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So I'm new to the custodes army and want a rule clarification. does the bikes Hurricane bolters use the new rules as well, if so its super powerful don't you think? thats always 12 shots and 24 if its within rapid fire range? unless I'm reading it wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean 24 if its in half range.

ballzonya wrote:
So I'm new to the custodes army and want a rule clarification. does the bikes Hurricane bolters use the new rules as well, if so its super powerful don't you think? thats always 12 shots and 24 if its within rapid fire range? unless I'm reading it wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean 24 if its in half range.

Custodes don't get the Bolter rule.

Unfortunately, it only applies to models with the ADEPTUS ASTARTES and HERETEIC ASTARTES keywords, Vertus Praetors do not have these keywords, and I don’t think anything else in their codex does either.
Generally, only models from the Space marine and Chaos Codex’s have the correct keyword.

Oh i got it lol sorry.

ballzonya wrote:
So I'm new to the custodes army and want a rule clarification. does the bikes Hurricane bolters use the new rules as well, if so its super powerful don't you think? thats always 12 shots and 24 if its within rapid fire range? unless I'm reading it wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean 24 if its in half range.

Ignoring the fact Custodes don't get it...

Other than that the beta rule follows the same RF rules with 2 exceptions. If you stand still you get to double tap and these rules apply even if you move if you're a bike, terminator, centurion or vehicle (with the relevant keywords). So, for the sake of completeness (because, you never know they might give it to Custodes. It is a beta rule after all) a Vertus Praetor would always get 12 shots, whether he moved, was stationary or standing within 2" of his target as he is armed with a SINGLE hurricane bolter (not 2, like a LRC) that is rapid fire 6.

Now, to be fair, I thought a Land Raider is a Land raider is a land raider?

A Land raider by any other codex is just the same? That seems like a dumb thing.

BaconCatBug - I summon you and your growing list of Codex based ridiculousness!

The pinnacle of Astartes engineering will suddenly fail to be as good, if it is placed in a list of even more genetically superior creations.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Now, to be fair, I thought a Land Raider is a Land raider is a land raider?

A Land raider by any other codex is just the same? That seems like a dumb thing.

BaconCatBug - I summon you and your growing list of Codex based ridiculousness!

The pinnacle of Astartes engineering will suddenly fail to be as good, if it is placed in a list of even more genetically superior creations.

Nope. Same reason SoB (or =][=) Rhinos don't get the rule.

Fluff reason- Custodes aren't drilled in the same fighting techniques as Astartes; they may be physically better, but that's not the role they're trained for.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Now, to be fair, I thought a Land Raider is a Land raider is a land raider?

A Land raider by any other codex is just the same? That seems like a dumb thing.

BaconCatBug - I summon you and your growing list of Codex based ridiculousness!

The pinnacle of Astartes engineering will suddenly fail to be as good, if it is placed in a list of even more genetically superior creations.

Nope. Same reason SoB (or =][=) Rhinos don't get the rule.

Fluff reason- Custodes aren't drilled in the same fighting techniques as Astartes; they may be physically better, but that's not the role they're trained for.

As a matter of fact, they are literally better. Their BS is 2+, meaning they are slightly worse than "NEVER MISS". Thematically it does not stand that Custards can wield Storm Bolters with the same or better efficiency that regular day 1 marines can. SoB I understand, they are regular humans.

Just because you're a better shot with something doesn't mean you're drilled in the ins and outs of the weapon. Game wise, a Custode could pick up a rock and hit something on a 2+.

The Bolter is as much of the primary weapon of an Astartes as the Spear is to the Custodes, so that is where their primary skills will lie.

You can argue thematics all you want, but by that logic the Grand Emprah won't get Bolter Discipline. Tell me the Master of Mankind can't shoot bolters better than a day 1 marine.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You can argue thematics all you want, but by that logic the Grand Emprah won't get Bolter Discipline. Tell me the Master of Mankind can't shoot bolters better than a day 1 marine.

According to the rules, no, he can't, unless he has the Adeptus Astartes keyword.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You can argue thematics all you want, but by that logic the Grand Emprah won't get Bolter Discipline. Tell me the Master of Mankind can't shoot bolters better than a day 1 marine.

If Emps ever got 40K rules, he wouldn't get Bolter Discipline because he wouldn't has a RF Bolt weapon at all (most likely). So there is no point is discussing how "ridiculous" you think it is that unit X with a bolter doesn't get the rule.
A line had to be drawn somewhere, otherwise just change the rule for RF for everyone.

The Bolter Discipline rule is decent, though I still think it should just be +1 shot if one of the 3 conditions are met, in addition to double shots at half range.
So a Tactical Marine would get 2 shots at 24" if stationary, or 3 shots in 12". A Terminator would be 3 shots all the time, or 5 shots at half range.

-

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You can argue thematics all you want, but by that logic the Grand Emprah won't get Bolter Discipline. Tell me the Master of Mankind can't shoot bolters better than a day 1 marine.

It's a balance-related change. It doesn't have to make sense in terms of the background.

Slipspace wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You can argue thematics all you want, but by that logic the Grand Emprah won't get Bolter Discipline. Tell me the Master of Mankind can't shoot bolters better than a day 1 marine.

It's a balance-related change. It doesn't have to make sense in terms of the background.

Rules /=/ Fluff

Slipspace wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You can argue thematics all you want, but by that logic the Grand Emprah won't get Bolter Discipline. Tell me the Master of Mankind can't shoot bolters better than a day 1 marine.

It's a balance-related change. It doesn't have to make sense in terms of the background.

I mean, you're kinda right. It really should make some background sense, but I guess it doesn't have to.
In this case, however, I think it does make sense. Astartes, whether Adeptus or Hereticus, using RF Bolt weapons to their full potential makes fluff sense. The two were seemingly designed for each other.
So while Custodes/Sisters/Guard might be able to use Bolters (and Custodes would hit better with them), none of those are Astartes, so they aren't going to get MORE out of the weapon like an Astartes can.

It's actually impressive in itself the Sister/Guard can wield a bolter in the first place. And Custodes prefer their bolters on sticks.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Rules /=/ Fluff

The execution does not always reflect this, but yes, I have always thought GW tries to match the 2.

-

 Galef wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You can argue thematics all you want, but by that logic the Grand Emprah won't get Bolter Discipline. Tell me the Master of Mankind can't shoot bolters better than a day 1 marine.

It's a balance-related change. It doesn't have to make sense in terms of the background.

I mean, you're kinda right. It really should make some background sense, but I guess it doesn't have to.
In this case, however, I think it does make sense. Astartes, whether Adeptus or Hereticus, using RF Bolt weapons to their full potential makes fluff sense. The two were seemingly designed for each other.
So while Custodes/Sisters/Guard might be able to use Bolters (and Custodes would hit better with them), none of those are Astartes, so they aren't going to get MORE out of the weapon like an Astartes can.

It's actually impressive in itself the Sister/Guard can wield a bolter in the first place. And Custodes prefer their bolters on sticks.

-

Sister/Guard Bolters are modified are they not?

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Sister/Guard Bolters are modified are they not?

I think there has been some debate around that, but the way I see it, either:
A) They are different pattern bolters to accommodate non-super humans, and therefore would NOT be the same and justifies not getting Bolter Discipline or
B) They are the same pattern bolters and therefore a bit unwieldy for non-super humans and also justifies not getting Bolter Discipline.

Either way, there is "fluff" to justify non-Astartes not getting Bolter Discipline. Someone not accepting this fluff is a completely different issue, but the fluff is there nonetheless

-

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Now, to be fair, I thought a Land Raider is a Land raider is a land raider?

A Land raider by any other codex is just the same? That seems like a dumb thing.

BaconCatBug - I summon you and your growing list of Codex based ridiculousness!

The pinnacle of Astartes engineering will suddenly fail to be as good, if it is placed in a list of even more genetically superior creations.

A <Land Raider> is a <Land Raider> but the bolter rule doesn't apply to <Land Raider> it applies to <Adeptus Astartes> and Custodes do not have that keyword.

There is nothing ridiculous about it.

 Galef wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Sister/Guard Bolters are modified are they not?

I think there has been some debate around that, but the way I see it, either:
A) They are different pattern bolters to accommodate non-super humans, and therefore would NOT be the same and justifies not getting Bolter Discipline or
B) They are the same pattern bolters and therefore a bit unwieldy for non-super humans and also justifies not getting Bolter Discipline.

Either way, there is "fluff" to justify non-Astartes not getting Bolter Discipline. Someone not accepting this fluff is a completely different issue, but the fluff is there nonetheless

-

Based on the Emperor's Gift non Astartes get smaller Bolters. An Inquisitor has a standard Marine one but it's oversized and needs magic weight reducing bits to not tear her arm out of its socket.

 Ordana wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Now, to be fair, I thought a Land Raider is a Land raider is a land raider?

A Land raider by any other codex is just the same? That seems like a dumb thing.

BaconCatBug - I summon you and your growing list of Codex based ridiculousness!

The pinnacle of Astartes engineering will suddenly fail to be as good, if it is placed in a list of even more genetically superior creations.

A <Land Raider> is a <Land Raider> but the bolter rule doesn't apply to <Land Raider> it applies to <Adeptus Astartes> and Custodes do not have that keyword.

There is nothing ridiculous about it.

We already knew Marines were better at using Custodes weapons than the Custodes (see: SIA on the Watch-Master's Guardian Spear).

I can't believe how slowed people are getting over this beta bolter rule.

#1. It does not impact the game in a meaningful way unless you're deathwatch.

#2. It is a marine specific change because marines are flat out awful. Custodes are good. Sisters are good. Guard are the best army in the game.

#3. Complaining about any rules and dragging the fluff into it is nonsense at this point because the rules duke on the fluff.

 Marmatag wrote:
I can't believe how slowed people are getting over this beta bolter rule.

#1. It does not impact the game in a meaningful way unless you're deathwatch.

#2. It is a marine specific change because marines are flat out awful. Custodes are good. Sisters are good. Guard are the best army in the game.

#3. Complaining about any rules and dragging the fluff into it is nonsense at this point because the rules duke on the fluff.

Sisters are not good -- in fact, they are worse then Marines! At max range a marine outshoots a sister per both points and models. Their faith is a joke, and their weapon selection is Bolter, Flamer or Melta, in an edition where Knights are super common and have a 3++ vs ranged.

Their melee units die to a glance, and are unbelievably slow, so no matter show strong they are, it's a waste of points.


So yeah, add in the fact that Harker is holding and firing a heavy Bolter in his bare arms without wearing a shirt much less armor, and the idea that sisters can't fire a Bolter correctly when wearing power armor because Bolters are too strong is incredibly sexist and insulting.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You can argue thematics all you want, but by that logic the Grand Emprah won't get Bolter Discipline. Tell me the Master of Mankind can't shoot bolters better than a day 1 marine.

I'm pretty sure being a desiccated corpse stuck to a golden commode makes it difficult to wield a bolter properly

 Marmatag wrote:
I can't believe how slowed people are getting over this beta bolter rule.

#1. It does not impact the game in a meaningful way unless you're deathwatch.

Or dare to use Rubric Marines. It's made such a big difference on my board control.

Pleasestop wrote:



So yeah, add in the fluff of Harker firing a heavy Bolter without wearing a shirt much less armor, and the idea that sisters can't fire a Bolter correctly because it's too strong is incredibly sexist and insulting.

What?

Stop dragging gak like that into 40k. Harker is a well known archetype (like all special characters from 5th. Only in 8th did they lock them into being literally what they are with associated regiments etc.). The "big guy" (or lancer), see guys like Ox from the Last Chancers, Blain in Predator, Nikolai in Predators (for a female example we have Vasquez in Aliens). I could go on. He could be literally anything. A woman, a machine. All he is is an archetype. Nothing more.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You can argue thematics all you want, but by that logic the Grand Emprah won't get Bolter Discipline. Tell me the Master of Mankind can't shoot bolters better than a day 1 marine.

I'm pretty sure being a desiccated corpse stuck to a golden commode makes it difficult to wield a bolter properly

Riiight... But he'd have other rules, so who cares? Meaningless argument.

If the Emperor was shooting a bolter worse than a marine, yeah that would be messed up. But it would never happen, regardless of whether he had this rule.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:



So yeah, add in the fluff of Harker firing a heavy Bolter without wearing a shirt much less armor, and the idea that sisters can't fire a Bolter correctly because it's too strong is incredibly sexist and insulting.

What?

Stop dragging gak like that into 40k. Harker is a well known archetype (like all special characters from 5th. Only in 8th did they lock them into being literally what they are with associated regiments etc.). The "big guy" (or lancer), see guys like Ox from the Last Chancers, Blain in Predator, Nikolai in Predators (for a female example we have Vasquez in Aliens). I could go on. He could be literally anything. A woman, a machine. All he is is an archetype. Nothing more.

Except they aren't? They are all men in 40k. But that's not thr point? The point is If anyone can fire a much heavier and more powerful version of a Bolter without wearing a shirt but Women can't fire a standard Bolter because "it's kickback is so strong it will rip the arm right out of their socket if they didn't have power armor" is a completely bogus argument, and reeks of sexism.

Pleasestop wrote:So yeah, add in the fact that Harker is holding and firing a heavy Bolter in his bare arms without wearing a shirt much less armor, and the idea that sisters can't fire a Bolter correctly when wearing power armor because Bolters are too strong is incredibly sexist and insulting.

But those same Catachans, carrying the same bolters as Sisters, also can't fire it like a Marine can. Harker can fire his Heavy Bolter just as well as a Marine can, and just as well as a Sister can. But if Harker had a normal bolter, he'd fire it just as well as the Sister, which is worse than the Space Marine.

That's not sexist at all. Bolters (as in, boltguns, the Rapid Fire weapon) are "apparently" so powerful that only a Space Marine can fire them well enough. Not the burliest Catachan, not the most well armoured Sister - it's not based on gender, it's based on if you're a transhuman demigod trained to maximise the power of that bolter.

You can make an argument for Custodes, but ultimately, it's a gameplay mechanic.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pleasestop wrote:
Except they aren't? They are all men in 40k. But that's not thr point? The point is If anyone can fire a much heavier and more powerful version of a Bolter without wearing a shirt but Women can't fire a standard Bolter because "it's kickback is so strong it will rip the arm right out of their socket if they didn't have power armor" is a completely bogus argument, and reeks of sexism.

But Harker isn't firing a BOLTGUN. He's firing a Heavy Bolter, which he can fire just as well as a Sister, who can fire it just as well as a Space Marine.

Swap Harker's Heavy Bolter for a Boltgun, and he fires it just like any other Catachan.
Plus, doesn't Rocket Girl kinda defeat the argument that only men can carry heavy weapons solo without power armour?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:So yeah, add in the fact that Harker is holding and firing a heavy Bolter in his bare arms without wearing a shirt much less armor, and the idea that sisters can't fire a Bolter correctly when wearing power armor because Bolters are too strong is incredibly sexist and insulting.

But those same Catachans, carrying the same bolters as Sisters, also can't fire it like a Marine can. Harker can fire his Heavy Bolter just as well as a Marine can, and just as well as a Sister can. But if Harker had a normal bolter, he'd fire it just as well as the Sister, which is worse than the Space Marine.

That's not sexist at all. Bolters (as in, boltguns, the Rapid Fire weapon) are "apparently" so powerful that only a Space Marine can fire them well enough. Not the burliest Catachan, not the most well armoured Sister - it's not based on gender, it's based on if you're a transhuman demigod trained to maximise the power of that bolter.

You can make an argument for Custodes, but ultimately, it's a gameplay mechanic.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pleasestop wrote:
Except they aren't? They are all men in 40k. But that's not thr point? The point is If anyone can fire a much heavier and more powerful version of a Bolter without wearing a shirt but Women can't fire a standard Bolter because "it's kickback is so strong it will rip the arm right out of their socket if they didn't have power armor" is a completely bogus argument, and reeks of sexism.

But Harker isn't firing a BOLTGUN. He's firing a Heavy Bolter, which he can fire just as well as a Sister, who can fire it just as well as a Space Marine.

Swap Harker's Heavy Bolter for a Boltgun, and he fires it just like any other Catachan.
Plus, doesn't Rocket Girl kinda defeat the argument that only men can carry heavy weapons solo without power armour?

No it doesn't, since the argument isn't about heavy weapons, it's about a machine gun, and why women apparently can't fire it right compared to space Marines.

The argument given to generally justify it is "The women can't use this gun, they aren't strong enough" but then we see that apparently it's possible for several men to use a even heavier version of this gun, without the armor that Space Marines have. So, the argument that women can't use it because "the knockback is too strong" is a profuoundly sexist argument.

You can argue that rules wise sisters shouldn't have it, even though they are in a worse spot than Marines rulewise, but fluffy wise the arguemnts boil down to;
+Sister isn't strong enough (which is false)
+Sisters don't have the training
+Sisters don't have the ocular implants

Training is maybe the only one you can argue, since both Marines and sisters wear helmets and have targeting systems built into the helmets that they use, but if training was the case, then Custodes should have the rule and they don't, since they train hardr and longer than Marines, and are way stronger and are already better shots. So, don't try and justify it fluffwise becuase it doesn't work.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pleasestop wrote:
Except they aren't? They are all men in 40k. But that's not thr point? The point is If anyone can fire a much heavier and more powerful version of a Bolter without wearing a shirt but Women can't fire a standard Bolter because "it's kickback is so strong it will rip the arm right out of their socket if they didn't have power armor" is a completely bogus argument, and reeks of sexism.

But Harker isn't firing a BOLTGUN. He's firing a Heavy Bolter, which he can fire just as well as a Sister, who can fire it just as well as a Space Marine.

Swap Harker's Heavy Bolter for a Boltgun, and he fires it just like any other Catachan.
Plus, doesn't Rocket Girl kinda defeat the argument that only men can carry heavy weapons solo without power armour?

I really don't wanna go into this quagmire with this person, but yup. Completely forgot about Rocket Girl. Plus every Escher heavy GW have made.

Also, the Catcachan Grenade Launcher model that is literally the aforementioned Vasquez.