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bananathug wrote: I really want re-roll saves of 1. Maybe that's just because I roll an inordinate amount of 1s but I feel this would go a long way to improve marine durability, smooth out variance (getting marine saves closer to "average") without adding too much book-keeping (ignoring -1 ap) or stepping on the design space of other armies (2+ saves for power armor).
I'd also love it if the re-roll hits of 1 was a built in trait and captains got actually interesting aura abilities (fearless, re-roll charges, +1 movement, +1 attack in melee, other flavorful things). Would allow marines to not have to castle up and actually go out and do things rather than trying to squeeze as many as you can into a character aura so you're not "wasting" it. Would help smooth out the variance from elite armies not rolling enough dice and allow marines to play in a interesting way (instead of being worse IG gunline castle).
Those two plus the new bolter drill would go a long way. Then they'd just have to look at the primaris (hellblasters, inceptors and aggressors all need changes to keep up with what's going on, could probably be handled in a campaign book with some new "primaris" detachments). DA and SW get their primarchs BA fall to the thirst and chaos viola marines are good to go.
Each of these ideas on their own are bad ideas. Taken all together it just screams that you want the most op army ever. None of these are reasonable suggestions for a balanced game.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
How about giving all the MEQ armies the new red corsair rules, where you get rewarded with bonus command points if you take 3 units of their supposed fluff bread and butter troops, tacticalw, strike squads, chaos space marines, grey hunters, so on so forth ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/21 01:18:55
Rydria wrote: How about giving all the MEQ armies the new red corsair rules, where you get rewarded with bonus command points if you take 3 units of their supposed fluff bread and butter troops, tacticalw, strike squads, chaos space marines, grey hunters, so on so forth ?
We don't have a lot of Strategems we want to use, and we have plenty of HQ units that bring their own + the Ultramarines Warlord Trait.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Re-roll armor saves of 1 increases marine resiliency a little but helps to even out the problems inherent with rolling only a few dice. On average 5 marines are hard to take out but you only get to those averages by rolling buckets of dice and you just don't have buckets of marines on the table so a turn of bad rolling disproportionately punishes marines (as opposed to hordes where you are more likely to hit your averages).
ap0 10 shots hitting on 3s wounding on 4s without the re-rolls there's a 38% chance to do one wound but a 31% chance of doing 2 or greater wounds.
vs with the re-roll 1s you get a 37% chance to deal one wound but only a 16% chance of doing 2 or greater wounds.
Against ap1 32% chance to deal one wound, 29% to deal 2 and 22% chance to do 3 or more but with re-rolls 36% one, 26% 2 and 15% 3 or more. Doesn't make them invincible just less swingy.
Re-rolls of 1 are built in to DA units that don't move and they are in no way broken. Again, increasing offensive out-put by 10ish%. It seems marines are costed with having access to their re-roll bubbles. Instead of forcing them to castle around characters (who would much rather be smashing things in the face given their lack of access to good ranged weapons for the most part) marines would be in a much more interesting place and have some on the table "impact."
I'm not sure why you think these are game breaking abilities. Captains getting unique/interesting bubbles isn't anything game breaking (Helbrecht or Arjac aren't breaking the game.) These seem easy to implement, play with, don't slow down the game much and fit with the marines get re-rolls design that seems like what GW was getting at.
Rydria wrote: How about giving all the MEQ armies the new red corsair rules, where you get rewarded with bonus command points if you take 3 units of their supposed fluff bread and butter troops, tacticalw, strike squads, chaos space marines, grey hunters, so on so forth ?
We don't have a lot of Strategems we want to use, and we have plenty of HQ units that bring their own + the Ultramarines Warlord Trait.
That's all well and good, but what if you don't play Ultramarines?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Rydria wrote: How about giving all the MEQ armies the new red corsair rules, where you get rewarded with bonus command points if you take 3 units of their supposed fluff bread and butter troops, tacticalw, strike squads, chaos space marines, grey hunters, so on so forth ?
We don't have a lot of Strategems we want to use, and we have plenty of HQ units that bring their own + the Ultramarines Warlord Trait.
That's all well and good, but what if you don't play Ultramarines?
Then you have guys like Azrael and Huron that give an additional CP for being warlords.
You also still have the fact that Intercessors and Scouts still fill roles (whether it's done well can be debated), whereas Tactical Marines don't have a role that they're distinguished for. Plopping them down for CP doesn't help them or Space Marines either.
Plus Red Corsairs have the added benefit of getting an additional CP for their pure detachments in the first place. All the Chaos Marines do is bring 2 extra.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Rydria wrote: How about giving all the MEQ armies the new red corsair rules, where you get rewarded with bonus command points if you take 3 units of their supposed fluff bread and butter troops, tacticalw, strike squads, chaos space marines, grey hunters, so on so forth ?
We don't have a lot of Strategems we want to use, and we have plenty of HQ units that bring their own + the Ultramarines Warlord Trait.
That's all well and good, but what if you don't play Ultramarines?
Then you have guys like Azrael and Huron that give an additional CP for being warlords.
You also still have the fact that Intercessors and Scouts still fill roles (whether it's done well can be debated), whereas Tactical Marines don't have a role that they're distinguished for. Plopping them down for CP doesn't help them or Space Marines either.
Plus Red Corsairs have the added benefit of getting an additional CP for their pure detachments in the first place. All the Chaos Marines do is bring 2 extra.
But what if you don't play either of those two chapters?
Not saying this should be the fix, but characters aren't the reason for it not being the fix.
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
Rydria wrote: How about giving all the MEQ armies the new red corsair rules, where you get rewarded with bonus command points if you take 3 units of their supposed fluff bread and butter troops, tacticalw, strike squads, chaos space marines, grey hunters, so on so forth ?
We don't have a lot of Strategems we want to use, and we have plenty of HQ units that bring their own + the Ultramarines Warlord Trait.
That's all well and good, but what if you don't play Ultramarines?
Then you have guys like Azrael and Huron that give an additional CP for being warlords.
You also still have the fact that Intercessors and Scouts still fill roles (whether it's done well can be debated), whereas Tactical Marines don't have a role that they're distinguished for. Plopping them down for CP doesn't help them or Space Marines either.
Plus Red Corsairs have the added benefit of getting an additional CP for their pure detachments in the first place. All the Chaos Marines do is bring 2 extra.
But what if you don't play either of those two chapters?
Not saying this should be the fix, but characters aren't the reason for it not being the fix.
I've already posted why it isn't a good idea either.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Rydria wrote: How about giving all the MEQ armies the new red corsair rules, where you get rewarded with bonus command points if you take 3 units of their supposed fluff bread and butter troops, tacticalw, strike squads, chaos space marines, grey hunters, so on so forth ?
We don't have a lot of Strategems we want to use, and we have plenty of HQ units that bring their own + the Ultramarines Warlord Trait.
That's all well and good, but what if you don't play Ultramarines?
Then you have guys like Azrael and Huron that give an additional CP for being warlords.
You also still have the fact that Intercessors and Scouts still fill roles (whether it's done well can be debated), whereas Tactical Marines don't have a role that they're distinguished for. Plopping them down for CP doesn't help them or Space Marines either.
Plus Red Corsairs have the added benefit of getting an additional CP for their pure detachments in the first place. All the Chaos Marines do is bring 2 extra.
But what if you don't play either of those two chapters?
Not saying this should be the fix, but characters aren't the reason for it not being the fix.
I've already posted why it isn't a good idea either.
Oh I agree, although for different reasons, which is that it's a bandaid fix.
It's an inherent flaw with the CP generation system that's showing it's self and GW isn't willing to take the core problem and fix it.
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
Insectum7 wrote: Compared to the older AP system, the only difference is that Guard get a save now, meaning marines killed 50% more guard under AP.
The other major difference is the loss of templates. Flamers murdered Guard by the dozen in prior editions.
The Captain+Lt aura buffs get you pretty far on the bolter front, and beta bolters greatly inprove results for long range firefights.
Imo the right move now is to buff Flamers.
The issue with the HQ argument is that the Marines can't be under the aura all the time, and they're priced like that. Units need to function on their own, and then the buffers accordingly afterwards.
I would prefer that, but aura HQs is what we got at the moment. Beta bolters did nice things for the marines vs. guard at the same time. Marines now deal MORE damage to guard beyond 12" than they did under AP in the prior few editions. That's without auras, too.
Marines get a save vs Battlecannons, Earthshakers, Hotshots and everything else that was AP 3, the only weapons that are better at killing MEQ now are the AP4 weapons.
I wasn't referencing any MEQ defensive comparison, because I think it's fine as it currently stands. Better offense remains my preference.
I'm not sure what you are intending to say by this. Orks now get a save in situations where they wouldn't in prior editions, true. But they also aren't getting their unmodifiable cover saves at the same time. Plus, like with the Guardsmen above, with beta bolters Marines are dealing more damage to them at a distance over prior editions.
Overall I would have preferred an extra shot at close range on top of beta bolters, and no move penalty, but beta bolters as is has helped.
That's under the pretense of not having moved. I would accept the statement for Terminators, Centurions, and Bikers, but everything else has gone downhill (though I suppose you can make the argument that Sternguard are mostly the same vs thag particular target).
I made a point that I would have rather skipped the move penalty to keep them offensive. That aside. . .
Not really "everything else has gone down hill". Storm Bolters are now four shots instead of two. Assault Cannons are six shots instead of four. Combi-weapons are no longer limited to one shot. Cover helps marines against small arms now. These are very distinct net gains.
Insectum7 wrote: Compared to the older AP system, the only difference is that Guard get a save now, meaning marines killed 50% more guard under AP.
The other major difference is the loss of templates. Flamers murdered Guard by the dozen in prior editions.
The Captain+Lt aura buffs get you pretty far on the bolter front, and beta bolters greatly inprove results for long range firefights.
Imo the right move now is to buff Flamers.
The issue with the HQ argument is that the Marines can't be under the aura all the time, and they're priced like that. Units need to function on their own, and then the buffers accordingly afterwards.
I would prefer that, but aura HQs is what we got at the moment. Beta bolters did nice things for the marines vs. guard at the same time. Marines now deal MORE damage to guard beyond 12" than they did under AP in the prior few editions. That's without auras, too.
Marines get a save vs Battlecannons, Earthshakers, Hotshots and everything else that was AP 3, the only weapons that are better at killing MEQ now are the AP4 weapons.
I wasn't referencing any MEQ defensive comparison, because I think it's fine as it currently stands. Better offense remains my preference.
I'm not sure what you are intending to say by this. Orks now get a save in situations where they wouldn't in prior editions, true. But they also aren't getting their unmodifiable cover saves at the same time. Plus, like with the Guardsmen above, with beta bolters Marines are dealing more damage to them at a distance over prior editions.
Overall I would have preferred an extra shot at close range on top of beta bolters, and no move penalty, but beta bolters as is has helped.
That's under the pretense of not having moved. I would accept the statement for Terminators, Centurions, and Bikers, but everything else has gone downhill (though I suppose you can make the argument that Sternguard are mostly the same vs thag particular target).
I made a point that I would have rather skipped the move penalty to keep them offensive. That aside. . .
Not really "everything else has gone down hill". Storm Bolters are now four shots instead of two. Assault Cannons are six shots instead of four. Combi-weapons are no longer limited to one shot. Cover helps marines against small arms now. These are very distinct net gains.
Combi-Weapons are a sidegrade. It's under the assumption you're alive to use them the next turn, when most units that take that many Combi-Weapons are suicide drops anyway. Storm Bolters I agree are an upgrade for sure, and Assault Cannons outside the units that only get one.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
"Combi-Weapons are a sidegrade. It's under the assumption you're alive to use them the next turn, when most units that take that many Combi-Weapons are suicide drops anyway. Storm Bolters I agree are an upgrade for sure, and Assault Cannons outside the units that only get one."
That's not what sidegrade means.
Sidegrade means each option has it's upsides, but they're about equal.
Interchangeable is the word you're looking for. That's where there's no difference.
That said, Combis have every upside they had previously, plus can be used multiple turns, plus can fire both profiles (although I rarely see that).
That's an upgrade. Maybe not much of one, but it is clearly better.
GrinNfool wrote: Eh I think the best solution to fixing marines is they reduce the AP of any weapon by 1. So ap 1 becomes 0, 2 becomes 1, 3 becomes 2 etc. This keeps them weak to massed fire out of cover, but reduces the power of say, plasma level weaponry against them. Doesn't punish any weapon type any more than another, but helps nudge their survive-ability a touch.
I have tried this fix, and i can safely say, it WORKS wonders, also for terminators.
No, Marines absolutely don't need more durability, they need more firepower. We've already went from weapons ignoring their armor completely to giving them a 5+ at worst, don't make that become a 4+, that's ridiculous, plasma and the likes should definitely be Marine killers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/22 01:57:34
Marine players seam to exist in this weird vacuum where their fluff justifies all kinds of crap regardless of everyone elses fluff or game balance.
It doesn't matter how great Tau weaponry is. SM should be tougher. It doesn't matter how debilitating the shadow in the warp is. SM should just walk right on through it.
It's full on crazy that anyone thinks SM need to be more durable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/22 03:37:30
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Bharring wrote: "Combi-Weapons are a sidegrade. It's under the assumption you're alive to use them the next turn, when most units that take that many Combi-Weapons are suicide drops anyway. Storm Bolters I agree are an upgrade for sure, and Assault Cannons outside the units that only get one."
That's not what sidegrade means.
Sidegrade means each option has it's upsides, but they're about equal.
Interchangeable is the word you're looking for. That's where there's no difference.
That said, Combis have every upside they had previously, plus can be used multiple turns, plus can fire both profiles (although I rarely see that).
That's an upgrade. Maybe not much of one, but it is clearly better.
You missed the downgrade part of them being more expensive for certain types. Combi-Flamers might've gotten cheaper, but Melta and Plasma (and Grav FWIW) all became a lot more expensive.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Bharring wrote: "Combi-Weapons are a sidegrade. It's under the assumption you're alive to use them the next turn, when most units that take that many Combi-Weapons are suicide drops anyway. Storm Bolters I agree are an upgrade for sure, and Assault Cannons outside the units that only get one."
That's not what sidegrade means.
Sidegrade means each option has it's upsides, but they're about equal.
Interchangeable is the word you're looking for. That's where there's no difference.
That said, Combis have every upside they had previously, plus can be used multiple turns, plus can fire both profiles (although I rarely see that).
That's an upgrade. Maybe not much of one, but it is clearly better.
As for firing both profiles, rarely... but it is a definite mathematical boost against hordes. I've particularly been looking at Combi Flamers in a new light, as they are almost a flamer that's D6+2. The bolter hits on a 4+, but the flamer autohits for no downside when firing both. You get a potential Sternguard squad with 10d6+10 bolter hits. 20 dead GEQ. If only the flamer had a 10" range so you could pod it.
Combi plasma costs the same as normal plasma, so no reason not to upgrade.
Bobthehero wrote: No, Marines absolutely don't need more durability, they need more firepower. We've already went from weapons ignoring their armor completely to giving them a 5+ at worst, don't make that become a 4+, that's ridiculous, plasma and the likes should definitely be Marine killers.
The issue is that plasmas are just being handed out like pb&j sandwiches at homeless shelters.
Plasmas used to come with hefty risk that balanced out the rewards. The "safe" plasma option is what tilted the balance and marines are no longer as durablr at a comparative stand point.
The fact of the matter is that there are de facto anti MEQ weapons and anti TEQ weapons, but no de facto anti-horde, anti-vehicle, or anti-titan weapons. Right now the current meta is 'fight horde with horde, vehicle with titans, and titans with titans.
What works for titans works better (if not best) against multi wound infantries but is wasted on hordes. What works for vehicles work better, if not best, when used against MEQ's but is wasted on hordes. With plethora of units with FLY keyword, there simply isn't enough weapons more effective against fly. GW set themselves up for a good base for balancing unit types against unit types but never fully implemented it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/22 15:00:24
I'd like to see what happened if flamers and meltaguns got a 9" range/melta range respectively, just for the synergy with Deep Strike. Maybe that could be added to Salamanders as part of their Chapter Tactic? When you can actually reliably use those weapons they get a lot better.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Sallies are interesting, because they don't need the HQ auras as much as other Marines do.
This matters, because being reliant on HQ auras means you have to play deathball with your list, which keeps you from leveraging many of the Marine's strengths.
Bharring wrote: Sallies are interesting, because they don't need the HQ auras as much as other Marines do.
This matters, because being reliant on HQ auras means you have to play deathball with your list, which keeps you from leveraging many of the Marine's strengths.
It would be interesting if marines were designed so that sergeants have more important role than combi weapon carrier.
Similar to how helix works in a squad of infiltrators, sergeants should be bought as an upgrade to the squad that grants the said squad with mini-aura that affects its own unit only, similar to how dev sergeant benefits the squad with a signum.
Bharring wrote: Sallies are interesting, because they don't need the HQ auras as much as other Marines do.
This matters, because being reliant on HQ auras means you have to play deathball with your list, which keeps you from leveraging many of the Marine's strengths.
Nah they still need it. How far do you really think a single hit or wound reroll goes for a unit already hitting at minimum a 3+?
Not very. I'd argue they're actually one of the worst Chapter Tactics available.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'd like to see what happened if flamers and meltaguns got a 9" range/melta range respectively, just for the synergy with Deep Strike. Maybe that could be added to Salamanders as part of their Chapter Tactic? When you can actually reliably use those weapons they get a lot better.
With a 9" range, that flamer would NOT be able to hit ANYTHING from deepstrike since you deepstrike MORE than 9" away.
I play Custodes and have access to a 12" flamer. It is GLORIOUS! At least when I roll fairly well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/22 15:52:08
"Nah they still need it. How far do you really think a single hit or wound reroll goes for a unit already hitting at minimum a 3+? "
In a squad with a Melta, CombiMelta, and 3 Boltguns? Quite a ways.
Now, the HQ bonus is still great. But when you only care about 1 or 2 weapons in the squad, it's not as impactful on a subfaction that can reroll one already as it is on a faction that can't.
Should I go back and edit "they don't need the HQ auras as much as other Marines do." to include "as much as other Marines do."?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'd like to see what happened if flamers and meltaguns got a 9" range/melta range respectively, just for the synergy with Deep Strike. Maybe that could be added to Salamanders as part of their Chapter Tactic? When you can actually reliably use those weapons they get a lot better.
With a 9" range, that flamer would NOT be able to hit ANYTHING from deepstrike since you deepstrike MORE than 9" away.
I play Custodes and have access to a 12" flamer. It is GLORIOUS! At least when I roll fairly well.
Given Battle Sisters (stratagem for longer-range hand flamers on Seraphim) and GSC (stratagem for closer Deep Strike on Acolytes) it'll probably be a stratagem.
You could call it Overpressure (1CP: Pick a Salamanders Infantry unit. All Flamers, Flamer profiles of combi-weapons, and Heavy Flamers have 12" range this turn.) after the rule on the 30k Blackshields' special flamers bodged to blow through their whole tank in one shot to get longer range.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/22 16:28:38
Bharring wrote: Sallies are interesting, because they don't need the HQ auras as much as other Marines do.
This matters, because being reliant on HQ auras means you have to play deathball with your list, which keeps you from leveraging many of the Marine's strengths.
Nah they still need it. How far do you really think a single hit or wound reroll goes for a unit already hitting at minimum a 3+?
Not very. I'd argue they're actually one of the worst Chapter Tactics available.
It goes very far. (removing save for math simplicity)
No rerolls: .666 x .666 x 3.5 = 1.55 wounds per lascannon.
Rerolls: .888 x .888 x 3.5 = 2.76 wounds per lascannon.
A single weapon has about an 78% increase in hitting power. In a squad with one Lascannon the rerolls are automatic. In a squad with two Lascannons you're unlikely to miss with both (11% chance), so usually you just reroll the single miss, same with wounds. So even though you only get one reroll per "phase" of the weapon shot, the benefit remains high even with multiple weapons. My math gives a 71% increase in overall effectiveness with two weapons, if I did that correctly.
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