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 Ap0k wrote:
I give up trying to explain how terrible these guys are going to be.

Nothing will convince some of you folks until you play with them yourselves and see your 360~pt unit vaporised or perpetually trapped in combat on the drop.

For casual games? Crack on. They'll always be good against people who don't build optimized lists, or don't play (reasonably) optimally. They'll be a blast, as they always have been, when they can get Cacophony off or when they can shoot at targets that don't have invulns/minuses to hit, and they're a lot of fun when they roll well.

Just don't kid yourselves that you're making an optimized choice.

But isn't your argument basically "DE/GSC exist, so Oblits suck"? That seems like an extremely narrow-minded viewpoint.

For me the only real part that bugs me is it looks more and more like 2 will cost the same as 3 used to. That just doesn't sit right with me at all, even if they got buffs.

Wayniac wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:
I give up trying to explain how terrible these guys are going to be.

Nothing will convince some of you folks until you play with them yourselves and see your 360~pt unit vaporised or perpetually trapped in combat on the drop.

For casual games? Crack on. They'll always be good against people who don't build optimized lists, or don't play (reasonably) optimally. They'll be a blast, as they always have been, when they can get Cacophony off or when they can shoot at targets that don't have invulns/minuses to hit, and they're a lot of fun when they roll well.

Just don't kid yourselves that you're making an optimized choice.

But isn't your argument basically "DE/GSC exist, so Oblits suck"? That seems like an extremely narrow-minded viewpoint.

For me the only real part that bugs me is it looks more and more like 2 will cost the same as 3 used to. That just doesn't sit right with me at all, even if they got buffs.

That's because it's an over-all nerf, and a mandatory one to boot.

If they do get bumped up to 120 points a piece I am of the personal experience that they are a bit to expensive for a gun that isn't reliable. At their old cost it wasn't as huge of a deal. I could shoot them at a variety of targets and hope my other anti-armor weapons could pick up the slack. Now they are taking up double the points and I have to remove some of those other anti-tank options from my list to make room. If I don't roll good on their guns its going to suck pretty hard now. I know there are new spells and stuff that can buff them up to be better but now we are talking about investing more points into making something better that is at the mercy of dice the dice gods. I am also not a huge fan of the new new melee profile. Its points wasted on something that is not really going to save them from being locked into CC. I am more than willing to give them a try when they come out thought. Still hoping there is a new rule in Shadowspear that will allow 1ksons and DG to take them without having to ally in a CSM detatchment.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
What's frustrating is that it contradicts the lore and their ability to summon forth these weapons they previously absorbed.

Out of all the things they have done to ravage the lore in 8th edition and that is what frustrates you?

Its what is frustrating with the Obliterator rules.

But isn't your argument basically "DE/GSC exist, so Oblits suck"?

I mean, yeah. That's part of the reason nobody really uses them right now.

You are building a list and you need AV. You don't know what armies you might fight into.

Do you pick the unit that needs Stratagems to offset the fact they're a suicide drop, or do you pick 2 naked Deredeo's that don't rely on stratagems at all? Hell, even a Butcher Contemptor is only 20ish points more than one of these guys.

 Ap0k wrote:
Do you pick the unit that needs Stratagems to offset the fact they're a suicide drop, or do you pick 2 naked Deredeo's that don't rely on stratagems at all? Hell, even a Butcher Contemptor is only 20ish points more than one of these guys.

Also significantly more durable, more shots, better BS, for 138 points the Contemptor w/ Butchers is pretty amazing and definitely bursts the new Obliterator bubble. Especially given that it's not confused about what it's job is supposed to be.

That being said, many here will call this an invalid comparison because it's FW, which means it's some form of cheating or some such, I haven't bothered to get the logic clarified.

I don't think that's the correct cost for a Contemptor with Butcher Cannons is it?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't think that's the correct cost for a Contemptor with Butcher Cannons is it?

Contemptor with dual Butcher Cannons is 138pts, 144pts if you include the Havoc Launcher. Feel free to double check me, but I'm pretty sure.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:
Do you pick the unit that needs Stratagems to offset the fact they're a suicide drop, or do you pick 2 naked Deredeo's that don't rely on stratagems at all? Hell, even a Butcher Contemptor is only 20ish points more than one of these guys.

Also significantly more durable, more shots, better BS, for 138 points the Contemptor w/ Butchers is pretty amazing and definitely bursts the new Obliterator bubble. Especially given that it's not confused about what it's job is supposed to be.

That being said, many here will call this an invalid comparison because it's FW, which means it's some form of cheating or some such, I haven't bothered to get the logic clarified.

It's not a likewise comparison - the strength of obliterators is packing in a ton of buffs while they stay safely in the cloud. A contemptor can be shot off turn 1. Is that better than obliterators being shot off after they deliver their payload?

I'm not personally planning to use obliterators, because I don't like making that investment. I *would* rather have a contemptor, or, singular obliterators sitting on an objective in cover.

RUMORED POINTS COSTS (haven't seen proof of this yet take it as you will)

CSM - 13
Greater Possessed - 70
Master of Possession - 90
Oblits - 115
Venomcrawler - 130

Wayniac wrote:
Oblits - 115

Woo! Off by 5pts from the worst case scenario, CSM is winning, so much winning!

At 130 Venomcrawler is hot garbage. That's Maulerfiend territory. MAYBE if we get the Baleflamer variant it might make it worthwhile (but who knows what that will increase on points)

Oblit at 115 I think is too much, but not so far as to be useless. I'd have said 100 would be the max (so its 5 points more for 2 buffed than 3 unbuffed) but this is 35 points more. A TL Lascannon+Fist Helbrute is 130 points.

There is no way that the venomcrawler is worth 130 pts. A Defiler body is 120. Master of possession goes in line with the thousand sons sorcerer but has an extra ability so that's nice. CSM at 13 pts yay babe. Buy a chaos space marine with a bolter, or two tzaangors? Hmmmmm.

Wayniac wrote:
RUMORED POINTS COSTS (haven't seen proof of this yet take it as you will)

CSM - 13
Greater Possessed - 70
Master of Possession - 90
Oblits - 115
Venomcrawler - 130

Those basically all look about exactly how I'd expect them to, and unfortunately that's about 10-20% more than they should be, barring maybe the Greater Possessed.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
There is no way that the venomcrawler is worth 130 pts. A Defiler body is 120.

That really depends on how many attacks the VC has. It has a mini scourge as well as more shots, more speed, more healing, and the summon thing (which is not great, but points could be ascribed to it).

VC will probably have 4 attacks with a degrading profile, maybe 6 if we're lucky. I still don't see how it's remotely better than Defiler with Scourge that comes in at 132 points. Or the Maulerfiend. Sure it has 2 mediocre guns while the mauler doesn't, I'll give it that.

MOP is pretty solid at 90pt IMO.

He'll land in around the same cost as a regular Sorc once you add the Force Weapon.

Not really that surprising really. He's maybe even marginally better given his perils aura and 5++. Though he will likely lose out on the ability to grab a jump pack/termy armour.

97-100ish for him is no worse than existing sorcs, assuming you can make use of the powers.

Oblits at 115 doesn't come as a surprise at all.

Greater Possessed at 70 seems ok. Same price as an Exalted Champ, but can benefit from Locii. That seems mostly fair, though he has a niche purpose, so not quite as versatile as an EC.

Overall, another swing and a miss from GW.

Wayniac wrote:
VC will probably have 4 attacks with a degrading profile, maybe 6 if we're lucky. I still don't see how it's remotely better than Defiler with Scourge that comes in at 132 points. Or the Maulerfiend. Sure it has 2 mediocre guns while the mauler doesn't, I'll give it that.

If you back out the BC the base of a Defiler is 98 points with 4 big claw attacks.

VC guns are likely to be worth something like 13 to 15 each. Defiler is 3 S12 AP2 D3 for 12. The VC scourge is 2 S6 AP2 D2 so 4 points. That puts the VS base at 100.

Then you need to account for the extra heal, move, and summoning junk. 10 points maybe? Puts it at 90 base. If it has 6/5/4 attacks it's a good buy. If it has 4/3/2 then it might need a 10 point drop, but there is little chance you'll see this thing much lower.

With good speed, good healing, and easy access to S9 attacks it makes for a potentially interesting monster mash with maulerfiends.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If you back out the BC the base of a Defiler is 98 points with 4 big claw attacks.

VC guns are likely to be worth something like 13 to 15 each. Defiler is 3 S12 AP2 D3 for 12. The VC scourge is 2 S6 AP2 D2 so 4 points. That puts the VS base at 100.

Then you need to account for the extra heal, move, and summoning junk. 10 points maybe? Puts it at 90 base. If it has 6/5/4 attacks it's a good buy. If it has 4/3/2 then it might need a 10 point drop, but there is little chance you'll see this thing much lower.

With good speed, good healing, and easy access to S9 attacks it makes for a potentially interesting monster mash with maulerfiends.

Pretty sure it's trash you couldn't pay me to field. But I'm happy to be proven wrong.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


Pretty sure it's trash you couldn't pay me to field. But I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Not even for a klondike bar?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not even for a klondike bar?

Throw in the painted model and I'll front line it to insure it spends as little time on the table as possible.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not even for a klondike bar?

Throw in the painted model and I'll front line it to insure it spends as little time on the table as possible.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
That being said, many here will call this an invalid comparison because it's FW, which means it's some form of cheating or some such, I haven't bothered to get the logic clarified.

Yup, why people don't like broken, obscure pay to win toys with blatantly OP rules using stratagems that were never designed for them? Crazy, isn't it?

Maybe, just maybe FW wouldn't cause that reaction if they actually could write rules, instead of producing either useless or old wraithknight tier units (and guess which subsets shows up on tables, making people allergic) but as it is, smugly putting something that should cost good 50% more points if it was any balanced at all on table and proclaiming stuff straight from the list of exploits FW is too lazy to actually rein in won't produce any other response...

 Irbis wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
That being said, many here will call this an invalid comparison because it's FW, which means it's some form of cheating or some such, I haven't bothered to get the logic clarified.

Yup, why people don't like broken, obscure pay to win toys with blatantly OP rules using stratagems that were never designed for them? Crazy, isn't it?

Maybe, just maybe FW wouldn't cause that reaction if they actually could write rules, instead of producing either useless or old wraithknight tier units (and guess which subsets shows up on tables, making people allergic) but as it is, smugly putting something that should cost good 50% more points if it was any balanced at all on table and proclaiming stuff straight from the list of exploits FW is too lazy to actually rein in won't produce any other response...

When was the last time you saw something like that, also you can replace every instance off this with Gw and atm out off all fw products you don't see any in tournament tables soooooo.

Not to mention that fw units get balanced at the same time gw tries too, E.g. Ca.
But he keep beeing uninformed.

 Irbis wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
That being said, many here will call this an invalid comparison because it's FW, which means it's some form of cheating or some such, I haven't bothered to get the logic clarified.

Yup, why people don't like broken, obscure pay to win toys with blatantly OP rules using stratagems that were never designed for them? Crazy, isn't it?

Maybe, just maybe FW wouldn't cause that reaction if they actually could write rules, instead of producing either useless or old wraithknight tier units (and guess which subsets shows up on tables, making people allergic) but as it is, smugly putting something that should cost good 50% more points if it was any balanced at all on table and proclaiming stuff straight from the list of exploits FW is too lazy to actually rein in won't produce any other response...

Name me 10 FW units that see regular tournament play.

I'll wait.

 Irbis wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
That being said, many here will call this an invalid comparison because it's FW, which means it's some form of cheating or some such, I haven't bothered to get the logic clarified.

Yup, why people don't like broken, obscure pay to win toys with blatantly OP rules using stratagems that were never designed for them? Crazy, isn't it?

One must question where all these broken units are, given that they don't appear to be particularly present in tournament lists.

Maybe, just maybe FW wouldn't cause that reaction if they actually could write rules, instead of producing either useless or old wraithknight tier units (and guess which subsets shows up on tables, making people allergic) but as it is, smugly putting something that should cost good 50% more points if it was any balanced at all on table and proclaiming stuff straight from the list of exploits FW is too lazy to actually rein in won't produce any other response...

Again...what exactly are we referring to here? How are they doing any worse than the core studio?

More to the point, most FW stuff has its costings done by the core GW studio these days anyway, and almost the entire line was up-priced into competitivr oblivion with CA2017. In fact, just about any balance query to FW over one of their models will get a bounceback to hit up the main studio about it. I'm not sure they're much in the rules business these days with Alan gone.

I can't recall any edition where FW stuff dominated. We had Malefic Lords and Earthshaker platforms at the very beginning of this edition, and those got nerfed into total pointlessness within a few months. I can't recall FW being a major consistent balance issue in any of the last several editions, certainly not anything that routinely appeared at and dominated tournaments for any length of time.

Surely these big daemons must be broken, and Krieg is guard 2.0 that actually can hit in melee, Corsairs are everywhere and renegades singlehandedly break all the metas alone!

How dare you suggest he is wrong

can't recall any edition where FW stuff dominated. We had Malefic Lords and Earthshaker platforms at the very beginning of this edition, and those got nerfed into total pointlessness within a few months. I can't recall FW being a major consistent balance issue in any of the last several editions, certainly not anything that routinely appeared at and dominated tournaments for any length of time.

Let's be honest here, malefic spam was absolute bad for the game but to point at them and say they were the Sole issue, when the model now exists basically in guard is a lie.
The main reason why they were broken was the supreme command detachment which still leads to issues, the questionable soup rules at the time and the other half called brimstone horrors.

Those Renegades man.

I dunno how they do it with their lack of stratagems and warlord traits and orders and ability to ally in all the busted imperial stuff!

Humble miracle-workers I tells ya!

 Ap0k wrote:
Those Renegades man.

I dunno how they do it with their lack of stratagems and warlord traits and orders and ability to ally in all the busted imperial stuff!

Humble miracle-workers I tells ya!

He i recently won a match, (Out of 70) they are just great!
Like militia is so much better then conscripts it ain't even fair man