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Not Online!!! wrote: First, stop delegtimising all arguments about soup and cp interaction as a Red Hering, seriously you Start to sound like a broken record and it is considered a Totschlag argument, one which can not be argued against because it supposedly drafts from a higher legitimiced position (E.g. Arguing with the Bible).
It is regarded as impolite and used only by people not beeing capable to argue propperly.
Actually, red herring is totally different. The equivalent to your Totschlagargument would be the appeal to authority logical fallacy, at least as you've defined it in your example of appealing to Biblical authority.
But sure, let's take it from the standpoint of 15+ years of directly managing game designers and in that entire period, you never make a huge system change before you see what the small change can accomplish, simple as that. What you are proposing is a massive change, again, shooting your dog for crapping on the carpet. This is basically tossing the edition out entirely without stopping at the 'maybe we should adjust this one thing' along the way.
Not Online!!! wrote: Also so long ion bullwark exists so long you can not argue that soup was intended for balance and that therefore we should balance according to soup. Because clearly gw doesn't.
So now we're shifting the goalposts (logical fallacy seems to be the theme)? RK vs IK pretty much sums up the balance issues there, no need to even look further. Hell, it was obvious to me the moment I looked at a Castellan compared to a Lord of Skulls. No soup required. IK have been underpriced since the moment the Codex dropped. That's an entire other rabbit hole to dive into.
Not Online!!! wrote: Secondly: we don't have this yet black on white that all legions will suffer from the Mere Mortals rule. So stop this instant putting it up as a strawman.
We do have it in black and white, imagining that this will somehow apply only to Black Legion is willfully disregarding the obvious. We can comfortably infer that this will apply to the rest of the Legions.
Not Online!!! wrote: Thirdly: yes there can be a valid argument made between 5 ppm guardsmen and 5 ppm cultists, mainly based around traits, auras and imunity of morale aswell as weapons. So yes the comparison holds closer then you think.
Morale immunity is locked to 1 special character for 240 (or more?) points that I then have to dedicate to babysitting Cultists (I'm sure this is what they intended for Abaddon the Babysitter) and 1 Legion Warlord trait. I would love to have a sub-50 point character I could dedicate to Cultist babysitting, that would be amazing.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
And yet you would be better off to have Renegade Guardsmen and Cultists in the book to open up some more options. Much like how GSC had their "catch-all name" of "Neophyte Hybrids" broken up into "Hybrids" and "Brood Brothers" to represent the difference.
Still disagree, instead i would go about to split off seperate units from them: AL gets Saboteurs / agents which would be scout equivalent.
IW would get quasi traitor guard. (equipment wise atleast)
The rest should get cultists.
That is how it should be..
I must have missed that part where the Blood Pact were part of a Iron Warriors warband, or the Chosen of Nemeroth were IW derived (since they did use traitor guard that were quite effective at killing Titus dead as a door knob repeatedly...). If anything, based on what I know of the Iron Warriors, the current representation of cultist actually makes more sense as the IW view their mortal forces as disposable (also each other, but their mortal forces more so) and use them as meat shields and minefield cleaners.
Cultist basicly have the same problem as the chaos codex as a whole: meant to represent a very broad selection of different people, which is then stripped down to their least interesting elements of each for the rules. highly trained mortal chaos soldiers do exist outside of the context of Alpha Legion (again, the Blood Pact) and they deserve to be represented as much as the angry rabble up-riser .
Not Online!!! wrote: First, stop delegtimising all arguments about soup and cp interaction as a Red Hering, seriously you Start to sound like a broken record and it is considered a Totschlag argument, one which can not be argued against because it supposedly drafts from a higher legitimiced position (E.g. Arguing with the Bible).
It is regarded as impolite and used only by people not beeing capable to argue propperly.
Actually, red herring is totally different. The equivalent to your Totschlagargument would be the appeal to authority logical fallacy, at least as you've defined it in your example of appealing to Biblical authority.
But sure, let's take it from the standpoint of 15+ years of directly managing game designers and in that entire period, you never make a huge system change before you see what the small change can accomplish, simple as that. What you are proposing is a massive change, again, shooting your dog for crapping on the carpet. This is basically tossing the edition out entirely without stopping at the 'maybe we should adjust this one thing' along the way.
Not Online!!! wrote: Also so long ion bullwark exists so long you can not argue that soup was intended for balance and that therefore we should balance according to soup. Because clearly gw doesn't.
So now we're shifting the goalposts (logical fallacy seems to be the theme)? RK vs IK pretty much sums up the balance issues there, no need to even look further. Hell, it was obvious to me the moment I looked at a Castellan compared to a Lord of Skulls. No soup required. IK have been underpriced since the moment the Codex dropped. That's an entire other rabbit hole to dive into.
Not Online!!! wrote: Secondly: we don't have this yet black on white that all legions will suffer from the Mere Mortals rule. So stop this instant putting it up as a strawman.
We do have it in black and white, imagining that this will somehow apply only to Black Legion is willfully disregarding the obvious. We can comfortably infer that this will apply to the rest of the Legions.
Not Online!!! wrote: Thirdly: yes there can be a valid argument made between 5 ppm guardsmen and 5 ppm cultists, mainly based around traits, auras and imunity of morale aswell as weapons. So yes the comparison holds closer then you think.
Morale immunity is locked to 1 special character for 240 (or more?) points that I then have to dedicate to babysitting Cultists (I'm sure this is what they intended for Abaddon the Babysitter) and 1 Legion Warlord trait. I would love to have a sub-50 point character I could dedicate to Cultist babysitting, that would be amazing.
Again you are (willfully?) missinterpreting.
My argument is that you always claim Red herring, as soon someone points to soup, which is a delegtimising tactic / Totschlag argument. Therefore stop it.
Secondly: so be it i demand a radical change but to this time stay at a our dog exemple, he now has cancer ( stratagems) and a viral Infection ( cp soup interaction) .
Thirdly, you blatantly claimed before allies were considered in balance, i confronted you with a trait that in combination with a stratagem is only balanced by ammount of available cp.
How come then, if your statement is true that it is not balanced in soup? Also moving goalposts, this is not, this is a specific argument scenario that points to a obvious flaw in your logic.
Fourth: try to be informed, the cheapest total morale imunity can come on a 55ppm model. So wrong again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 22:48:08
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
And yet you would be better off to have Renegade Guardsmen and Cultists in the book to open up some more options. Much like how GSC had their "catch-all name" of "Neophyte Hybrids" broken up into "Hybrids" and "Brood Brothers" to represent the difference.
Still disagree, instead i would go about to split off seperate units from them: AL gets Saboteurs / agents which would be scout equivalent.
IW would get quasi traitor guard. (equipment wise atleast)
The rest should get cultists.
That is how it should be..
I must have missed that part where the Blood Pact were part of a Iron Warriors warband, or the Chosen of Nemeroth were IW derived (since they did use traitor guard that were quite effective at killing Titus dead as a door knob repeatedly...). If anything, based on what I know of the Iron Warriors, the current representation of cultist actually makes more sense as the IW view their mortal forces as disposable (also each other, but their mortal forces more so) and use them as meat shields and minefield cleaners.
Cultist basicly have the same problem as the chaos codex as a whole: meant to represent a very broad selection of different people, which is then stripped down to their least interesting elements of each for the rules. highly trained mortal chaos soldiers do exist outside of the context of Alpha Legion (again, the Blood Pact) and they deserve to be represented as much as the angry rabble up-riser .
I mainly stated in equipment and mostly due to their manufacturing standards and the one book about honosue and the two marines that blow up the daemoncuba, that said Yeah I belive IW would probably still Fall under worse then IG squad after giving it another thought.
Is that really your argument? I just want to be sure.
Yes, because he is objectively wrong in his statement about morale immunity which he claimed is only on a 240 pts + model.
I never stated that it would be a good idea, mostly because if you want to have a babysitter atleast pick one with a decent aura (read Chaos Lord) which incidentaly is 74 (?) don't have the book on me. So still vastly cheaper.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/18 22:49:15
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: [spoiler]Yes, because he is objectively wrong in his statement about morale immunity which he claimed is only on a 240 pts + model.
I never stated that it would be a good idea, mostly because if you want to have a babysitter atleast pick one with a decent aura (read Chaos Lord) which incidentaly is 74 (?) don't have the book on me. So still vastly cheaper.
Actually I did point out the Iron Warriors Warlord trait, but I get it, reading requires effort.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Not Online!!! wrote: [spoiler]Yes, because he is objectively wrong in his statement about morale immunity which he claimed is only on a 240 pts + model.
I never stated that it would be a good idea, mostly because if you want to have a babysitter atleast pick one with a decent aura (read Chaos Lord) which incidentaly is 74 (?) don't have the book on me. So still vastly cheaper.
Actually I did point out the Iron Warriors Warlord trait, but I get it, reading requires effort.
Ahh my bad, i was decived by your terrible Argumentation before that is based solely to delegitimising all critics off soup.
May i beg your Pardon.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: Actually I did point out the Iron Warriors Warlord trait, but I get it, reading requires effort.
Ahh my bad, i was decived by your terrible Argumentation before that is based solely to delegitimising all critics off soup.
May i beg your Pardon.
Yes, well I do prefer to try to fix things with wrenches instead of explosives, there's generally more control on one as opposed to the other.
Also, you should really avoid using an appeal to authority example to refer to a red herring, confusing your logical fallacies is terribly obtuse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 23:13:23
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Not Online!!! wrote: Actually I did point out the Iron Warriors Warlord trait, but I get it, reading requires effort.
Ahh my bad, i was decived by your terrible Argumentation before that is based solely to delegitimising all critics off soup.
May i beg your Pardon.
Yes, well I do prefer to try to fix things with wrenches instead of explosives, there's generally more control on one as opposed to the other.
Also, you should really avoid using an appeal to authority example to refer to a red herring, confusing your logical fallacies is terribly obtuse.
Totschlag arguments do not just appeal to authority, they can.
The correct Termini it seems is :thought-terminating cliché.
Basically an argument that tries to stop all arguments.
In your case invalid delegtimisation.
Also if you find this obtuse never read Hegel.
Also fixing a problem with explosives can yield better results than a wrench, if your problem is a Rock on a mountain pass street. Also blowing up things, atleast here, is more controlled then the wrenches.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts. 
