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It'd be nice to have a poll because I don't have much to add, as I completely agree with OP (although I haven't seen the psychic powers). Nothing in the space marine list seems any good. As many others have said the captain and lieutenant are very meh. I don't get the eliminator hype. It's three dudes with strength 4 weapons. The ignores LOS is really useless, the frag version is only useful if there's no good targets in sight and you have to shoot basic infantry with your three snipers, and the main sniping profile is severely limited by its strength 4. The infiltratiors are also pretty meh, the 12" bubble with infiltrate is nice, but their gun is really no better than a bolter, I can't see taking any more than one squad of five. Also, really can't see the hype behind the autocannon dudes. If they're a mobile unit, don't give them a heavy weapon. If they're a fire support unit, give them a better gun than an autocannon with 1 more ap (which really isn't anything to write home about) and don't make them mobile. All in all kinda disappointing.

I think the basic issue is whilst in a vacuum these are cool units, what place do they have in the wider space marine list, and what units can they vie with for spots in a list with? I'd say they don't have much of a place in the marine army as it stands, as they don't seem to synergise with the rest of the codex, and they don't look as though they can really deal enough damage to push the few decent SM units out of their spots.

Well a big part of the snipers is that they are fairly cheap and say 6 or so for 120 points with a vindicare could reliably take out 1 to 2 characters (t3-4) a turn which may not make back their immediate points back, but can really screw over the opponents plans that rely on characters. In addition that really make your opponent have to respect them and be more conservative with his characters due to the threat of the snipers. It's really match dependent if they will be all that hot or not, but I can see them being pretty decent.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well a big part of the snipers is that they are fairly cheap and say 6 or so for 120 points with a vindicare could reliably take out 1 to 2 characters (t3-4) a turn which may not make back their immediate points back, but can really screw over the opponents plans that rely on characters. In addition that really make your opponent have to respect them and be more conservative with his characters due to the threat of the snipers. It's really match dependent if they will be all that hot or not, but I can see them being pretty decent.

Eh, why go for pretty decent when you could spend the points on something good? Also I don't intend to spend 190 quid just for six guys.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
It'd be nice to have a poll because I don't have much to add, as I completely agree with OP (although I haven't seen the psychic powers). Nothing in the space marine list seems any good. As many others have said the captain and lieutenant are very meh. I don't get the eliminator hype. It's three dudes with strength 4 weapons. The ignores LOS is really useless, the frag version is only useful if there's no good targets in sight and you have to shoot basic infantry with your three snipers, and the main sniping profile is severely limited by its strength 4. The infiltratiors are also pretty meh, the 12" bubble with infiltrate is nice, but their gun is really no better than a bolter, I can't see taking any more than one squad of five. Also, really can't see the hype behind the autocannon dudes. If they're a mobile unit, don't give them a heavy weapon. If they're a fire support unit, give them a better gun than an autocannon with 1 more ap (which really isn't anything to write home about) and don't make them mobile. All in all kinda disappointing.

I think the basic issue is whilst in a vacuum these are cool units, what place do they have in the wider space marine list, and what units can they vie with for spots in a list with? I'd say they don't have much of a place in the marine army as it stands, as they don't seem to synergise with the rest of the codex, and they don't look as though they can really deal enough damage to push the few decent SM units out of their spots.

A bolter that causes an autowound on a 6 to hit is no better than a bolter?

People should probably wait for stratagems if they're on the fence - or start thinking in terms of all the other current stratagems and traits that benefit these units.

Wayniac wrote:
Apparently the rumored (haven't seen proof of this yet so take it as you will) points:

CHAOS
CSM - 13
Greater Possessed - 70
Master of Possession - 90
Oliterators - 115
Venomcrawler - 130

I am fairly sure these points are missing something. If you look at the Warhammer Community list posted up today with a potential 2k point army and add up all the units we have points for it comes out to roughly 1140-1200 depending on gear picks. This list of points plugged in to the new units only adds up to about 600, so there is roughly a 200+ point gap there. We all know it is a meh 2k point list, but I would be surprised if they were that far off in the points department (though I could be wrong there).

So yeah, girdle your mutated loins for a random sprinkling of 200ish points divided up between these leaked numbers on the new darlings we have coming our way.

Kias wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Apparently the rumored (haven't seen proof of this yet so take it as you will) points:

CHAOS
CSM - 13
Greater Possessed - 70
Master of Possession - 90
Oliterators - 115
Venomcrawler - 130

I am fairly sure these points are missing something. If you look at the Warhammer Community list posted up today with a potential 2k point army and add up all the units we have points for it comes out to roughly 1140-1200 depending on gear picks. This list of points plugged in to the new units only adds up to about 600, so there is roughly a 200+ point gap there. We all know it is a meh 2k point list, but I would be surprised if they were that far off in the points department (though I could be wrong there).

So yeah, girdle your mutated loins for a random sprinkling of 200ish points divided up between these leaked numbers on the new darlings we have coming our way.

I think the writers were not concerned with making a list at exactly 2000 points.

This army, approximately 2000 points in size when kitted out

 Daedalus81 wrote:
A bolter that causes an autowound on a 6 to hit is no better than a bolter?

People should probably wait for stratagems if they're on the fence - or start thinking in terms of all the other current stratagems and traits that benefit these units.

Sorry, probably should have spelled out what I was thinking more. I mean vs an intercessor's 30" and ap1, getting 1 auto wound with no ap every six shots really isn't that attractive, to me at least.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well a big part of the snipers is that they are fairly cheap and say 6 or so for 120 points with a vindicare could reliably take out 1 to 2 characters (t3-4) a turn which may not make back their immediate points back, but can really screw over the opponents plans that rely on characters. In addition that really make your opponent have to respect them and be more conservative with his characters due to the threat of the snipers. It's really match dependent if they will be all that hot or not, but I can see them being pretty decent.

Eh, why go for pretty decent when you could spend the points on something good? Also I don't intend to spend 180 quid just for six guys.

Well I mean being able to be serious threat to characters and have that threat level on the field might be pretty solid once we get to play with it and see how it works out. 6 eliminators with a double tapping vindicare would be around the 220 mark and be a pretty serious threat to any t3-t4 character and to even beefier character through sustained fire.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well I mean being able to be serious threat to characters and have that threat level on the field might be pretty solid once we get to play with it and see how it works out. 6 eliminators with a double tapping vindicare would be around the 220 mark and be a pretty serious threat to any t3-t4 character and to even beefier character through sustained fire.

Do t3-t4 characters really dominate though whilst being taken in small enough numbers to be seriously threatened? Can they not just be hidden behind LOS blocking terrain or in a transport or in reserve? If eliminators are such a threat, won't they be splatted immediately, given they're just 6 wounds and are not characters, leaving just the one vindicator shot? The problems that affect snipers in this game still apply to the eliminators.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well I mean being able to be serious threat to characters and have that threat level on the field might be pretty solid once we get to play with it and see how it works out. 6 eliminators with a double tapping vindicare would be around the 220 mark and be a pretty serious threat to any t3-t4 character and to even beefier character through sustained fire.

Do t3-t4 characters really dominate though whilst being taken in small enough numbers to be seriously threatened? Can they not just be hidden behind LOS blocking terrain or in a transport or in reserve? If eliminators are such a threat, won't they be splatted immediately, given they're just 6 wounds and are not characters, leaving just the one vindicator shot? The problems that affect snipers in this game still apply to the eliminators.

Well eldar and guard are both well off armies and have a lot of squishy targets. Orks and cult are also have a lot of good support characters who are squishy. LoS wont help avoid all the shots from the eliminators and there is not always going to be LoS blocking available and if there is it may limit your aura effects. If we ever get to take bigger squads of eliminators (probably likely) they can get the power off on them from the sneaky libby that makes them be impossible to shoot unless the closest so that can help keep them alive. If you don't get that then at least they have a 1+ save in cover so even against the dread primaris killer pro dissy cannon they have a 4+ save and if they are getting shot something else isn't.

I'm not saying they are going to change the meta or even heavily feature in tournament winning lists, but I think they might just make a solid addition to some armies and not feel like a tax when you put them on the table.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well I mean being able to be serious threat to characters and have that threat level on the field might be pretty solid once we get to play with it and see how it works out. 6 eliminators with a double tapping vindicare would be around the 220 mark and be a pretty serious threat to any t3-t4 character and to even beefier character through sustained fire.

Do t3-t4 characters really dominate though whilst being taken in small enough numbers to be seriously threatened? Can they not just be hidden behind LOS blocking terrain or in a transport or in reserve? If eliminators are such a threat, won't they be splatted immediately, given they're just 6 wounds and are not characters, leaving just the one vindicator shot? The problems that affect snipers in this game still apply to the eliminators.

Well eldar and guard are both well off armies and have a lot of squishy targets. Orks and cult are also have a lot of good support characters who are squishy. LoS wont help avoid all the shots from the eliminators and there is not always going to be LoS blocking available and if there is it may limit your aura effects. If we ever get to take bigger squads of eliminators (probably likely) they can get the power off on them from the sneaky libby that makes them be impossible to shoot unless the closest so that can help keep them alive. If you don't get that then at least they have a 1+ save in cover so even against the dread primaris killer pro dissy cannon they have a 4+ save and if they are getting shot something else isn't.

I'm not saying they are going to change the meta or even heavily feature in tournament winning lists, but I think they might just make a solid addition to some armies and not feel like a tax when you put them on the table.

Yeah but their squishy units are cheap and are supported by a lot of other cheap units. SM's can't afford to be squishy. If a squishy guard unit dies, there are still about 50 more left lol

Killing a commander is like also killing 10 IS, because two units of IS are now half as effective. But with the proliferation of snipers people are going to start rolling bodyguards and transports more, so, you have to determine if snipers are also good for your list or gamble that snipers won't make the meta.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Killing a commander is like also killing 10 IS, because two units of IS are now half as effective. But with the proliferation of snipers people are going to start rolling bodyguards and transports more, so, you have to determine if snipers are also good for your list or gamble that snipers won't make the meta.

That's exactly why I don't really like them. Amazing for clipping characters, but that low strength and single shot in a 3 man unit isn't going to do much against vehicles etc. Plus if the opponent is relying on their characters then its too easy for them to just target and kill the executioners.

The loyalist half of the box is terribly pointed, and the librarian only affecting PHOBOS stuff is really, really stupid. Those powers would immediately help marines become solid. But no, primaris only, and a subset of primaris that only so far has crappy overcosted gak.

 Marmatag wrote:
The loyalist half of the box is terribly pointed, and the librarian only affecting PHOBOS stuff is really, really stupid. Those powers would immediately help marines become solid. But no, primaris only, and a subset of primaris that only so far has crappy overcosted gak.

I didn't know that, that's ridiculous both game-wise and lore-wise.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Killing a commander is like also killing 10 IS, because two units of IS are now half as effective. But with the proliferation of snipers people are going to start rolling bodyguards and transports more, so, you have to determine if snipers are also good for your list or gamble that snipers won't make the meta.

Did anyone actually do the math on these guys killing a Company Commander?

With the d3 damage or d3 shots rounds (effectively the same, since he's got a 5+/5++) it takes seven guys to one-round him, assuming no buffs. (6.75 to be exact.)

With the "I don't give a crap about LoS, so screw your characters!" rounds, it takes twice that.

 JNAProductions wrote:
With the d3 damage or d3 shots rounds (effectively the same, since he's got a 5+/5++) it takes seven guys to one-round him, assuming no buffs. (6.75 to be exact.)

With the "I don't give a crap about LoS, so screw your characters!" rounds, it takes twice that.

So they're not really dangerous it sounds like to characters. About what I expected.

I think their big trick will be their use alongside a vindicare which can do the majority of the leg work and double tap onto a different character. Also add on that when are marines ever without some form of buff?

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think their big trick will be their use alongside a vindicare which can do the majority of the leg work and double tap onto a different character. Also add on that when are marines ever without some form of buff?

With maximum overbuff, it drops to less than four needed to kill a Company Commander. But that's with Bobby G.

A little more conservative, with just a Chapter Master and Lieutenant, it takes about four and one third to do a Company Commander in.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think their big trick will be their use alongside a vindicare which can do the majority of the leg work and double tap onto a different character. Also add on that when are marines ever without some form of buff?

I really doubt they intended to package them 'use with vindicare' they compliment a vindicare but you shouldn't need other units to make units better, especially ones that are not from the same codex.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think their big trick will be their use alongside a vindicare which can do the majority of the leg work and double tap onto a different character. Also add on that when are marines ever without some form of buff?

I really doubt they intended to package them 'use with vindicare' they compliment a vindicare but you shouldn't need other units to make units better, especially ones that are not from the same codex.

I doubt in GWs ability to package anything from a rule focused perspective. The fact is that they have a potential synergy with the Vindicare and yeah it would be nice if they didn't need him (and they might not) to be pretty alright. This is the edition of soup and if you are wanting to take things from a more competitive standpoint you have the factor that in.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think their big trick will be their use alongside a vindicare which can do the majority of the leg work and double tap onto a different character. Also add on that when are marines ever without some form of buff?

I really doubt they intended to package them 'use with vindicare' they compliment a vindicare but you shouldn't need other units to make units better, especially ones that are not from the same codex.

I doubt in GWs ability to package anything from a rule focused perspective. The fact is that they have a potential synergy with the Vindicare and yeah it would be nice if they didn't need him (and they might not) to be pretty alright. This is the edition of soup and if you are wanting to take things from a more competitive standpoint you have the factor that in.

No, that's just how to make a bad situation better, it has no bearing on whether its a good unit or not.

 JNAProductions wrote:
With the d3 damage or d3 shots rounds (effectively the same, since he's got a 5+/5++) it takes seven guys to one-round him, assuming no buffs. (6.75 to be exact.)

With the "I don't give a crap about LoS, so screw your characters!" rounds, it takes twice that.

I don't think you can evaluate SM units without looking at chapter tactics and aura buffs.

I am painting mine up with the rest of my primaris as Crimson Fists. If I want to sink a bunch of CP into offing a guard officer it gets pretty useful
Slay the Tyrant - 1CP
Bolter Drill -1CP
Use that nice new warlord trait for +1 to hit.

Now they are hitting on 2+, re-rolling 1's (because the warlord is within 3" for the trait) and generating extra shots on 4+
Should be getting 4-5 hits from 3 dudes.
That averages 3 wounds before saves, a little more if you have re-rolls on to-wound
So on average dice the dude dies. Just about.

I will not always want to burn 2CP just to kill a cheap character but if my opponent went all-in on the CP regeneration then I bag myself a warlord kill for that and stop them using a strategy they had built for- in that case it is totally worth a couple of CP. Similarly if only one Warlock has Quicken guess who has a big target painted on them?

If the unit size goes up to 6 when the full kit and rules are out then it works a lot better - buffing up a 6-man squad is always going to get more work done than a 3-man squad. In the meantime it is OK-ish, I can threaten a key squishy character if I want to and if not then I have spent ~60 points on a unit that camps a backfield objective while plinking away at stuff - the frag shells are tolerably efficient against any sort of chaff because of the +1 to hit from Crimson Fists CT.

With those initial 3 man squads I think Salamanders have the most efficient CT. Just that CT on its own makes them seriously threatening to squishy characters like Guard Commanders or Eldar Warlocks.

On balance it is an affordable unit that has enough utility to justify putting it on the table. Enough armies are upset by having squishy characters killed that they earn their place.

BTW for the chaos side, at least the points leaks were confirmed in a Youtube video reviewing the mini-dex.

115 point Obliterators...

Wayniac wrote:
BTW for the chaos side, at least the points leaks were confirmed in a Youtube video reviewing the mini-dex.

115 point Obliterators...

Almost a relief really. 115 is rough but I can see ways it can still get play. I was worried it was going to be more. I am going to be rethinking how I use them for sure. Doubt I will do the three oblit drop anymore, just too unreliable for the point cost.

Wayniac wrote:
BTW for the chaos side, at least the points leaks were confirmed in a Youtube video reviewing the mini-dex.

115 point Obliterators...

The Loyalist numbers were as well. It sucks that the Infiltrators are so expensive.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
BTW for the chaos side, at least the points leaks were confirmed in a Youtube video reviewing the mini-dex.

115 point Obliterators...

The Loyalist numbers were as well. It sucks that the Infiltrators are so expensive.

How much were you really expecting them to be? 12" bubble of "NOPE!" plus the ability to forward deploy and natural rolls of 6s result in a Wound?

22 points might be a bit high--but that's only because Intercessors and Tacticals are high to start with. Expecting Infiltrators to be cheap was a fool's errand.

All seriousness: this is GSC Neophytes v Guard Infantry Squads all over again. People kept trying to say Neophytes at 5ppm were "too expensive" when it was a GEQ model with +1LD, ability to DS, and the Bodyguard rule for nearby characters all rolled into one.

I was expecting them to be 19 points. Two points more than Intercessors. 20 would have been fine too, 22 is crazy though.

Their bolter rule is nothing amazing, the -1AP the Intercessors have is better most of the time.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
BTW for the chaos side, at least the points leaks were confirmed in a Youtube video reviewing the mini-dex.

115 point Obliterators...

The Loyalist numbers were as well. It sucks that the Infiltrators are so expensive.

How much were you really expecting them to be? 12" bubble of "NOPE!" plus the ability to forward deploy and natural rolls of 6s result in a Wound?

22 points might be a bit high--but that's only because Intercessors and Tacticals are high to start with. Expecting Infiltrators to be cheap was a fool's errand.

All seriousness: this is GSC Neophytes v Guard Infantry Squads all over again. People kept trying to say Neophytes at 5ppm were "too expensive" when it was a GEQ model with +1LD, ability to DS, and the Bodyguard rule for nearby characters all rolled into one.

I was expecting 20 pts each(which puts them as being still more expensive than Reivers and Intercessors.) And the Helix Adept to not be 32 pts. He is maybe 25 pts tops, especially since you need to bring the full 10 Marines to use him. That would put a full squad at 205 pts, which is decent. 25 pts down from the existing numbers.

The other models are a bargain, IMO. Eliminators are 72 pts which is pretty good for having the second best sniper rifle in the game.