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What if tactical marines could take their actions out of phase? During each phase, they could choose which action to make, provided they don't take any single action more than once per turn.

That's stupid, because why wouldn't Vet units be able to do the same?
1. Cut them down by a point
2. Bolter buffs have been discussed forever
3. Change the way they buy their special and heavy weapons

Bam, done. You don't have to change the core of the unit, either.

Just drop it's points to 10 and improve the bolter rule a little bit to give them 2 shots at 24 if still or 3 shots if they are still in rapid fire range. Then I can see them being taken. 300 points for 30 marines - hard to remove and pack a punch up close.

Seriosuly - compared to the 180 points for the loyal 32...how can you argue against that. If you add HQ's to those marines you are easily getting 2 batallions to 1. Totally balanced.

This has been pretty much discussed to death, revived, defiled, and murdered again.

Marines are pretty mild, couple tweaks to the new beta rule would be fine. Shaving of a point or 2 would help as well, more to make a difference between them and intercessors. Currently 20 points for double the wounds with a min squad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's stupid, because why wouldn't Vet units be able to do the same?

because the tactical square are deployed to be adaptable; whereas vets, devs and scouts are all set out to do specific things on the battlefield. its fluffy and, doesnt fudge with points, doesent give any wacky double activation shenanigans and gives tacticals a role that no other units in the army fills, rather than trying to have a race to cheaper and cheaper units.

 davou wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's stupid, because why wouldn't Vet units be able to do the same?

because the tactical square are deployed to be adaptable; whereas vets, devs and scouts are all set out to do specific things on the battlefield. its fluffy and, doesnt fudge with points, doesent give any wacky double activation shenanigans and gives tacticals a role that no other units in the army fills, rather than trying to have a race to cheaper and cheaper units.

Right - the issue is that the word 'adaptable' simply means 'not good at anything' for marines.

I think it would help if they were better at combat than Devastators, shootier than Assault Marines, hard than Scouts, and cheaper than Vets.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just drop it's points to 10 and improve the bolter rule a little bit to give them 2 shots at 24 if still or 3 shots if they are still in rapid fire range. Then I can see them being taken. 300 points for 30 marines - hard to remove and pack a punch up close.

Seriosuly - compared to the 180 points for the loyal 32...how can you argue against that. If you add HQ's to those marines you are easily getting 2 batallions to 1. Totally balanced.

Lmao 10 points is so low, you dont get anywhere if you always compare them to the single op troop choice in this game.

and the bolter rule was leaked once and thats why its published, its a bad rule fluff wise and game wise needs a lot of points adjustments ( deathwatch, stormbolters)

a better solution would be for tournaments to just ban "cheap troops" and thus making their meta fundamentally different from the meta outside of tournaments. imperial soup looks very different when guardsmen and vanguard are banned. or when tau cant load up on drones.

Banning units is a stupid idea and you should feel bad for even suggesting it.

*Tunes olde-tymie piano*

Ahem...

*Begins playing jaunty, olde-tymie jingle-like tune*

Marines just need to be chee-eeper!

*Bows, leaves stage*

Ok, idea for Tacs ripped straight from DoW1.

Pay CP X, change unit tactical model's weapon to X (off SM Weapons list). Any squad of 4 (5 w/ SGT) can change their outfit at any time to any combination (ala DW) as long as CP Remains.

 ionusx wrote:
a better solution would be for tournaments to just ban "cheap troops" and thus making their meta fundamentally different from the meta outside of tournaments. imperial soup looks very different when guardsmen and vanguard are banned. or when tau cant load up on drones.

Ah yes, people shouldn't be able to use their armies because some things are broken. How about actually just fix the problem and give marines Primaris stats like they always should have had.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
a better solution would be for tournaments to just ban "cheap troops" and thus making their meta fundamentally different from the meta outside of tournaments. imperial soup looks very different when guardsmen and vanguard are banned. or when tau cant load up on drones.

Ah yes, people shouldn't be able to use their armies because some things are broken. How about actually just fix the problem and give marines Primaris stats like they always should have had.

And then what do Primaris get?

You need to make the base Marine work, simple as that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greatbigtree wrote:
*Tunes olde-tymie piano*

Ahem...

*Begins playing jaunty, olde-tymie jingle-like tune*

Marines just need to be chee-eeper!

*Bows, leaves stage*

And I've already explained why that doesn't work.

 ionusx wrote:
a better solution would be for tournaments to just ban "cheap troops" and thus making their meta fundamentally different from the meta outside of tournaments. imperial soup looks very different when guardsmen and vanguard are banned. or when tau cant load up on drones.

So Guard just... Don't get to play in tournaments? Neither do Ad Mech? Where is the "cheap" line drawn? Can Sisters play? Can Genestealer Cult?

And then what do Primaris get?

You need to make the base Marine work, simple as that.

Nothing. They don't need anything. Primaris and normal marines should be one and the same. Always should have been since the start of 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
a better solution would be for tournaments to just ban "cheap troops" and thus making their meta fundamentally different from the meta outside of tournaments. imperial soup looks very different when guardsmen and vanguard are banned. or when tau cant load up on drones.

So Guard just... Don't get to play in tournaments? Neither do Ad Mech? Where is the "cheap" line drawn? Can Sisters play? Can Genestealer Cult?

I guess T'au can't. No fire warriors or drones.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

And then what do Primaris get?

You need to make the base Marine work, simple as that.

Nothing. They don't need anything. Primaris and normal marines should be one and the same. Always should have been since the start of 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
a better solution would be for tournaments to just ban "cheap troops" and thus making their meta fundamentally different from the meta outside of tournaments. imperial soup looks very different when guardsmen and vanguard are banned. or when tau cant load up on drones.

So Guard just... Don't get to play in tournaments? Neither do Ad Mech? Where is the "cheap" line drawn? Can Sisters play? Can Genestealer Cult?

I guess T'au can't. No fire warriors or drones.

Well the can of worms is opened. Primaris exist.
There's a way to make the two coexist without killing the unique dynamics of the unit entries. We know the roles of the units, but the question of how to make them perform those roles is tricky.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

And then what do Primaris get?

You need to make the base Marine work, simple as that.

Nothing. They don't need anything. Primaris and normal marines should be one and the same. Always should have been since the start of 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
a better solution would be for tournaments to just ban "cheap troops" and thus making their meta fundamentally different from the meta outside of tournaments. imperial soup looks very different when guardsmen and vanguard are banned. or when tau cant load up on drones.

So Guard just... Don't get to play in tournaments? Neither do Ad Mech? Where is the "cheap" line drawn? Can Sisters play? Can Genestealer Cult?

I guess T'au can't. No fire warriors or drones.

Well the can of worms is opened. Primaris exist.
There's a way to make the two coexist without killing the unique dynamics of the unit entries. We know the roles of the units, but the question of how to make them perform those roles is tricky.

They don't need to be unique entries. I'm saying squat regular marines. Get rid of them as is. As far as I see the Primaris statline feels far more like marines. Primaris Codex 2.0 with the ability to let you run your normal marines as primaris!

And what exactly is the difference between a tac marine and intercessors? +1W? How exactly do they differ in roles?

 skchsan wrote:
And what exactly is the difference between a tac marine and intercessors? +1W? How exactly do they differ in roles?

Oh, oh I know! An attack and an AP. Although arguably the AP isn't needed for the 'Marine' feel, but I think it helps.Though it'd be nice for chainswords to get it to.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
...They don't need to be unique entries. I'm saying squat regular marines. Get rid of them as is. As far as I see the Primaris statline feels far more like marines. Primaris Codex 2.0 with the ability to let you run your normal marines as primaris!

Further: Declare Primaris infantry a resculpt of normal infantry rather than a distinct unit and allow your "Primaris Tacticals" to take special/heavy weapons.

Ugh. This topic seems to pop up every week.

Make Tacticals cost 11 points, make the beta Bolter rule official... Let it ride for half a year to a year and see what happens.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
...They don't need to be unique entries. I'm saying squat regular marines. Get rid of them as is. As far as I see the Primaris statline feels far more like marines. Primaris Codex 2.0 with the ability to let you run your normal marines as primaris!

Further: Declare Primaris infantry a resculpt of normal infantry rather than a distinct unit and allow your "Primaris Tacticals" to take special/heavy weapons.

Bingo. This man has got the answer. /thread.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
a better solution would be for tournaments to just ban "cheap troops" and thus making their meta fundamentally different from the meta outside of tournaments. imperial soup looks very different when guardsmen and vanguard are banned. or when tau cant load up on drones.

Ah yes, people shouldn't be able to use their armies because some things are broken. How about actually just fix the problem and give marines Primaris stats like they always should have had.

there is no change you can make to basline marines that wouldnt absurdly break the game to make them more played in 40k thats just the nature of things. prior to 7th edition tactical marines and their ilk basically beyond devestators in sentinels of terra gunlines or mandatory troops choices to take space wolf TWC's didnt exist in "meta" lists and by 7th they only saw play because you had outlandish formations like the gladius and and the ravenguards ravenhawk assault force which made stuff with a "marine" baseline even remotely practical.

what we need is for a hard punishing and painful divide between tournament play and normal play to exist between 40k tabletops in stores and 40k at events that makes them fundamentally different and it must be the tournaments and other events that make the first move NOT flat 40k. and by changing this rule and basically a hard ban of obligatory troop filler units that are taken "because it is the least expensive" we establish that hard line. imperial soup with slamguinius and guardsmen CP batteries start to look very different when your core troops need to become something that is normally "suboptimal" and by that same token so do other meta lists who can no longer bank on some cheap troop to fill a slot and instead they must op for something more.

while BOLS is hot garbadge im tired its 5am ive been up all night reviewing paperwork from various incidents at work for a discussion with my superiors on wednesday freeing up tuesday to instead paint miniatures for the first time since the rapture. i will site their list for current most popular lists and armies based on their communities reporting

March 6th – 2019
1: AM
2 Imperial knights
3 spacey marines (not counting secondary codecies they are classified seperately)
4. tau
5. orks
6. DE
7. nids

and heres the most wins:

1. AM
2. IK
3. DE
4. tau
5. ork
6. spacey marines

Source: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/03/40k-top-list-of-the-week-march-6th-the-cult-arises.html

here we can see some very plain evidence. currently the most played armies and the ones with the highest wins are at present guardsmen, tau, orks as a constant who posses cheap as gak troops that free up points for allies or other things, or that can be taken in such bulk that they can form bubble wrap meat walls that are a million times more useful then any of their baselines or wargear. some will note how knights exist on this list, but i would like to table the fact that every list featuring knights is soup with a castellan and its very unlikely pure knight lists are seeing table success to such a degree and that their result is artificially high. dark eldar are doing well i suspect because they prey on cheap junk infantry and even elite infantry making stuff like ork nobz, broadsides and bullgryn see much less practical value. but even they have cheap troops in wyches and warriors as well as the all powerful jetbike and jetbikes (and bikes) are so strong that unless you physically started making them 6" move units and taking away the pile of special rules around them you could never make them bad in ANY edition.

and by limiting their troops choices to things that are less cheap filler or blob wall meatshields we basically create a divide between regular 40k and tournaments. if 40k normal does it and punishes scout spam in marines and gretchin spam in orks for mandatory troops we change jack and squat. fact is that normal 40k is dictated by tournament play. thats the way its always been since time immemorial. and if events and "the meta" wont bend a knee to fix a problem then you deserve to be imperial soup'd with castellans until the day GW closes shop

 ionusx wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
a better solution would be for tournaments to just ban "cheap troops" and thus making their meta fundamentally different from the meta outside of tournaments. imperial soup looks very different when guardsmen and vanguard are banned. or when tau cant load up on drones.

Ah yes, people shouldn't be able to use their armies because some things are broken. How about actually just fix the problem and give marines Primaris stats like they always should have had.

there is no change you can make to basline marines that wouldnt absurdly break the game to make them more played in 40k thats just the nature of things. prior to 7th edition tactical marines and their ilk basically beyond devestators in sentinels of terra gunlines or mandatory troops choices to take space wolf TWC's didnt exist in "meta" lists and by 7th they only saw play because you had outlandish formations like the gladius and and the ravenguards ravenhawk assault force which made stuff with a "marine" baseline even remotely practical.

what we need is for a hard punishing and painful divide between tournament play and normal play to exist between 40k tabletops in stores and 40k at events that makes them fundamentally different and it must be the tournaments and other events that make the first move NOT flat 40k. and by changing this rule and basically a hard ban of obligatory troop filler units that are taken "because it is the least expensive" we establish that hard line. imperial soup with slamguinius and guardsmen CP batteries start to look very different when your core troops need to become something that is normally "suboptimal" and by that same token so do other meta lists who can no longer bank on some cheap troop to fill a slot and instead they must op for something more.

while BOLS is hot garbadge im tired its 5am ive been up all night reviewing paperwork from various incidents at work for a discussion with my superiors on wednesday freeing up tuesday to instead paint miniatures for the first time since the rapture. i will site their list for current most popular lists and armies based on their communities reporting

March 6th – 2019
1: AM
2 Imperial knights
3 spacey marines (not counting secondary codecies they are classified seperately)
4. tau
5. orks
6. DE
7. nids

and heres the most wins:

1. AM
2. IK
3. DE
4. tau
5. ork
6. spacey marines

Source: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/03/40k-top-list-of-the-week-march-6th-the-cult-arises.html

here we can see some very plain evidence. currently the most played armies and the ones with the highest wins are at present guardsmen, tau, orks as a constant who posses cheap as gak troops that free up points for allies or other things, or that can be taken in such bulk that they can form bubble wrap meat walls that are a million times more useful then any of their baselines or wargear. some will note how knights exist on this list, but i would like to table the fact that every list featuring knights is soup with a castellan and its very unlikely pure knight lists are seeing table success to such a degree and that their result is artificially high. dark eldar are doing well i suspect because they prey on cheap junk infantry and even elite infantry making stuff like ork nobz, broadsides and bullgryn see much less practical value. but even they have cheap troops in wyches and warriors as well as the all powerful jetbike and jetbikes (and bikes) are so strong that unless you physically started making them 6" move units and taking away the pile of special rules around them you could never make them bad in ANY edition.

and by limiting their troops choices to things that are less cheap filler or blob wall meatshields we basically create a divide between regular 40k and tournaments. if 40k normal does it and punishes scout spam in marines and gretchin spam in orks for mandatory troops we change jack and squat. fact is that normal 40k is dictated by tournament play. thats the way its always been since time immemorial. and if events and "the meta" wont bend a knee to fix a problem then you deserve to be imperial soup'd with castellans until the day GW closes shop

But.... We don't have other troops. Guard don't have non cheap filler troops? T'au don't have anything cheaper than a fire warrior? Your proposition is literally telling these armies that are based around cheap troops to go feth themselves.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Ugh. This topic seems to pop up every week.

Make Tacticals cost 11 points, make the beta Bolter rule official... Let it ride for half a year to a year and see what happens.

Good job, make marines another gunline army.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
...They don't need to be unique entries. I'm saying squat regular marines. Get rid of them as is. As far as I see the Primaris statline feels far more like marines. Primaris Codex 2.0 with the ability to let you run your normal marines as primaris!

Further: Declare Primaris infantry a resculpt of normal infantry rather than a distinct unit and allow your "Primaris Tacticals" to take special/heavy weapons.

Bingo. This man has got the answer. /thread.

This.

 skchsan wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
...They don't need to be unique entries. I'm saying squat regular marines. Get rid of them as is. As far as I see the Primaris statline feels far more like marines. Primaris Codex 2.0 with the ability to let you run your normal marines as primaris!

Further: Declare Primaris infantry a resculpt of normal infantry rather than a distinct unit and allow your "Primaris Tacticals" to take special/heavy weapons.

Bingo. This man has got the answer. /thread.

This.

Well guess what? They already exist as two distinct types of Marines. Get over it. Therefore the real fix is to figure out how they can coexist in the same codex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
...They don't need to be unique entries. I'm saying squat regular marines. Get rid of them as is. As far as I see the Primaris statline feels far more like marines. Primaris Codex 2.0 with the ability to let you run your normal marines as primaris!

Further: Declare Primaris infantry a resculpt of normal infantry rather than a distinct unit and allow your "Primaris Tacticals" to take special/heavy weapons.

Bingo. This man has got the answer. /thread.

This.

Well guess what? They already exist as two distinct types of Marines. Get over it. Therefore the real fix is to figure out how they can coexist in the same codex.

Or to condense them in the next SM codex. At this point we'll just have to agree to disagree. Both options are possible.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
...They don't need to be unique entries. I'm saying squat regular marines. Get rid of them as is. As far as I see the Primaris statline feels far more like marines. Primaris Codex 2.0 with the ability to let you run your normal marines as primaris!

Further: Declare Primaris infantry a resculpt of normal infantry rather than a distinct unit and allow your "Primaris Tacticals" to take special/heavy weapons.

Bingo. This man has got the answer. /thread.

This.

Well guess what? They already exist as two distinct types of Marines. Get over it. Therefore the real fix is to figure out how they can coexist in the same codex.

Or to condense them in the next SM codex. At this point we'll just have to agree to disagree. Both options are possible.

The issue to remember is design space. GW did not take any chances with the new stats of units whatsoever. Does something else fall into the old category MEQ used to be?
Then we have to remember other units that are supposed to be just as tough, like Orks for example. We can certainly make the argument they're just as tough as Marines but without the armor. Then we need to scale. It means Terminators get W3, which is stupid silly for reasons I've already outlined in previous threads. Then Paladins get W4, which means Custodes need to be bumped up too. It's a mess unless you're willing to take the time to recalculate all those values.