw, a heap of Behemoth and a light garnish of Leviathan in a single detachment, and get Battleforged.

You could however take all three as separate detachments, and each in turn would be Battleforged.

And that rule has no bearing on later uses of Tyranid as a keyword. If Catalyst specifies the target should be friendly, and have the Tyranid keyword, then <Cult Creed> or <Hive Fleet> plays no role in that targeting. So all three could, potentially, cast powers upon each other, unless the power has an additional requirement that it doesn't meet.

I agree that is what is being said that blurb is supposed to be put in place of the section that tells you how to be battleforged.

One last thing. The chaos codex has the SAME blurb in their codex. Are there any instances of this question being answered in their FAQs

Opiee wrote:
One last thing. The chaos codex has the SAME blurb in their codex. Are there any instances of this question being answered in their FAQs

Firstly, what the Chaos FAQ says has no bearing on what the rules are for Tyranids, bespoke nature of Rules and/or Special Snowflake FAQs and whatnot.

Second, Tyranids and Chaos Daemons are given errata/Special Snowflake FAQ to prevent "mixing" while the Heretic Astartes Death Guard, Heretic Astartes Thousand Sons and Heretic Astartes Chaos Space Marines codexes explicitly allow mixing both via RaW and FAQ (e.g. Heretic Astartes Chaos Space Marines stratagems being usable on Death Guard units due to the correct keywords being present).