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It's for these specific reasons why 40k needs to move to stricter base sizing requirements and get rid of TLOS.
Then, GW needs to release THE OFFICIAL LINE LASER POINTER OF WARHAMMER (aka exact replica of the army painter one but more expensive) and strictly approach range and LOS in a more abstract but determinable methods.

You literally draw a line with a line pointer - if there are unobstructed base-to-base, it is not obscured. If it passes through another model from another unit/terrain, it is obscured and provides -1 to hit unless [ENTER EXCEPTIONS HERE]. The exceptions might be something in the lines of:
1. infantry can obscure infantries but not monsters & vehicles
2. vehicles/monsters can obscure every unit type
3. flyers & swarms cannot be obscured by any unit type.

Regarding using elevation to draw LOS, really dish out the rules pertaining to how to deal with Z-axis in the game. Before that, elevations should not amount to any effect. If you hit a non-porous terrain (what we currently refer to as LOS blocking terrain) while drawing the LOS, then you have no LOS.

 skchsan wrote:
Then, GW needs to release THE OFFICIAL LINE LASER POINTER OF WARHAMMER

Which needs to be in the eye of the Servo-skull tape measure

-

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
The stands are utter gak, that's why you use brass rod instead of half of the odd solutions presented ITT, if a unit is meant to be "floating" it looks daft with its feet on the ground.

Have you seen these models?

Um, yes

Look at how they're posed, plus the shock absorbers on their feet. They're simply not meant to have their feet on the ground in the poses they're in. same goes for the Inceptors. Just use brass rod where you would put the flight stand and all of the breakage problems disappear.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Look at how they're posed, plus the shock absorbers on their feet. They're simply not meant to have their feet on the ground in the poses they're in.

Sure. Of course one needs to repose the legs. But as they're power armour models, that's not so hard.

same goes for the Inceptors. Just use brass rod where you would put the flight stand and all of the breakage problems disappear.

Yep, I did that for the Inceptors as they actually look good airborne. Except for one guy which I modelled as landed for variety, the same way I'm planning to model these Suppressors.

 Galef wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Then, GW needs to release THE OFFICIAL LINE LASER POINTER OF WARHAMMER

Which needs to be in the eye of the Servo-skull tape measure

-

YAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSS

I utterly hate inceptors, but if I could model them standing and without the skids, I think they'd look great.

On that topic, how hard is it to model inceptors on the ground? Is there a lot of cutting and filing involved to get rid of that wide stance? And are the skids part of the legs or can they be easily left out?

Anyone want to share any pics?

It certainly is advantageous. You can hide the unit where you may not have been able to hide it before. It might be taller than a rhino but without stand it can hide behind rhino, and pop out to shoot when it wants.

Imo, Heavy Bolter devastators with an extended barrel and an Assault Squad jump pack would look better.

 Smirrors wrote:
It certainly is advantageous. You can hide the unit where you may not have been able to hide it before. It might be taller than a rhino but without stand it can hide behind rhino, and pop out to shoot when it wants.

Again, the advantage goes both ways.

 skchsan wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
It certainly is advantageous. You can hide the unit where you may not have been able to hide it before. It might be taller than a rhino but without stand it can hide behind rhino, and pop out to shoot when it wants.

Again, the advantage goes both ways.

It does rather stand out that anyone who's said it IS modeling for advantage so far hasn't been able to provide any actual examples of it.

 Bookwrack wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
It certainly is advantageous. You can hide the unit where you may not have been able to hide it before. It might be taller than a rhino but without stand it can hide behind rhino, and pop out to shoot when it wants.

Again, the advantage goes both ways.

It does rather stand out that anyone who's said it IS modeling for advantage so far hasn't been able to provide any actual examples of it.

Wait. Isn't Smirrors post a clear description of how it would be an advantage to have them modeled on the ground? I am very confused on what you are trying to say here.

Being able to hide models from shooting is good. Putting the model on the base instead of the flight stand makes it easier to hide. The mobility of the unit and the all or nothing nature of concealment makes it unlikely that a model on a flight stand would be able to shoot at a unit that a model on the ground cannot shoot at. Modeling the unit on the ground would be modeling for advantage.

That said, I think that flying stands are annoying ( f**** gargoyles) and GW not releasing the unit with a official way to model them on the ground is stupid. As a player I wouldn't have any problem if my opponent had them on the ground. If I were a TO or event organizer I would be very hesitant to approve their use, and would be inclined to require to player to have a set of the models on the flying stands to substitute if requested by an opponent.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
I utterly hate inceptors, but if I could model them standing and without the skids, I think they'd look great.

On that topic, how hard is it to model inceptors on the ground? Is there a lot of cutting and filing involved to get rid of that wide stance? And are the skids part of the legs or can they be easily left out?

Anyone want to share any pics?

No one

Absolutely modelling for advantage. Cutting a model's LoS profile in half and not replacing the difference with cork or rock, means the model will most definitely perform differently. You now have more options to hide it when need be, and for a jump into getting into LoS when you want to is never an issue.

There's no reason you can't fix the size difference with a base, easily, quickly, and cheaply. I'm all for conversion and cooler posing, as long as the dimensions are ROUGHLY the same, definitely doesn't have to be exact, but cutting the height of a model in half is crossing into new territory.

People saying the change equally impacts your own models, do not have a very strong grasp on this game from a competitive standpoint.

 SHUPPET wrote:
There's no reason you can't fix the size difference with a base, easily, quickly, and cheaply.

Modelling ability?

SHUPPET wrote:People saying the change equally impacts your own models, do not have a very strong grasp on this game from a competitive standpoint.

The OP didn't specify that they were asking their question from a competitive standpoint, but even if they were, wouldn't it be entirely the point to take them off the stands? After all, is there a rule saying you can't?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
There's no reason you can't fix the size difference with a base, easily, quickly, and cheaply.

Modelling ability?

SHUPPET wrote:People saying the change equally impacts your own models, do not have a very strong grasp on this game from a competitive standpoint.

The OP didn't specify that they were asking their question from a competitive standpoint, but even if they were, wouldn't it be entirely the point to take them off the stands? After all, is there a rule saying you can't?

I think most people are capable of gluing on a rock or lamppost that's about of equal height on the base.

I really don't understand the gripe of "modeling for advantage". 40k's balance isn't good enough for it to make much of a difference. Not to mention that LOS is based on terrain more than models and terrain changes from game to game anyway. Having a shorter model is the same as having taller terrain in most ways. There's just too many variables for a change in silhouette to matter much. IDK it just seems to be much ado about nothing. So long as the models don't change mid-game I don't see the problem.

just my 2 cents, i guess

Dandelion wrote:
I really don't understand the gripe of "modeling for advantage". 40k's balance isn't good enough for it to make much of a difference. Not to mention that LOS is based on terrain more than models and terrain changes from game to game anyway. Having a shorter model is the same as having taller terrain in most ways. There's just too many variables for a change in silhouette to matter much. IDK it just seems to be much ado about nothing. So long as the models don't change mid-game I don't see the problem.

just my 2 cents, i guess

You are altering one of the fundamentals of the game. Maybe not a huge amount, but its bound to have an effect.
If its a casual game - or you are happy to abstract line of sight its fine.
But I feel this "40k isn't balanced enough for modelling for advantage" line has never run into someone's scratch built models that are a fraction of the size of regular models they claim to be. Again not a huge issue in a casual setting, but its not unknown for people to try it on in more competitive ones.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
There's no reason you can't fix the size difference with a base, easily, quickly, and cheaply.

Modelling ability?

I think most people are capable of gluing on a rock or lamppost that's about of equal height on the base.

Maybe I don't want my suppressors to each weigh the same as a rock. Maybe I don't know where to buy a lamp post or how to make one that looks decent. Maybe I just prefer how the models look when they're standing. Whatever the reason, is there anything my opponent can do about it? Is there a rule from Games-Workshop or one of the major tournament organizers saying the model has to be the same height as depicted on the box

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
I would think it's not modeling for game advantage so much as for practicality. Those flying stands are effing terrible. We're supposed to glue the model to the stand at an external point, not a gap the end slots into. Plus, if they are glued to the stand, transporting them without breaking them off becomes a challenge. Assembling them with their feet on the bases avoids all those problems.

Plus, those guys probably don't fire their weapons while they're in the air anyway. Those are projectile weapons, and firing them while airborne would do hilarious things to their flight trajectory..

It actually wouldn't change trajectory at all in any perceivable capacity, those marines weigh several hundred kg with all that gear, they're actually way more plausible than people on forums make them out to be. We're already having military test exosuits, it won't take 40k to make something as Suppressors possible

That's how I modeled my Inceptors, will do the same to Suppressors

 Dovis wrote:

That's how I modeled my Inceptors, will do the same to Suppressors

About those: was it possible to pose them without that splayed leg stance or do the legs sort of force you to model them that way? Also, are the impact skids part of the leg or could you model the legs without them?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

That's how I modeled my Inceptors, will do the same to Suppressors

About those: was it possible to pose them without that splayed leg stance or do the legs sort of force you to model them that way? Also, are the impact skids part of the leg or could you model the legs without them?

They would be extremely difficult to change, you'd have to use a fair bit of green stuff.

Honestly, I don't think putting them on the ground really works as is. Just looks off.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

That's how I modeled my Inceptors, will do the same to Suppressors

About those: was it possible to pose them without that splayed leg stance or do the legs sort of force you to model them that way? Also, are the impact skids part of the leg or could you model the legs without them?

You're kind of forced there with the pose unless you want to cut/green stuff it by yourself, the skids are part of the leg at least on monopose models

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

ccs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Add a rock on each base that's of equal height to the model's LOS on the flying stand, and use that.

Problem solved.

Problem magnified if you're playing with people where flight stand/lack of flight stand would be an issue. Because how exactly do you trace LoS through a rock to a unit beyond them?

Treat the rock as the head? And then your opponent can shoot the rock to kill it?

Think issue he was refering more of that you would be blocking LOS to units BEHIND. Like rhino doesn't actually block LOS to behind from front because there's gap below it from which you can draw LOS. If you were to make rhino without that gap behind that would be modeling for advantage as there would suddenly be no gap below.

Sick level of LOS accuracy if that rock is of issue. Bigger issue is aesthetic. How on earth every marine with jump pack always finds rock to stand on but not others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
It certainly is advantageous. You can hide the unit where you may not have been able to hide it before. It might be taller than a rhino but without stand it can hide behind rhino, and pop out to shoot when it wants.

Again, the advantage goes both ways.

Not evenly though. Being on ground helps more than it hurts so overall it's positive bonus.

I'm very positive about GW and Primaris but those fying stands are unacceptable. They were unacceptable on Inceptors, on Deepkin Eels and now the Suppressors.

They look ugly and are functionally abysmal. Using an alternative is basically required and that isn't modelling for advantage but for sanity.

 Bookwrack wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
It certainly is advantageous. You can hide the unit where you may not have been able to hide it before. It might be taller than a rhino but without stand it can hide behind rhino, and pop out to shoot when it wants.

Again, the advantage goes both ways.

It does rather stand out that anyone who's said it IS modeling for advantage so far hasn't been able to provide any actual examples of it.

Ummm yes they have? Easier to hide your models. And before you said you can't see as easily no it does not work out evenly. With smaller profile you can more easily ensure you have LOS to target you want while cutting LOS from enemies. Just for example if you model it on ground so it fits behind sideway rhino(sideways is wider anyway) you can use the rhino to block LOS from certain angles while giving you angle toward your target ensuring you see target but certain enemy units don't see you. How you can claim that is NOT advantage?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

SHUPPET wrote:People saying the change equally impacts your own models, do not have a very strong grasp on this game from a competitive standpoint.

The OP didn't specify that they were asking their question from a competitive standpoint, but even if they were, wouldn't it be entirely the point to take them off the stands? After all, is there a rule saying you can't?

Rules are permissive. They tell you what you can do, not what you can't. The only thing GW have to say on the matter is models must be based on the base they came with, whether the flight stand is considered part of the base is up for debate.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
There's no reason you can't fix the size difference with a base, easily, quickly, and cheaply.

Modelling ability?

I think most people are capable of gluing on a rock or lamppost that's about of equal height on the base.

Maybe I don't want my suppressors to each weigh the same as a rock. Maybe I don't know where to buy a lamp post or how to make one that looks decent. Maybe I just prefer how the models look when they're standing. Whatever the reason, is there anything my opponent can do about it? Is there a rule from Games-Workshop or one of the major tournament organizers saying the model has to be the same height as depicted on the box

the rule is called modelling for advantage, I don't own the 8th brb so I'm unsure if it's in the current edition but either way it's enforced almost universally at all events and most other places within the community too.

What if I don't like the Carnifex body? And Maybe I don't know how to sculpt or convert a better one? There's nothing else that physically states I can't cut the head off my Stonecrusher Carnifexes, glue them to the bases, model some dirt around them, and claim that they are depicted still burrowing while I move them up the board completely out of Line of Sight, but sometimes it just takes common sense - don't be TFG. if you want dislike a model's base, you can convert a similarly sized one, if not, you can bite the bullet and play the model you bought at the height profile that was intended for it.

Yup, as I already said- I don't like the GW flight stands as they;re far too flimsy. So you replace them with brass rod. Simples.

Dandelion wrote:
I really don't understand the gripe of "modeling for advantage". 40k's balance isn't good enough for it to make much of a difference. Not to mention that LOS is based on terrain more than models and terrain changes from game to game anyway. Having a shorter model is the same as having taller terrain in most ways. There's just too many variables for a change in silhouette to matter much. IDK it just seems to be much ado about nothing. So long as the models don't change mid-game I don't see the problem.

just my 2 cents, i guess

You can't control terrain. Sometimes you will play on a board with large amounts of terrain that will hide the model, sometimes you won't. Making the model shorter is equivalent to being able to make terrain taller for yourself but not your opponent.