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Not Online!!! wrote:


Let's be honest here, malefic spam was absolute bad for the game but to point at them and say they were the Sole issue,

I didn't say they were the sole issue, only that they and earthshaker platforms were about the only FW things that appeared to have any major balance issues, and even then only for the briefest of periods before they got obliterated by CA2017

 Vaktathi wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Let's be honest here, malefic spam was absolute bad for the game but to point at them and say they were the Sole issue,

I didn't say they were the sole issue, only that they and earthshaker platforms were about the only FW things that appeared to have any major balance issues, and even then only for the briefest of periods before they got obliterated by CA2017

Rightly so but the better way would've been to now lower the price back down after rule of three and battlbrothers, etc for the malefic and the Plattform.

That said r&h cultists, the worse cultists got also the same nerf last ca so at this point i question gw's capability.

Wayniac wrote:
RUMORED POINTS COSTS (haven't seen proof of this yet take it as you will)

CSM - 13
Greater Possessed - 70
Master of Possession - 90
Oblits - 115
Venomcrawler - 130

CSM - Yeah, so unchanged.
Greater Possessed - If only they were HQ, he'd fill a tax, then! Still, he's better in melee than a Power Axe Chaos Lord for 9 points less. However said Chaos Lord provides some nice rerolls unlike the GP's meh aura.
Master of Possession - Wait? He has exactly the SAME price as a regular Sorcerer? Granted, Malefic spells are far less interesting than the Dark Hereticus discipline, but he's still got an invul and a passive anti-psyker ability over the standard psyker. Might be worth taking.
Obliterators - And they are hot steaming garbage. There are so many better options for the cost of fielding the unit.
Venomcrawler - At first glance, about as appealing as the model looks. At a second glance it might be playable if properly supported. It is almost as good in melee as a melee Helbrute and its shooting has potential. With a Master of Possession and a Greater Possessed babysitting them they might actually be useable. Just not with that model.

 inirlan wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
RUMORED POINTS COSTS (haven't seen proof of this yet take it as you will)

CSM - 13
Greater Possessed - 70
Master of Possession - 90
Oblits - 115
Venomcrawler - 130

CSM - Yeah, so unchanged.
Greater Possessed - If only they were HQ, he'd fill a tax, then! Still, he's better in melee than a Power Axe Chaos Lord for 9 points less. However said Chaos Lord provides some nice rerolls unlike the GP's meh aura.
Master of Possession - Wait? He has exactly the SAME price as a regular Sorcerer? Granted, Malefic spells are far less interesting than the Dark Hereticus discipline, but he's still got an invul and a passive anti-psyker ability over the standard psyker. Might be worth taking.
Obliterators - And they are hot steaming garbage. There are so many better options for the cost of fielding the unit.
Venomcrawler - At first glance, about as appealing as the model looks. At a second glance it might be playable if properly supported. It is almost as good in melee as a melee Helbrute and its shooting has potential. With a Master of Possession and a Greater Possessed babysitting them they might actually be useable. Just not with that model.

Why would you fill a hq tax with gp when exalted Champions and Warpsmiths exist.

Greater possessed appear to be elites not HQ based on the leaked sheets.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Why would you fill a hq tax with gp when exalted Champions and Warpsmiths exist.

Um... Exalted Champions are only 4 points cheaper than Chaos Lords, so I don't really see why I'd ever take one.

The Warpsmith I can see the rationale, as he is our cheapest HQ while still pretty good.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that the GP would be better if he were a HQ, as it's a more valuable for slot list building than elite, since it's more efficient when it comes to squeezing out extra CP.

 buddha wrote:
Greater possessed appear to be elites not HQ based on the leaked sheets.

Hence why I said "If only he were HQ". He isn't, but I'd prefer if he was.

You'll want an Exalted Champ if Mutilators get a formation/stratagem with all this new Vigilus stuff.

They're so damn close to being good right now.

 Ap0k wrote:
You'll want an Exalted Champ if Mutilators get a formation/stratagem with all this new Vigilus stuff.

They're so damn close to being good right now.

Well, first they would need to fix the M value on them....

 Ap0k wrote:
You'll want an Exalted Champ if Mutilators get a formation/stratagem with all this new Vigilus stuff.

They're so damn close to being good right now.

There's definitely going to be some kind of Daemonkin detachment. If it makes Mutilators good, I will be mildly amazed. I'm still trying to understand why Obliterators got changed but Mutilators didn't get a similar change, surely if Obliterators have crappy power weapons now Mutilators should have crappy plasma guns, I mean, if you're going to give a unit something it never wanted, be consistent with it.

Abaddon's detachment will more than likely focus on Terminators and Chosen, which I think is a tough slog to make competitive.

The detachments I'm holding out the most hope for are Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion. Night Lords will be some horribly fidgety monstrosity where if the moon is eclipsed while the 9th planet is in ascension, it's scary, for half a round.

Word Bearers could have potential if they give them a detachment that really synergizes with the Daemons codex, but that seems unlikely.

World Eaters and Emperor's Children also have some decent potential, would love to see some real love for Noise Marines.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:
You'll want an Exalted Champ if Mutilators get a formation/stratagem with all this new Vigilus stuff.

They're so damn close to being good right now.

Well, first they would need to fix the M value on them....

Renegades for Advance + Charge.

Dreadclaws can carry 1 Mutilator per transport slot due to FW's inept rules writing.

Just needs a big distraction-thirster to absorb your opponents AV for a turn.

15"+advance with the pod on T1, then 3" disembark + 4"move + advance + charge on T2.

On a unit that currently costs 105 points for 3.

500points gets you a (currently) fairly damage efficient deathstar, though you do have to build around giving your opponent more pressing targets than a flimsy drop pod.

With a solid strat/formation, they certainly have the potential.

 Ap0k wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:
You'll want an Exalted Champ if Mutilators get a formation/stratagem with all this new Vigilus stuff.

They're so damn close to being good right now.

Well, first they would need to fix the M value on them....

Renegades for Advance + Charge.

Dreadclaws can carry 1 Mutilator per transport slot due to FW's inept rules writing.

Just needs a big distraction-thirster to absorb your opponents AV for a turn.

15"+advance with the pod on T1, then 3" disembark + 4"move + advance + charge on T2.

On a unit that currently costs 105 points for 3.

500points gets you a (currently) fairly damage efficient deathstar, though you do have to build around giving your opponent more pressing targets than a flimsy drop pod.

With a solid strat/formation, they certainly have the potential.

Well that might work.
Might.

 inirlan wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
RUMORED POINTS COSTS (haven't seen proof of this yet take it as you will)

CSM - 13
Greater Possessed - 70
Master of Possession - 90
Oblits - 115
Venomcrawler - 130

CSM - Yeah, so unchanged.
Greater Possessed - If only they were HQ, he'd fill a tax, then! Still, he's better in melee than a Power Axe Chaos Lord for 9 points less. However said Chaos Lord provides some nice rerolls unlike the GP's meh aura.
Master of Possession - Wait? He has exactly the SAME price as a regular Sorcerer? Granted, Malefic spells are far less interesting than the Dark Hereticus discipline, but he's still got an invul and a passive anti-psyker ability over the standard psyker. Might be worth taking.
Obliterators - And they are hot steaming garbage. There are so many better options for the cost of fielding the unit.
Venomcrawler - At first glance, about as appealing as the model looks. At a second glance it might be playable if properly supported. It is almost as good in melee as a melee Helbrute and its shooting has potential. With a Master of Possession and a Greater Possessed babysitting them they might actually be useable. Just not with that model.

Malefic less interesting than Dark Hereticus? Sure, it's more flat numbers than stuff like Warptime or Death Hex but I for one am looking forward to buffing my Daemon Engines through the roof. Here's to hoping that Plagueburst Crawlers are also valid targets (so I can drink my opponents tears as he tries to remove W12 T8 3+/4++/5+++ that reroll 1s to hit and wound... x3)

Pandabeer wrote:
Malefic less interesting than Dark Hereticus? Sure, it's more flat numbers than stuff like Warptime or Death Hex but I for one am looking forward to buffing my Daemon Engines through the roof. Here's to hoping that Plagueburst Crawlers are also valid targets (so I can drink my opponents tears as he tries to remove W12 T8 3+/4++/5+++ that reroll 1s to hit and wound... x3)

I don't see myself using most of what Malefic has to offer, whereas Dark Hereticus has mostly interesting powers.

Cursed Earth is strong, and a power I'd probably auto-take when running a MoP, but it's not as absolutely game defining as Warptime or Prescience.

Infernal Power is okay. Less so if you've got a spare chaos lord. Plus, it affects only <Legion> Daemon units, and well... the new obliterators are too expensive and most Daemon Engines suffer from guard-level accuracy. Decimators are better, but the Soulburner loadout does not benefit from IP over a Chaos Lord.

Edit : Anyway, the Malefic Discipline is interesting, but pales somewhat before Prescience, Warptime, Death Hex or even Diabolical Strength

Not sure if this was addressed, but how are the new Oblits going to work with the old data sheet not being replaced? Unless there is to be a new Chaos codex, you can't really force someone to buy the demonkin dex just to use Oblits. I also don't think having 2 of the same unit type existing with different stats is good for the game. Perhaps GW will produce an article after release indicating that the.new replaces the old and provides the stats or just replacing Chaos codex in general. Otherwise, there is no way to legally stop someone using the old unit entry since it exists in a valid book.

 bullyboy wrote:
Not sure if this was addressed, but how are the new Oblits going to work with the old data sheet not being replaced? Unless there is to be a new Chaos codex, you can't really force someone to buy the demonkin dex just to use Oblits. I also don't think having 2 of the same unit type existing with different stats is good for the game. Perhaps GW will produce an article after release indicating that the.new replaces the old and provides the stats or just replacing Chaos codex in general. Otherwise, there is no way to legally stop someone using the old unit entry since it exists in a valid book.

This is, IMO, the biggest downside to a "living ruleset".
It has been well established that when a new datasheet comes out, it replaces the old one. Intercessors in CA2018 is a good example, although in their case, you are just missing out on Sgt options, so no big deal.

You don't have to "force" anyone to use the new Oblit datasheet, but if both players are agreeing to use the most updated rules (which is by far the default assumption), they really should be using the Daemonkin version. And in this era of online information, it is fairly common for players to use rules they don't physically own (which is a separate issue, mind you).
There are just far too many sources of rules to expect every player have every rule.

But who knows, maybe the datasheet will be updated in the digital CSM codex?

-

 bullyboy wrote:
Not sure if this was addressed, but how are the new Oblits going to work with the old data sheet not being replaced? Unless there is to be a new Chaos codex, you can't really force someone to buy the demonkin dex just to use Oblits. I also don't think having 2 of the same unit type existing with different stats is good for the game. Perhaps GW will produce an article after release indicating that the.new replaces the old and provides the stats or just replacing Chaos codex in general. Otherwise, there is no way to legally stop someone using the old unit entry since it exists in a valid book.

The only way the game can function whatsoever is if the latest datasheets and errata are used. Otherwise you're free to use pre-nerf 4ppm Conscripts, pre-nerf Celestine etc.

Because these are just Obliterators and not Adjective VerbNoun, they replace the CSM codex one wholesale. The "ethical" thing to do would be to put it in the CSM errata document, but that would cut into the shareholder profit.

Ah yes, the FAQ would be the best place. They do have to do something in official format as CA adjusted the cultist point cost. Otherwise the old entry would be a valid option. The mini dex is not available as a separate purchase either.
I do expect we'll see something to make the change.

Vaktathi wrote:

Maybe, just maybe FW wouldn't cause that reaction if they actually could write rules, instead of producing either useless or old wraithknight tier units (and guess which subsets shows up on tables, making people allergic) but as it is, smugly putting something that should cost good 50% more points if it was any balanced at all on table and proclaiming stuff straight from the list of exploits FW is too lazy to actually rein in won't produce any other response...

Again...what exactly are we referring to here? How are they doing any worse than the core studio?

More to the point, most FW stuff has its costings done by the core GW studio these days anyway, and almost the entire line was up-priced into competitivr oblivion with CA2017. In fact, just about any balance query to FW over one of their models will get a bounceback to hit up the main studio about it. I'm not sure they're much in the rules business these days with Alan gone.

I can't recall any edition where FW stuff dominated. We had Malefic Lords and Earthshaker platforms at the very beginning of this edition, and those got nerfed into total pointlessness within a few months. I can't recall FW being a major consistent balance issue in any of the last several editions, certainly not anything that routinely appeared at and dominated tournaments for any length of time.

Are you aware that after the FW Index books, the main GW studio took over writing the 40k rules for FW? FW's staff has really been stretched thin with all the specialist games.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Are you aware that after the FW Index books, the main GW studio took over writing the 40k rules for FW?

Did they? Where was that stated? And what 40k rules for FW stuff there has actually been after the indices? (There was some Custodian rules, I guess.)

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Not sure if this was addressed, but how are the new Oblits going to work with the old data sheet not being replaced? Unless there is to be a new Chaos codex, you can't really force someone to buy the demonkin dex just to use Oblits. I also don't think having 2 of the same unit type existing with different stats is good for the game. Perhaps GW will produce an article after release indicating that the.new replaces the old and provides the stats or just replacing Chaos codex in general. Otherwise, there is no way to legally stop someone using the old unit entry since it exists in a valid book.

The only way the game can function whatsoever is if the latest datasheets and errata are used. Otherwise you're free to use pre-nerf 4ppm Conscripts, pre-nerf Celestine etc.

Because these are just Obliterators and not Adjective VerbNoun, they replace the CSM codex one wholesale. The "ethical" thing to do would be to put it in the CSM errata document, but that would cut into the shareholder profit.

Rules as written, rules as FAQ'd, its very clear that we must use the new Obliterator rules.

The only tiniest of caveats, you can house rule anything you want and with your opponents permission play that way; you can even play with old rules but at that point its a house rule.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Not sure if this was addressed, but how are the new Oblits going to work with the old data sheet not being replaced? Unless there is to be a new Chaos codex, you can't really force someone to buy the demonkin dex just to use Oblits. I also don't think having 2 of the same unit type existing with different stats is good for the game. Perhaps GW will produce an article after release indicating that the.new replaces the old and provides the stats or just replacing Chaos codex in general. Otherwise, there is no way to legally stop someone using the old unit entry since it exists in a valid book.

The only way the game can function whatsoever is if the latest datasheets and errata are used. Otherwise you're free to use pre-nerf 4ppm Conscripts, pre-nerf Celestine etc.

Because these are just Obliterators and not Adjective VerbNoun, they replace the CSM codex one wholesale. The "ethical" thing to do would be to put it in the CSM errata document, but that would cut into the shareholder profit.

Rules as written, rules as FAQ'd, its very clear that we must use the new Obliterator rules.

The only tiniest of caveats, you can house rule anything you want and with your opponents permission play that way; you can even play with old rules but at that point its a house rule.

My point is that GW has a responsibility to publish the rule if the expectation is to change it and use the new one. Imagine if someone played Space Marines and the stats to the rhino changed in the BA codex. The player cannot be expected to purchase that codex because they play Ultramarines. GW would have to publish the change somewhere officially.
This is not a new chaos codex, its daemonkin and very different.
However, I do believe they will publish something within a few days after release.

I'm sure the rules will eventually become available else where. I agree with your sentiment, and I think for units like the Obliterators GW should release the rules as an errata. In this instance they're really the only unit that has this kind of updated rules in this set.

 Crimson wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

Are you aware that after the FW Index books, the main GW studio took over writing the 40k rules for FW?

Did they? Where was that stated? And what 40k rules for FW stuff there has actually been after the indices? (There was some Custodian rules, I guess.)

It was something that was stated more than once at some of FW's presentations that have happened since the beginning of the year.
In one instance I saw mentioned someone was asking if FW would be updating their 40k rules through errata or FAQ and were told the rules are being handled by the main studio so they couldn't say.
In another instance someone was asking in broad strokes if the FW Dark Mechanicum for Heresy would get a 40k rules release like the Custodians; they said was that was the plan, but they couldn't really say anything more about rules or timing because the rules were being handled by the main studio who had taken over when they restructured for all the specialist games projects.

At its peak FW was only about a dozen people. One critical member passed away and some people either moved to other places in GW or left; and whats been said are that only three designers were held on for heresy (where they had intended 4) and each of the specialist games got two designers attached to it.

 bullyboy wrote:
This is not a new chaos codex, its daemonkin and very different.
However, I do believe they will publish something within a few days after release.

They have stopped requiring retailers to auto re-stock the SM and CSM codices though, so let your conspiracy theories run wild.

 bullyboy wrote:

Spoiler:

 aka_mythos wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Not sure if this was addressed, but how are the new Oblits going to work with the old data sheet not being replaced? Unless there is to be a new Chaos codex, you can't really force someone to buy the demonkin dex just to use Oblits. I also don't think having 2 of the same unit type existing with different stats is good for the game. Perhaps GW will produce an article after release indicating that the.new replaces the old and provides the stats or just replacing Chaos codex in general. Otherwise, there is no way to legally stop someone using the old unit entry since it exists in a valid book.

The only way the game can function whatsoever is if the latest datasheets and errata are used. Otherwise you're free to use pre-nerf 4ppm Conscripts, pre-nerf Celestine etc.

Because these are just Obliterators and not Adjective VerbNoun, they replace the CSM codex one wholesale. The "ethical" thing to do would be to put it in the CSM errata document, but that would cut into the shareholder profit.

Rules as written, rules as FAQ'd, its very clear that we must use the new Obliterator rules.

The only tiniest of caveats, you can house rule anything you want and with your opponents permission play that way; you can even play with old rules but at that point its a house rule.

My point is that GW has a responsibility to publish the rule if the expectation is to change it and use the new one. Imagine if someone played Space Marines and the stats to the rhino changed in the BA codex. The player cannot be expected to purchase that codex because they play Ultramarines. GW would have to publish the change somewhere officially.
This is not a new chaos codex, its daemonkin and very different.
However, I do believe they will publish something within a few days after release.

In fairness, GW have been good recently at publishing updated datasheets which are common to multiple books - for example, the CSM FAQ includes the updated Horror datasheet from when CD came out.

I'd expect to see the new datasheet appear in the CSM FAQ somewhere between Shadowspear release day and the two-week FAQ.

 aka_mythos wrote:
It was something that was stated more than once at some of FW's presentations that have happened since the beginning of the year.
In one instance I saw mentioned someone was asking if FW would be updating their 40k rules through errata or FAQ and were told the rules are being handled by the main studio so they couldn't say.
In another instance someone was asking in broad strokes if the FW Dark Mechanicum for Heresy would get a 40k rules release like the Custodians; they said was that was the plan, but they couldn't really say anything more about rules or timing because the rules were being handled by the main studio who had taken over when they restructured for all the specialist games projects.

Well, that's good news.

115pts. Bye bye oblits

 Smirrors wrote:
115pts. Bye bye oblits

I think that's a bit of an over-reaction. Oblits were arguably too good for their cost before. This is a correction that also accommodates the new model.

Look at it this way, the old Oblits probably should have been about 75ppm. So for 3 of them that would have been 225pts. You can get 2 of the new Oblits for 230pt
For 5pts more, you get T5, which will have a significant impact on their survivability. And with 6 shots per model, 2 is the same as 3 of the old, so you get the same number of shots.
You also get the ability to take only 1, which has merit. And taking 3, while very much more expensive than before, has MUCH more buff potential

Overall, I truly think they are better than before, but you now pay for what you get. So competitively, it evens out. Oblits are still valid, but will be used differently
Players will either invest less points on just fielding units of 1 instead of the full 3 of the old, or lean into the skid and dump more points on taking even more

-

Oblits were arguably too good for their cost before

They sure were, that's why everybody was using them competitively.

https://imgur.com/gallery/qyrWALY (credit to raga7 on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/b103bp/updated_12151831419_most_popular_warhammer_40k/)

 Ap0k wrote:

Oblits were arguably too good for their cost before

They sure were, that's why everybody was using them competitively.

https://imgur.com/gallery/qyrWALY (credit to raga7 on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/b103bp/updated_12151831419_most_popular_warhammer_40k/)

I did add the qualifier "arguably"
However, not being top of the meta doesn't mean a unit isn't "good for its cost"

My point is that Oldblits were good, yes, but easy to abuse (even if that abuse did not give CSMs enough of an advantage). Nublits correct that abuse, or at least force more points investment for it, but also provide a valid way to take units of just 1 Oblit, which has it's merit.
Overall the change is good, but it means a bit a thought in using them.
It does NOT mean "bye, bye Oblits"

-

 Galef wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:

Oblits were arguably too good for their cost before

They sure were, that's why everybody was using them competitively.

https://imgur.com/gallery/qyrWALY (credit to raga7 on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/b103bp/updated_12151831419_most_popular_warhammer_40k/)

I did add the qualifier "arguably"
However, not being top of the meta doesn't mean a unit isn't "good for its cost"

My point is that Oldblits were good, yes, but easy to abuse (even if that abuse did not give CSMs enough of an advantage). Nublits correct that abuse, or at least force more points investment for it, but also provide a valid way to take units of just 1 Oblit, which has it's merit.
Overall the change is good, but it means a bit a thought in using them.
It does NOT mean "bye, bye Oblits"

-

Oblits were good, but "easy to abuse" is reaching. They had zero flexibility, here's your 195 pt monoblock of three dudes, that's all you get. Here's your random rolls you get to find out after dropping, oops you got Damage 1, good luck kid. Now you should only play them one single way and no other, period.

A 200 pt unit that's not even in the field Turn 1 and will die on opponent's Turn 2 is not really "easy to abuse". It's not like they start in a wave serpent, pop out, shoot with no penalties with flat 3 damage weapons from 48" away and then run behind a terrain in the same turn if you know what I mean.