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For 70points Greater Possessed sound like an auto-take to me. Even without other Daemon units it's still a nice cheap beatstick. Oblits for 115 points, so more than a helbrute... I'll have to try them out, it seems a bit expensive.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I made some nice charts for this:



The ordinate is computed with a formula that isn't particularly complex, but is too annoying to type out without using LaTeX or something. It's basically a series of weighted averages [notably, inside the toughness factor, the formula to considers toughness slightly more important than wounds [since more toughness draws higher quality and lower fire rate firepower, in turn improving defense value] and considers resistance to Bolters and Battle Cannons most important, followed by Lasguns, Autocannons, and Lascannons, followed by Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, and arbitrarily large guns].

These charts consider the effects of Endless Cacophony, but not of Prescience, Delightful Agonies or any new supporting powers.

It's not particularly mathematically rigorous, but it gets the point across. I can play with the weighting, and for more arrangements it shows that New Obliterators are more efficient at 1 or 3, at almost all weightings of cost. If you increase the importance of cost, the high end drops to being bad, but 3 Oblitz becomes a very magical number.

As a side note, playing with the weights is a pretty good demonstration of "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics". If the only weapon that matters is the Hammer of Sundrance it looks like an insane buff, but it looks pretty nerf for all combinations other than 3 oblitz if you decide that shooting power is irrelevant. However, it still gets the point across, and, for almost all weight combinations, 3 Oblitz is a net efficiency buff. [The only way to make it look otherwise is to de-weight everything but wound count]

Relative efficiency compared to what exactly?

Points spent on previous Oblits vs Newblits?

Amount of old models vs amount of new models?

At 115, Newblits are slightly over 75% more expensive then current version.

Did they get 75% more shots? No. They got 50%.

Did their survivability increase by 75%? That seems unlikely, though it's slightly harder to quantity given the variables in what shoots at them. In same cases, they probably got pretty close to 75% or more survivable, whilst in others they got nowhere close.

Unit balance in 40k occurs on 2 axes at minimum (damage efficiency and survivability efficiency, possibly with a utility efficicency factor as well, though that's a lot harder to calculate).

So if you have a model with 10 shots and 5 wounds, and you increase that models shots by 100%, then increase its cost by 100%, you still still haven't justified the new point cost, because it's no more survivable than previously, but now costs twice as much. In that situation, you have achieved a net nerf, despite the doubled damage making it appear to be an even upgrade.

The same applies to survivability pricing. If you make a unit twice as durable but don't double it's damage output, whilst doubling it's cost, you have again nerfed the unit.

Newblits should be somewhere between (eyeballing) 80-95 points, depending on your perspective of how much they needed a buff (and they needed a buff; just because they were one of the better units in the codex doesn't make them 'good').

You cannot factor psychic powers/stratagems/aura's into things, because, with some exceptions, those powers benefit all units equally, where the percentage increase is concerned. VotLW would be an exception that scales some units better than others, due to the S/T charts having peaks.

So, while yes, you can say 'but Cacophony' or 'but Prescience', and those buffs will certainly inflate their numbers, they would inflate the numbers on virtually any other unit by the same percentage increase. Cacophony flat doubles your damage regardless of which unit you use it on, so using it on 'less efficient' units vs 'more efficient' units only increases the degree by which those units are more or less efficient. There's absolutely a case that doubling your damage from 10 wounds to 20 wounds is better than 5 wounds to 10 wounds, for sure, but Cacophonys entire problem is that it ignores the existence of Vect/GSCVect, which means that it's not a reliable strategy if you might run into those armies at any point (such as, say, at a tournament). So if you're relying on Cacophony to force multiply the damage on your inefficient Newblits (that you've paid 345pts for) to get those big numbers, those points are then more dead vs Aeldari/GSC+allies than, for example, Imperium, resulting in them being a less viable unit (i.e one of the exact same problems current oblits have).

Also, yes, while you certainly can factor the new melee weapon into things, it's in no way relevant to the reason you're adding them to a list, which, presumably, is to fill things with bullets from 24" away.

If Oblits are 115, that is just fine by me. It's basically a harder hitting, weaker helbrute at this point, with built in deepstrike and the demon keyword. Although, even 'weaker' is relative, considering it has 2+ save and 5+ invuln to counteract the 4 wounds per model issue. It will cry itself to sleep against any sort of mortal wounds, that's for sure.

I pretty much agree with the OP.

The Eliminators are pretty dang good. Take 3 units of 3 and you've got some pretty tough to kill snipers that will probably be able to gib something valuable ever turn.

There is basically no reason to take this librarian though - he is absolutely terrible. With every current tree available being much better. Say what you want about Librarus (it is bad) but nullzone is a game winning power when you need it and might of heros is a solid buff spell for some good units like (leviathans/Gman/Calgar) plus when combined with Tiggy-1 to hit ability it is basically the only good combo in the marine arsenal. Obscuration has ether a unit restriction or is the exact same as another power in another codex with some sort of crux that makes it worse to much worse. Pretty hard to see why anyone would call this tree decent.

The infiltrators have a really awesome rule. 12" no deep strike zone is REALLY amazing. Plus their bolters have a nice bonus feature of autowounding on 6's to hit - in combination with their ease in getting free double taps. Plus an apoth in the squad? Ehh…if they are 18-19 points each 3 squads of 5 are pretty auto include. If they are 21 points as suggested by some. Perhaps a single 5 man to protect against deep strike turn 1 cheese will be good enough to see play. I wont touch them at their price though. Heck a few more points gets me another eliminator.

The autocannon guys are Okay but it will really depend on cost with these guys. Relic Leviathan with storm cannon outperforms these guys by a significant margin. Same wounds/double toughness/ 4++ save/ more shots/ buffable costs less? WOW. Pretty hard sell for the eliminators. It's too bad they don't have special lascannons. It's also really sad they don't ignore movement penalties. Their ignore overwatch ability is nice. HOWEVER - most units with scary overwatch are a single model - yet...again...conditional issues that other armies don't have to deal with because they are not space marines. Autarch charges....you just cant overwatch….

The infiltrator captain is remarkably bad....though has a really weird ability to hold objectives by himself....point cost can not justify such nonsense though.

LT? Who cares....

All in all - this box is a massive disappointment for anyone looking for improvements to space marines. It's also disappointing we didn't get the new primaries vehicle as well. Basically I know what GW is doing with marines. Space marines are a starter army that gets you hooked on the game. Their job is to attract cusmtomers and then when they realize their armies sucks they buy another one or trade it for another army....etherway….they are probably spending 10k plus over the next 15 years.

Infilitrators are pretty bad because of how expensive they are. if they were a few points lower they would be my mainstay along with my intercessors. They would be a great supplement to my primaris forces / (kitbashing a few regular marines to be infilitrators).

A helix adept being as expensive as a terminator is a bit much.

Chaos side seems very powerful in comparision

The 100pts for the Libby could be right if not including war gear. If they have to buy their camo cloak and force weapon, that puts it, what, 7points more, which is a reasonable ballpark for adding an infiltrate deploy. Otherwise I guess they decided to reduce costs on Librarians and missed CA.

That Infiltrator cost is def weird. I first read that as 18 for the Infiltrator and 22 for the Eliminator, which frankly makes more sense.

I think Infiltrators would be so good if it weren't for the fact that they are only 3 man units and eliminators seem not bad, the low strength is an issue and the mortal wound isn't happening a lot with a 3 man unit, they are more for infantry, they are amazing anti-character killers but, the executioner round looks nice but with 3 models using a 1 shot weapon at st4 good luck trying to get the goodies of the AP and D and the hyperfrag round is just a long ranged bolter and the Mortis shot is especially awful basically a bolt gun with -1 AP, and who cares about the anti-cover. suppressors are good tactically wise but they aren't exactly big hitters, though I have to see the full rules before I make any sort of judgement. Nothing is really that good though so far. GW's insistence on 3 man units is what seems to be the future, but SM's will be gak until every other army follows that trend (which I don't see happening with the other new armies).

I mean, the Mortis is basically an AP-1 Sniper Mortar. While it gets about half the hits of an actual mortar, the ability to snipe characters within 36" with pretty much no way of stopping it is pretty dang nice.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think Infiltrators would be so good if it weren't for the fact that they are only 3 man units and eliminators seem not bad, the low strength is an issue and the mortal wound isn't happening a lot with a 3 man unit, they are more for infantry, they are amazing anti-character killers but, the executioner round looks nice but with 1shot at st4 good luck trying to get the goodies of the AP and D and the hyperfrag round is just a long ranged bolter and the Mortis shot is especially awful basically a bolt gun with -1 AP, and who cares about the anti-cover. suppressors are good tactically wise but they aren't exactly big hitters, though I have to see the full rules before I make any sort of judgement. Nothing is really that good though so far. GW's insistence on 3 man units is what seems to be the future, but SM's will be gak until every other army follows that trend (which I don't see happening with the other new armies).

Small correction - Infiltrators can be taken in units of up to 10

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think Infiltrators would be so good if it weren't for the fact that they are only 3 man units and eliminators seem not bad, the low strength is an issue and the mortal wound isn't happening a lot with a 3 man unit, they are more for infantry, they are amazing anti-character killers but, the executioner round looks nice but with 1shot at st4 good luck trying to get the goodies of the AP and D and the hyperfrag round is just a long ranged bolter and the Mortis shot is especially awful basically a bolt gun with -1 AP, and who cares about the anti-cover. suppressors are good tactically wise but they aren't exactly big hitters, though I have to see the full rules before I make any sort of judgement. Nothing is really that good though so far. GW's insistence on 3 man units is what seems to be the future, but SM's will be gak until every other army follows that trend (which I don't see happening with the other new armies).

Small correction - Infiltrators can be taken in units of up to 10

That makes really good although a bit expensive. They could cause serious mischief up field. They are now my favourite from the rest, well if they were cheaper.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I mean, the Mortis is basically an AP-1 Sniper Mortar. While it gets about half the hits of an actual mortar, the ability to snipe characters within 36" with pretty much no way of stopping it is pretty dang nice.

Indeed, and sniping out Altaioc Characters that can't hide on a 2+ is amazing.

A couple units of Eliminators will be great counters against weaker support characters that Aeldari and IG like to use.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I mean, the Mortis is basically an AP-1 Sniper Mortar. While it gets about half the hits of an actual mortar, the ability to snipe characters within 36" with pretty much no way of stopping it is pretty dang nice.

Indeed, and sniping out Altaioc Characters that can't hide on a 2+ is amazing.

A couple units of Eliminators will be great counters against weaker support characters that Aeldari and IG like to use.

Or GSC. Who got royally screwed by this release.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think Infiltrators would be so good if it weren't for the fact that they are only 3 man units and eliminators seem not bad, the low strength is an issue and the mortal wound isn't happening a lot with a 3 man unit, they are more for infantry, they are amazing anti-character killers but, the executioner round looks nice but with 1shot at st4 good luck trying to get the goodies of the AP and D and the hyperfrag round is just a long ranged bolter and the Mortis shot is especially awful basically a bolt gun with -1 AP, and who cares about the anti-cover. suppressors are good tactically wise but they aren't exactly big hitters, though I have to see the full rules before I make any sort of judgement. Nothing is really that good though so far. GW's insistence on 3 man units is what seems to be the future, but SM's will be gak until every other army follows that trend (which I don't see happening with the other new armies).

Small correction - Infiltrators can be taken in units of up to 10

That makes really good although a bit expensive. They could cause serious mischief up field. They are now my favourite from the rest, well if they were cheaper.

Yep a bit expensive but excellent board control units.

And I bet we'll see the price go down, the inital wave of primaris where over priced too. with Intercessors being 20 points per man,

Did the warglaives go down in price in the FAQ for the box?

So I've been looking more at the Venomcrawler as it seems to be the real dark horse here. The biggest downer is its points put it comparable to the Defiler and Maulerfiend (I'm almost certain that GW didn't check what adjustments they were doing to similar units in Chapter Approved with this; it seems on par with the Myphitic Blighthauler which went down significantly in Chapter Approved 2018), but let's compare to the Maulerfiend which is IMHO it's closest rival:

* It has 2 fewer wounds (10 compared to 12)
* It has two Assault D3 guns with decent stats for light anti-tank work (the variable damage sucks, however. I'd have preferred a flat 2, but what can you do) which when compared to the Defiler is better as it makes it a mobile gun platform.
* Same Toughness/WS/BS/Movement, 3+ save, 5+ Invulnerable
* Slightly better regen (1 automatically, 1 if it killed anything)

We don't know it's attack characteristic but let's assume 4 attacks at full health as that seems to be the standard.

That means it gets 4 attacks with its claws (at full health S8 AP -3 and 3 damage) plus 2 attacks from the Tendrils (S6 AP -2 and 2 Damage) or 6 attacks with the Tendrils. This makes it able to deal with heavily armored targets (claws) or elites (tendrils). If you have a Greater Possessed nearby it gets +1 strength to everything so S9 gun and claws and S7 lashers (likely not too relevant however as it won't make a huge difference except maybe for the claws if you're attacking something with high Toughness). Let's also remember the Master of Possession has two very good spells: Cursed Earth (+1 invulnerable) and Infernal Power (re-roll hit and wound) in an aura around him. The re-rolls can help to offset the 4+ BS while Cursed Earth gives it a very respectable 3+/4++ with regen.

That's not too bad at all when you think about it. It has to be used in tandem with something else IMHO; something to screen it and provide support as it supports them. A 36" assault gun with decent anti-elite stats isn't anything to scoff at. Its melee is decent enough if you aren't trying to make it kill things by itself.

I don't know. It sounds like it could have some merit after all.

BrianDavion wrote:
And I bet we'll see the price go down, the inital wave of primaris where over priced too. with Intercessors being 20 points per man,

I hope so, but then again, one would imagine that once they had realised that they initially overestimated the worth of the Primaris units, they wouldn't do it again.

The heck with reroll 1s to hit and wound - I want to snack-rifice some warpsmiths. If they have a new model I'm all in for a daemon engine list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - SAD FACE.

BrianDavion wrote:
And I bet we'll see the price go down, the inital wave of primaris where over priced too. with Intercessors being 20 points per man,

That isn't how things are supposed to work. The scouts are a lot like an intercessor - their gun is almost as good with really only 6" bonus going to the intercessor. However the Vanguard get infiltration and that sweet no deep strike zone.They should really be 2 points more than an intercessor for these stats. Realistically though an intercessor should be less than 17 points.

Do chaos dreadnoughts got the price loyalist ones got too? And if yes, then what is the point of a 100 plus points obliterator ?

Karol wrote:
Do chaos dreadnoughts got the price loyalist ones got too? And if yes, then what is the point of a 100 plus points obliterator ?

- Deepstrike
- Force multipliers
- 3 in a unit
- 1+ in cover

Karol wrote:
Do chaos dreadnoughts got the price loyalist ones got too? And if yes, then what is the point of a 100 plus points obliterator ?

They do, and there is no purpose in a 100 pt obliterator, much less a 115 pt one.

The Chaos releases, rules and pricing so far balance somewhere between a bad joke and a direct middle finger from GW. The models are cool, sure, but that was GW's trick a couple of editions back. I ain't falling for that again.

Karol wrote:
Do chaos dreadnoughts got the price loyalist ones got too? And if yes, then what is the point of a 100 plus points obliterator ?

A Helbrute with twin lascannon and Helbrute fist is 130 points. Which is part of why 115 Obliterators are a tough sell. The Helbrute is way more durable and more reliable with its shots, but the Oblits can deep strike and have a smaller profile as well as having more buffs from the Master of Possession and possibly other Sorcerers as well.

I don't think they are totally in competition, but they are close. I see points for using Obliterators or Helbrutes, or even both, but such a hefty price point for a single Obliterator without the same increase in effectiveness (they got better, sure, but not THAT much better) makes it less appealing.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The heck with reroll 1s to hit and wound - I want to snack-rifice some warpsmiths. If they have a new model I'm all in for a daemon engine list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - SAD FACE.

So, there's that. Oh well, now I can get Kairos instead of buying the new box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wayniac wrote:

Karol wrote:
Do chaos dreadnoughts got the price loyalist ones got too? And if yes, then what is the point of a 100 plus points obliterator ?

A Helbrute with twin lascannon and Helbrute fist is 130 points. Which is part of why 115 Obliterators are a tough sell. The Helbrute is way more durable and more reliable with its shots, but the Oblits can deep strike and have a smaller profile as well as having more buffs from the Master of Possession and possibly other Sorcerers as well.

I don't think they are totally in competition, but they are close. I see points for using Obliterators or Helbrutes, or even both.

A Hellbrute with a plasma cannon and a missile launcher is 96 pts. A Hellbrute with a twin heavy bolter and a missile launcher is 97 pts. There is zero explanation or justification on the obliterator cost.

I'm pretty sure the justification is "We didn't look at Chapter Approved before deciding points"

To be fair though I don't think Helbrutes and Obliterators fill exactly the same role, however, there is a lot of overlap. Slaaneshi Obliterators can benefit from more buffs, fire twice without restrictions (Helbrute has Fire Frenzy but has to have not moved and needs to fire at the closest target, which may not always be the target you want to shoot at), have a 5+ Invuln (could be 4+ with MoP and Cursed Earth), re-roll hits and wounds (with Infernal Power) but IMHO can't be used for one specific role. They need to be considered an anti-elite generalist unit. If you want dedicated anti-tank for example I think you'd be better off with the Helbrute. If you want more Flexibility, then I think the Obliterators start to shine even with their increased cost.

Also, people like to point out when comparing Helbrute and Obliterator that the Obliterator can deep strike. This should be clarified to 'should deep strike' which means you're not getting their firepower turn 1 if you win initiative. Granted, the Helbrute is probably dead on turn 1 also, but given its smaller unit size, it's actually a bit easier to hide than a 3 man squad of Obliterators and has significantly better movement to get out of hiding and into a firing position.

I'm not advocating passionately one way or the other (I think Oblits are too expensive, but I don't field Helbrutes), just saying that the deep strike option on the Obliterators is not automatically better than having to put a Helbrute on the table for less points.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Also, people like to point out when comparing Helbrute and Obliterator that the Obliterator can deep strike. This should be clarified to 'should deep strike' which means you're not getting their firepower turn 1 if you win initiative. Granted, the Helbrute is probably dead on turn 1 also, but given its smaller unit size, it's actually a bit easier to hide than a 3 man squad of Obliterators and has significantly better movement to get out of hiding and into a firing position.

I'm not advocating passionately one way or the other (I think Oblits are too expensive, but I don't field Helbrutes), just saying that the deep strike option on the Obliterators is not automatically better than having to put a Helbrute on the table for less points.

I think it will boil down to whether you want flexibility since you roll for Fleshmetal before you decide what to shoot at, or dedicated to one role. There's a lot of overlap but I think there will be situations where one is better than the other or even take both.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Also, people like to point out when comparing Helbrute and Obliterator that the Obliterator can deep strike. This should be clarified to 'should deep strike' which means you're not getting their firepower turn 1 if you win initiative. Granted, the Helbrute is probably dead on turn 1 also, but given its smaller unit size, it's actually a bit easier to hide than a 3 man squad of Obliterators and has significantly better movement to get out of hiding and into a firing position.

I'm not advocating passionately one way or the other (I think Oblits are too expensive, but I don't field Helbrutes), just saying that the deep strike option on the Obliterators is not automatically better than having to put a Helbrute on the table for less points.

Not just deepstrike, but force multipliers.

I otherwise muse about deepstriking singular NuBlits into cover near objectives that a helbrute might have trouble getting to. I likely won't have the points for that though.

I honestly love everything about the Vanguard. Those are the marines I have been wanting to play. (Raven Guard player here). I think they are good without being broken. The 12" denial area means you have to deep strike shooting at -1 at me, and the librarian can do interesting stuff to protect my heavy hitters in certain situations. If you play either Raptors or RG this box is good. As someone else said, the autocannon guys seem just TQ killers (or primaris killers), but the army as a whole is pretty hard to shift by GSC although it struggles against knights (then again who doesn't). It gets pretty good tools against eldars as well. Sadly no new vehicles or melee options. I think SM needed a primaris melee oriented unit more than they needed flying autocannons.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
And I bet we'll see the price go down, the inital wave of primaris where over priced too. with Intercessors being 20 points per man,

I hope so, but then again, one would imagine that once they had realised that they initially overestimated the worth of the Primaris units, they wouldn't do it again.

could be but GW seems to be acting very conservitive with primaris units pricing