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2019/03/13 23:36:56
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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ValentineGames wrote:Good lord there is allot of nonsense being thrown around here and some really weak and dodgy defence of the Russ.
The simple fact is that the design in world is pure garbage.
You can throw around all the defence you want but that is pure fact.
And it's not as if the imperium hasn't got or know of better designs. They practically confirmed they know of tanks like Tigers and Shermans etc in the Guardsmen articles they do.
So they CAN make better.
Aaaaand before we throw in "oh but precious stc stc stc!"
That's gone out the door.
Look at all the garbage being created nowadays. It's no longer an existing factor.
It's poor design and lazy design.
And this whole rubbish of "its comic on purpose"...no...because why does the Predator look like a functional tank next to the same universe russ???
Just grab a bloody churchill and slap some eagles on it.
Boom 100% better.
Uh huh. Predator, functional tank. Uh huh.
The Predator does not look any more like a functional tank. It's still really tall, it has twinned guns, and it has additional exposed sponson guns.
Okay, I take that back. There's historical precedence for M113-with-a-turret conversions. That said, they didn't wield tank guns, and didn't fight tanks. They were light recon vehicles, and if they were fighting tanks something had gone very wrong.
Mmmpi wrote:I'll 2nd Lord Katherine, and add that the US didn't like the 17lb gun in the Sherman because the gun was really too big for the turret. It was hard to load, was cramped for the gunner and commander to work around, and when it fired (reportedly) it would spray burning powder through the vehicle. Enough to remove eyebrows, but not much else.
The breech was mounted sideways, among other things. It was not a "good tank" in any sense. It was, however, an adequate tank, meeting the combat needs of WWII.
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Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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2019/03/13 23:50:06
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Douglas Bader
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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Uh huh. Predator, functional tank. Uh huh.
The Predator does not look any more like a functional tank. It's still really tall, it has twinned guns, and it has additional exposed sponson guns.
Functional =/= great. The Predator is not an ideal MBT design, it's more of an IFV with a bigger gun and has some archaic design choices.. But at least it is capable of movement, has enough space to hold the gun in the turret, etc. You wouldn't win a war against good tanks with Predators, but at least they'd be capable of making it to the battlefield and firing their weapons. And maybe that's good enough, and you're ok with an up-gunned IFV because it's still light enough for a Thunderhawk to carry a pair of them and strategic mobility overwhelms virtually every other concern with space marines.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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2019/03/14 00:01:58
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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@ILK
To be fair, a predator doesn't mount tank guns, just a large collection of infantry heavy weapons. It has the same firepower of a minimum sized devastator squad (2x Las cannon, 2x Hvy bolter, strombolter). It basically is an IFV that traded it's transport room for battery and ammo space, and some front plate armor.
As for the Firefly, I agree. It did the job, it just had many flaws that kept it out of service in the US army. The US 76 shermans however, did the same job without the flaws. They were just stuck in England depots because the tank commanders in France didn't think (from past experience) that they'd need them enough to justify the extra logistics work of adding them to their 75mm companies. Hindsight and all that on our part.
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2019/03/14 05:42:14
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Legendary Dogfighter
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 Crimson wrote:
They were not 'design a best possible functional tank' they were not even 'design a functional tank' they were 'design a tank that looks cool, but kinda ancient.' .
Well they botched that up then didn't they.
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2019/03/14 06:01:01
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Cool or not is subjective. I happen to like them overall, though I don't really use the GW models.
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2019/03/14 11:54:15
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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ValentineGames wrote: Crimson wrote:
They were not 'design a best possible functional tank' they were not even 'design a functional tank' they were 'design a tank that looks cool, but kinda ancient.' .
Well they botched that up then didn't they.
No.
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2019/03/14 14:20:32
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
London
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 Peregrine wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Uh huh. Predator, functional tank. Uh huh.
The Predator does not look any more like a functional tank. It's still really tall, it has twinned guns, and it has additional exposed sponson guns.
Functional =/= great. The Predator is not an ideal MBT design, it's more of an IFV with a bigger gun and has some archaic design choices.. But at least it is capable of movement, has enough space to hold the gun in the turret, etc. You wouldn't win a war against good tanks with Predators, but at least they'd be capable of making it to the battlefield and firing their weapons. And maybe that's good enough, and you're ok with an up-gunned IFV because it's still light enough for a Thunderhawk to carry a pair of them and strategic mobility overwhelms virtually every other concern with space marines.
Go back tot he original Rogue trader kit and rules it still had a transport capacity.
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2019/03/14 15:06:37
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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ValentineGames wrote: Crimson wrote:
They were not 'design a best possible functional tank' they were not even 'design a functional tank' they were 'design a tank that looks cool, but kinda ancient.' .
Well they botched that up then didn't they.
Definitely not.
It has all the right visual cues, taking design and aesthetic elements from early fighting vehicles.
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Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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2019/03/14 19:53:27
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Careful now Katherine, remember this is the internet where people view their opinions as facts. If you argue otherwise you're a "hater" or a "troll".
ValentineGames doesn't like the styling, so it's objectively bad.
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2019/03/14 21:45:09
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Legendary Dogfighter
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 Elbows wrote:Careful now Katherine, remember this is the internet where people view their opinions as facts. If you argue otherwise you're a "hater" or a "troll".
ValentineGames doesn't like the styling, so it's objectively bad.
As apposed to the other side of the coin am I right?
Oh wait...it's fine for them.
My eyes could not roll harder at the hypocrisy.
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2019/03/14 21:52:16
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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ValentineGames wrote: Elbows wrote:Careful now Katherine, remember this is the internet where people view their opinions as facts. If you argue otherwise you're a "hater" or a "troll".
ValentineGames doesn't like the styling, so it's objectively bad.
As apposed to the other side of the coin am I right?
Oh wait...it's fine for them.
My eyes could not roll harder at the hypocrisy.
given that sytling etc is a subjective opinion...
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2019/03/14 22:11:15
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Battleship Captain
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 Xenomancers wrote: Stormonu wrote:An Abrams tank can do 45 mph, so there’s that.
Honestly, I think if the Leman Russ were to exist now, it could easily best 2nd world county tanks, and in the numbers they would be deployed, could be a problem for 1st world tanks - as in WW2, Sherman’s vs. tigers.
Negative - our abrams armor core rolled up and destroyed about 2000 Iraqi tanks n about 6 hours in desert storm. We lost like 3 tanks in the engagement - 2 to friendly fire and 1 to scuttling. It was actually the first time the abrams had seen combat and were going up against entrenched Iraqi veterans. It really does to show how important technological advance is in modern warfare.
73 easting - the main battle - was 160 tanks killed to 0 (there was an APC casualty). The main advantages weren't actually the tanks, though, but the thermal sights, datalink comms and GPS, all of which were used in a night engagement for the first time - and those systems do exist on some patterns of leman russ
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Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
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2019/03/15 01:14:56
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
New Zealand
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locarno24 wrote: Xenomancers wrote: Stormonu wrote:An Abrams tank can do 45 mph, so there’s that.
Honestly, I think if the Leman Russ were to exist now, it could easily best 2nd world county tanks, and in the numbers they would be deployed, could be a problem for 1st world tanks - as in WW2, Sherman’s vs. tigers.
Negative - our abrams armor core rolled up and destroyed about 2000 Iraqi tanks n about 6 hours in desert storm. We lost like 3 tanks in the engagement - 2 to friendly fire and 1 to scuttling. It was actually the first time the abrams had seen combat and were going up against entrenched Iraqi veterans. It really does to show how important technological advance is in modern warfare.
73 easting - the main battle - was 160 tanks killed to 0 (there was an APC casualty). The main advantages weren't actually the tanks, though, but the thermal sights, datalink comms and GPS, all of which were used in a night engagement for the first time - and those systems do exist on some patterns of leman russ
Its amazing how a single generation in design can affect things so much. Another huge advantage was the powered traverse. The T-72's at 73 Easting had manual traverses. I am not sure if the Leman Russes turret has powered traverse or manual.
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2019/03/15 01:48:30
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances
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How about we turn this around... What modern battle tank do all of you think feels most "grim dark"?
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2019/03/15 02:14:24
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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 aka_mythos wrote:How about we turn this around... What modern battle tank do all of you think feels most "grim dark"?
the Bradley IFV.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2019/03/15 03:41:56
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
New Zealand
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So a Razorback with an autocannon?
All the latest tanks actually look very similar to each other. I suspect most people, who are not tank enthusiasts, cannot tell the difference between Abrams, Challengers and Leopards. In the Gulf War (Operation Enduring Freedom) reporters were calling a column of tanks on video Abrams; they were British and Challengers. For Grim Dark I would lean toward Russian designs. It would fit with the Chimeras being very similar to the BMPs.
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2019/03/15 04:44:03
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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aka_mythos wrote:How about we turn this around... What modern battle tank do all of you think feels most "grim dark"?
Modern tank is a hard call. Most of them feel more sleek and futuristic in their lines.
Maybe a BMPT Terminator. Doesn't quite capture the GrimDark feel, though.
That said, if you want a mean joke, the Bradley as mentioned above is a good pick! At least the movie Pentagon Wars was funny [though to be fair, the Bradley has done well in its service]
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Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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2019/03/15 08:11:57
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Leader of the Sept
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What about the Merkava? Transport capacity so you can drive people closer and covered in chains.
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Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
 Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
 51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
 Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 |
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2019/03/15 08:17:38
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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None of them are really grimdark on their own.
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2019/03/15 09:43:02
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Mysterious Techpriest
Fortress world of Ostrakan
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I back Mmmpi's opinion. I think the closest thing to grimdark MBT is an M1 Abrams with a mine plow, and only because of the mine plow.
Maybe the Russian Terminator or German Gepard Flakpanzer is getting close, but that's not an MBT.
If I had to call any tank the most grimdark, I'd give my vote to the Voldemort of armored vehicles, the PzKpfw VI. Just mentioning its name made people shiver and fear, seconded by nothing else than Churchill Crocodile.
To really make a grimdark tank, take the Tiger, give it the Flak 30/38 in sponsons and a low-angle auxiliary nebelwerfer launcher. BAM! Ready for 40k.
Actually...
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/15 09:50:52
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2019/03/15 10:10:50
Subject: Re:Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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 deotrims 16th wrote:
The ground clearance is better than modern MBT's. but yes the suspension is a BIG problem, but if you look at WWI tanks just like the leman Russ you would say it has no suspension, but they do, but because they are a TRENCH WARFARE tank its essentially a field of mud and so suspension, isn't needed.
I'm guessing you've never seen a WW1 battlefield. Suspension is definitely needed.
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
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2019/03/15 10:15:34
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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 Hawky wrote:I back Mmmpi's opinion. I think the closest thing to grimdark MBT is an M1 Abrams with a mine plow, and only because of the mine plow.
Maybe the Russian Terminator or German Gepard Flakpanzer is getting close, but that's not an MBT.
If I had to call any tank the most grimdark, I'd give my vote to the Voldemort of armored vehicles, the PzKpfw VI. Just mentioning its name made people shiver and fear, seconded by nothing else than Churchill Crocodile.
To really make a grimdark tank, take the Tiger, give it the Flak 30/38 in sponsons and a low-angle auxiliary nebelwerfer launcher. BAM! Ready for 40k.
Actually...
The most grimdark WW2 tank would be a sturmtiger.
End of story.
That or maybee a Pzbfw IV with sponsons.
Or, stuff like the independent / the russian landships.
Probably biased because i absolutely Adore the Malcador Defender, any malcador.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2019/03/15 13:58:01
Subject: Re:Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Jervis Johnson
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https://i.ibb.co/74mJwmp/1-DA0-C4-B1-0510-4-EAC-8577-D233-AFB2411-A.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/HxdXr7j/3-AA0-B5-E8-8944-4-CCB-A30-C-56901-CEB848-E.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/C6Qy91m/ADF8-D305-AF31-4-AFC-AF46-E2-F9-B7-BCBCE3.jpg
Some pictures of my Astra Militarum from a recent Grand Tournament (won 2nd overall) and of my Leman Russ modifications. The turret and cannon have been done simple improvements and they enhance the overall aesthetic a lot.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/03/15 14:02:49
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2019/03/15 14:10:01
Subject: Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Dakka Veteran
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Nice work, Therion!
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2019/03/15 14:47:07
Subject: Re:Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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They're cool, and very well done, but they enhance the 'doesn't work' (but still cool) part of the look. How do they load the shells?
(Still cool though)
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2019/03/15 15:25:37
Subject: Re:Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Mysterious Techpriest
Fortress world of Ostrakan
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I dealt with the Russ' silly design in my own way.
Hull is from an already existing and well known vehicle. The turret has been cut in half and widened in about 10mm, and the hatch has been moved as well, so it does not collide with the cannon breach. In fact, the commander would have the breach in the lower right quadrant of his field of vision, while looking straight forward.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/15 15:26:53
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2019/03/15 16:18:22
Subject: Re:Leman Russ design isn't that bad.
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Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer
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On that note, I recently picked up a “world war toons” Panther tank to represent a Leman Russ tank for my GSC. I could see that entire world war toon line being used to make more “realistic” Imperial tanks while still looking sufficiently grim Dark.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/15 16:19:17
It never ends well |
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Neutran Panzergrenadiers, 
Ostrakan Skitarii Legions, 
Order of the Silver Hand
