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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Rough Riders are and always have been a garbage concept.

The Jackal Alphus is something that the Guard should have gotten first: a scout unit with access to a sniper rifle and a way to reposition quickly while also allowing for nearby units to get a ballistic skill boost.

As a "cavalry charge" unit yeah, that really has no place on the battlefield of the 41st millenium. As motorcycle mounted scouts or dragoons? Hell yes.
   
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w1zard wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Rough Riders are and always have been a garbage concept.

The Jackal Alphus is something that the Guard should have gotten first: a scout unit with access to a sniper rifle and a way to reposition quickly while also allowing for nearby units to get a ballistic skill boost.

As a "cavalry charge" unit yeah, that really has no place on the battlefield of the 41st millenium. As motorcycle mounted scouts or dragoons? Hell yes.
If commanders get a sword for use in combat, a cavalry charge is very 40k.

Eldar get jetbikes with lances...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/04 10:58:15


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 Skinnereal wrote:
Eldar get jetbikes with lances...

Yeah, but that is a jetbike, and LASER lances.
   
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And the IG used a krak grenade lance. Just as impractical.
   
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 Mmmpi wrote:
And the IG used a krak grenade lance. Just as impractical.

There is a big difference between the assumed battlefield performance of a ultra-maneuverable, ulta-fast, hoverbike with a laser lance, and a regular horse with a wooden lance and an RPG tip. The latter wouldn't even be good on the modern battlefield let alone the battlefield of the 41st millennium.
   
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w1zard wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
And the IG used a krak grenade lance. Just as impractical.

There is a big difference between the assumed battlefield performance of a ultra-maneuverable, ulta-fast, hoverbike with a laser lance, and a regular horse with a wooden lance and an RPG tip. The latter wouldn't even be good on the modern battlefield let alone the battlefield of the 41st millennium.


Neither would chainsaw swords or RPG "rifles", but both of those are iconic elements of the setting.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




I want cavalry with lances and no amount of military logic and reasoning will sway me.
(Mega bonus points if you can give them flags and banners.)
There's just something beautiful about blending hi-tech gear with something as ancient and proud as cavalry.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





w1zard wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
And the IG used a krak grenade lance. Just as impractical.

There is a big difference between the assumed battlefield performance of a ultra-maneuverable, ulta-fast, hoverbike with a laser lance, and a regular horse with a wooden lance and an RPG tip. The latter wouldn't even be good on the modern battlefield let alone the battlefield of the 41st millennium.


Meanwhile you have McSpace Marine strapping rockets on his back to hit things with a mallet.

A Krak grenade is a light AT weapon in 40K, a Krak grenade on a stick is just as effective. Besides, there's no reason you can't have (in fluff) a unit with refractor fields and power lances if you want high tech. Keep in mind, that horse is just as fast and maneuverable as the average motorbike.

No one is talking about using them on a modern battlefield. We're talking about using them on a 40K battlefield, where the average rifle has a 500' max range, and artillery has trouble firing over the next hill. There's plenty of room for some of the stranger parts of the Imperium to make itself known. There's also no reason to only have shock cav style rough riders. Give them Str4 Assault 2 (or 3) weapons and call them las carbines. Boom carbiners. Let them retreat from combat, then charge again. Hussars. Give them horse drawn weapons teams, and you have mounted artillery. More special weapons, and you have dragoons.

   
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 Peregrine wrote:
Neither would chainsaw swords or RPG "rifles", but both of those are iconic elements of the setting.

Who says a chainsaw sword and an automatic .75 caliber RPG launcher wouldn't be good? The only reason we aren't using those kinds of things right now is because we can't do it with our current level of technology.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Besides, there's no reason you can't have (in fluff) a unit with refractor fields and power lances if you want high tech.

Sure, but that isn't how rough riders are depicted.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Keep in mind, that horse is just as fast and maneuverable as the average motorbike.

Uh, no they really aren't. Setting aside the top speed difference (which is considerable), bikes are even better across rough terrain due to suspension, and are much more maneuverable at higher speeds.

 Mmmpi wrote:
We're talking about using them on a 40K battlefield, where the average rifle has a 500' max range, and artillery has trouble firing over the next hill.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from either... Lasguns are stated to be even more accurate, and just as deadly as modern day ballistic weapons. Imperial vehicles and ordinance match or surpass modern day equivalents. You are confusing AESTHETIC with performance.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/05 06:19:42


 
   
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w1zard wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
Besides, there's no reason you can't have (in fluff) a unit with refractor fields and power lances if you want high tech.

Sure, but that isn't how rough riders are depicted.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Keep in mind, that horse is just as fast and maneuverable as the average motorbike.

Uh, no they really aren't. Setting aside the top speed difference (which is considerable), bikes are even better across rough terrain due to suspension, and are much more maneuverable at higher speeds.

 Mmmpi wrote:
We're talking about using them on a 40K battlefield, where the average rifle has a 500' max range, and artillery has trouble firing over the next hill.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from either... Lasguns are stated to be even more accurate, and just as deadly as modern day ballistic weapons. Imperial vehicles and ordinance match or surpass modern day equivalents. You are confusing AESTHETIC with performance.


#1. There's no reason they have to be depicted exactly the same way in the codex. In the fluff they're just as varied as the guard itself, with all sorts of different ideas from different planets.

#2. I was referring to rules. But even then, there are places a horse can go, but a motorcycle can't. Also, you can't fuel a motorcycle with grass.

#3. They are, but the scale on the table top, compared to the models means very short range. If we take rules and mix that with fluff however, we find horses that must be enhanced, because a RR unit can move 12, and then charge 12 (though rare, due to the poor odds). That means they can traivers the entire range of a modern or better rifle in less time then it takes the unit in question to fire more than one volley. Damn horses must be on speed.
   
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 Mmmpi wrote:
I was referring to rules. But even then, there are places a horse can go, but a motorcycle can't. Also, you can't fuel a motorcycle with grass.

Fuel for vehicles has several advantages over foodstuffs for mounts. Namely it packs a lot more energy in a smaller space, and is not perishable.

If you're in an environment where: A. The environment itself provides the foodstuffs, and B. The foodstuffs are edible for your mount, and C. The environment can self-sustain the foodstuffs eaten by your mounts. Then you might have an argument. However, I can see that only rarely being the case. For example, if you are in a desert, it's probably better to have 20 gallons of fuel and a motorcycle, than 20 pounds of hay and a horse.

 Mmmpi wrote:
They are, but the scale on the table top, compared to the models means very short range. If we take rules and mix that with fluff however, we find horses that must be enhanced, because a RR unit can move 12, and then charge 12 (though rare, due to the poor odds). That means they can traivers the entire range of a modern or better rifle in less time then it takes the unit in question to fire more than one volley. Damn horses must be on speed.

Why are you trying to use the inaccurate scale of the tabletop game to justify why horse mounted cavalry belong in a 41st millennium army?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/05 06:33:15


 
   
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w1zard wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
I was referring to rules. But even then, there are places a horse can go, but a motorcycle can't. Also, you can't fuel a motorcycle with grass.

Fuel for vehicles has several advantages over foodstuffs for mounts. Namely it packs a lot more energy in a smaller space, and is not perishable.

If you're in an environment where: A. The environment itself provides the foodstuffs, and B. The foodstuffs are edible for your mount, and C. The environment can self-sustain the foodstuffs eaten by your mounts. Then you might have an argument. However, I can see that only rarely being the case. For example, if you are in a desert, it's probably better to have 20 gallons of fuel and a motorcycle, than 20 pounds of hay and a horse.


Most 40K worlds, at least in fluff are the right enviornment to find food. And while promethium is more energy efficient per unit of measure than grass, a motorcycle also uses far more. The Tallarns (and Arabs, and Parthians, and Apache, ect) have had no issues with supplying horses in a desert. Finally, in a pinch you can't eat your motorcycle, or drink it's water.

w1zard wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
They are, but the scale on the table top, compared to the models means very short range. If we take rules and mix that with fluff however, we find horses that must be enhanced, because a RR unit can move 12, and then charge 12 (though rare, due to the poor odds). That means they can traivers the entire range of a modern or better rifle in less time then it takes the unit in question to fire more than one volley. Damn horses must be on speed.

Why are you trying to use the inaccurate scale of the tabletop game to justify why horse mounted cavalry belong in a 41st millennium army?


I'm not using it to justify why it belongs in a 40K army. I'm using it to point out the issues with your argument about weapon ranges. The reason they belong in 40K are the same reason rocket powered mallets belong in 40K. People think it's cool.
   
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Geez, if anybody wants to gallop around on a smelly horse and poke things with long sticks with a bomb attached to them, let them.

If we were about to get new Rough Riders, I'd be glad if they could exchange their poky-explody sticks for Lasguns (or equivalent), to make them very mobile, T3 W2 Guardsmen.

Basically this:
Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/05 08:02:38



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Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Pretty much what I was hoping for.

If we use the Napoleonic era as a model as well, then you might see heavier lasguns for them (the horse holds the battery), or hot shots.
   
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 Mmmpi wrote:
I'm not using it to justify why it belongs in a 40K army. I'm using it to point out the issues with your argument about weapon ranges. The reason they belong in 40K are the same reason rocket powered mallets belong in 40K. People think it's cool.

The difference is, the rocket powered mallet has pseudoscience behind why it is effective on the battlefield of the 41st millennium.

You want cybernetically-enhanced or robo horses? Fine. I still think it would be easier to just have a motorcycle but fine.

Plain jane horses with nothing making them special are already outdated and useless on a MODERN battlefield outside of being beasts of burden. They have no place on a 40k battlefield. You might as well have an entire IG regiment armed with pikes (non power weapon).
   
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Given that the OP's question was what single model you would want, if you could only get one made, I'm not sure why 'an entire line of guardsmen' would be desirable, seeing as how it's either ignoring the actual question, or hoping for an army made of dozens of versions of one model.

So, rather than just listing all the potential new models I'd like to see, or all the resculpts I'd like to see, or all the variants I'd like to see, I'm gonna try to actually answer the OP's question, specifically.

I would like to see an IG supply vehicle. Either a cargo-8, which gets mentioned all the time in the novels, but never shows up in the game, or a basic IG truck, (prior to ork looting). I think it would be a cool addition, kind of like scenery, and it would give you play options, objective options, and modeling options. It would be easy enough to convert to use for GSC use (so rules could appear in WD), as well as Traitor Guard use, and (if it wasn't a de-orkified trukk), Orks could loot it as well. It would work well in Necromunda, as well as in Kill Team.

It wouldn't plug any tactical holes in the game, but I think it would be a hit with a lot of people for a lot of different uses, and it would expand a bit of the 40K universe just past troops and tanks. So despite being a single model, it would have loads of uses.

 
   
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I'd argue that bike troops are as outdated as horses. When was the last time soldiers actually used a bike in combat? Honestly, are there actually any accounts of people riding a bike through a battle, and not just to transport themselves? If you think about it, a bike trooper has all the weaknesses of a cavalryman, that of being exposed and difficult to maneuver. Neither bikes nor horses "belong" on a modern battlefield. The fact that the mount is different doesn't make the trooper any easier or harder to kill. But we're talking about 40k: everything has a place in 40k.

Also, let's also not forget the most noble bicycle infantry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_infantry

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/06 03:49:32


 
   
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Dandelion wrote:
I'd argue that bike troops are as outdated as horses. When was the last time soldiers actually used a bike in combat? Honestly, are there actually any accounts of people riding a bike through a battle, and not just to transport themselves? If you think about it, a bike trooper has all the weaknesses of a cavalryman, that of being exposed and difficult to maneuver. Neither bikes nor horses "belong" on a modern battlefield. The fact that the mount is different doesn't make the trooper any easier or harder to kill. But we're talking about 40k: everything has a place in 40k.

Also, let's also not forget the most noble bicycle infantry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_infantry


Horses have been used as mounts for soldiers up until the 70's and even today there are used by military scouts in rugged terrain. A horse is way more manoeuvrable and useful than a motorcycle in a war theater. Technically, Arbites should probably have acces to horses or similar mounts as they are very efficient to disband poorly armed rioters and very intimidating.
   
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epronovost wrote:
Technically, Arbites should probably have acces to horses or similar mounts as they are very efficient to disband poorly armed rioters and very intimidating.


ooh, that's a good idea
   
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w1zard wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
I'm not using it to justify why it belongs in a 40K army. I'm using it to point out the issues with your argument about weapon ranges. The reason they belong in 40K are the same reason rocket powered mallets belong in 40K. People think it's cool.

The difference is, the rocket powered mallet has pseudoscience behind why it is effective on the battlefield of the 41st millennium.

You want cybernetically-enhanced or robo horses? Fine. I still think it would be easier to just have a motorcycle but fine.

Plain jane horses with nothing making them special are already outdated and useless on a MODERN battlefield outside of being beasts of burden. They have no place on a 40k battlefield. You might as well have an entire IG regiment armed with pikes (non power weapon).


Well if we're going psudoscience, the I can make up any reason I want for horses to be present.

I seem to recall the heavy use of horses in the modern war of Afghanistan. And WWII. Hmmm...

As for pikes, I'm sure there's an Imperial world that does just that. We just haven't seen it yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Follow up, the mounted arbitie sounds cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or even mounted crusaders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for single model, I think a new light tank would be cool. Right now there's SP guns (basalisk, wyvern), assault guns (medusa), AT light tank (Devil Dog) AA (Hydra), and flame tank (Hellhound/banewolf), but no longer ranged combat/recon tank.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/06 05:25:03


 
   
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w1zard wrote:
The difference is, the rocket powered mallet has pseudoscience behind why it is effective on the battlefield of the 41st millennium.


So do the horses. By sheer awesome they slaughter all who dare to stand before them. Bikes lack that level of awesome and would be less effective.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
w1zard wrote:
The difference is, the rocket powered mallet has pseudoscience behind why it is effective on the battlefield of the 41st millennium.


So do the horses. By sheer awesome they slaughter all who dare to stand before them. Bikes lack that level of awesome and would be less effective.


When WFB was a thing I played Brets exclusively. Horses killed more each game than the knights riding them - beware of the horses


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Who says RR has to be on a horse? The codexs show them mounted on huge lizards, bears and other 'animals', depending on their planet of origin. Though we are on about guard, not SM, you don't see Thunderwolf cavalry on horses!

Bike mounted RR would be fine with me, but molded in such a way that the AoS cavalry legs and horses (or demigryph) fit the torso.
   
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Riders with horses and guns would be neat.
Have them take lasguns, with a rifle upgrade. Same str same shots, but d3 damage for say 2 points per 5 riders.
Give them a command version and a heavy weapon version with a big packhorse.
And the upradge to explode lance once a game !

Give them good hats, and done.
   
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 Dr Coconut wrote:
Who says RR has to be on a horse? The codexs show them mounted on huge lizards, bears and other 'animals', depending on their planet of origin. Though we are on about guard, not SM, you don't see Thunderwolf cavalry on horses!

Bike mounted RR would be fine with me, but molded in such a way that the AoS cavalry legs and horses (or demigryph) fit the torso.


Nothing says they have to be on horses. Some people like horses, some like motorcycles. Some like giant lizards. The debate in question is about them ONLY being on motorcycles, and whether or not horses would even be used.
   
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Yea I'm a proponent of the horse mounted rough rider, but I definitely wouldn't mind if options for cold ones, motorcycles, war bears etc existed to give other peoples armies some more variety.
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
So do the horses. By sheer awesome they slaughter all who dare to stand before them. Bikes lack that level of awesome and would be less effective.

That's not how suspension of disbelief works.

If there exists a setting where people fly around and gravity doesn't apply to them, then there must be a reasonable explanation within the setting as to why gravity doesn't work that way. Not explaining it is bad writing.

We can obviously see that horse-mounted tactics don't work in real life anymore, let alone work on a battlefield thousands of years more advanced. Then there must exist an explanation of why it does work IE (robo horses, cyber steeds) for it to be acceptable.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I seem to recall the heavy use of horses in the modern war of Afghanistan. And WWII. Hmmm...

As I have said in another thread... this was desperation. If they could have used vehicles in place of horses, they would have.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Nothing says they have to be on horses. Some people like horses, some like motorcycles. Some like giant lizards. The debate in question is about them ONLY being on motorcycles, and whether or not horses would even be used.

Remember this is a discussion about a NEW MODEL. If it comes down to a choice between horses and motorcycles, it should be motorcycles. I have no problems with people converting their horse-mounted rough riders and saying they are "robo" horses or whatever, even if it's a bit silly. I do have a problem with GW coming out with horse mounted rough rider models and saying they are unmodified, plane jane horses with a straight face, and expecting me to take it seriously.

Dandelion wrote:
I'd argue that bike troops are as outdated as horses. When was the last time soldiers actually used a bike in combat? Honestly, are there actually any accounts of people riding a bike through a battle, and not just to transport themselves? If you think about it, a bike trooper has all the weaknesses of a cavalryman, that of being exposed and difficult to maneuver. Neither bikes nor horses "belong" on a modern battlefield. The fact that the mount is different doesn't make the trooper any easier or harder to kill. But we're talking about 40k: everything has a place in 40k.

Also, let's also not forget the most noble bicycle infantry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_infantry

Motorcycle infantry are a thing even today.

Look them up on youtube, along with "military motorcycle".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/06 15:16:13


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





w1zard wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
So do the horses. By sheer awesome they slaughter all who dare to stand before them. Bikes lack that level of awesome and would be less effective.

That's not how suspension of disbelief works.


That's subjective.

If there exists a setting where people fly around and gravity doesn't apply to them, then there must be a reasonable explanation within the setting as to why gravity doesn't work that way. Not explaining it is bad writing.

"Why does the Imperium use horses?" Because they still find value in them. Done. Explained.

We can obviously see that horse-mounted tactics don't work in real life anymore, let alone work on a battlefield thousands of years more advanced. Then there must exist an explanation of why it does work IE (robo horses, cyber steeds) for it to be acceptable.

Cavalry charge in 2008. Was successful in the face of tanks. And you're telling me a setting that has people drive closer to hit things with swords wouldn't do a cavalry charge? They have entire space marine chapters built around the idea of space sword fighting. As for justification why it works, YOU need further justification. We don't.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I seem to recall the heavy use of horses in the modern war of Afghanistan. And WWII. Hmmm...

As I have said in another thread... this was desperation. If they could have used vehicles in place of horses, they would have.

They had air strikes. They could have infiltrated on foot. They CHOSE to charge on horseback. Why is this so difficult a concept? The horse got them across no mans land quickly enough not to get completely cut apart.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Nothing says they have to be on horses. Some people like horses, some like motorcycles. Some like giant lizards. The debate in question is about them ONLY being on motorcycles, and whether or not horses would even be used.

Remember this is a discussion about a NEW MODEL. If it comes down to a choice between horses and motorcycles, it should be motorcycles. I have no problems with people converting their horse-mounted rough riders and saying they are "robo" horses or whatever, even if it's a bit silly. I do have a problem with GW coming out with horse mounted rough rider models and saying they are unmodified, plane jane horses with a straight face, and expecting me to take it seriously.

It should be horses, there's already a motorcycle kit they can use for conversions (GSC bikes). I find 'plain Jane' Horses completely acceptable. After all, we have plain Jane humans in the game, and they work just fine. Some consider them broken even.

Dandelion wrote:
I'd argue that bike troops are as outdated as horses. When was the last time soldiers actually used a bike in combat? Honestly, are there actually any accounts of people riding a bike through a battle, and not just to transport themselves? If you think about it, a bike trooper has all the weaknesses of a cavalryman, that of being exposed and difficult to maneuver. Neither bikes nor horses "belong" on a modern battlefield. The fact that the mount is different doesn't make the trooper any easier or harder to kill. But we're talking about 40k: everything has a place in 40k.

Also, let's also not forget the most noble bicycle infantry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_infantry

Motorcycle infantry are a thing even today.

Look them up on youtube, along with "military motorcycle".


Some bike units had side cars, but they really didn't see much combat, and were more for back line patrols. German motorcycle units were primarily scouts, not main combat units, meanwhile, several armies on both sides maintained their cavalry, despite having access to motorcycles. The Germans didn't because the Poles wiped them out.
   
 
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