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I’ve been out of the loop. What have they done?

Unless the points have dropped dramatically nothing shown so far is overpowered. The majority of Khorne is underperforming; only Gore Pilgrims & Bloodthirsters have kept them relevant at all. As it stands they are not even OP, let alone on equal par with fotm cheese. Unless they are getting 25% point cuts across the board or some really broken artifact/command trait exploits they will not even be close to as strong as Skaven/FEC.

Endless 'spells' that you cannot unbind, cannot dispel, and have a massive effect, would be the first thing that comes to my mind. The strength of them combined with none of the counterplay typically found in Endless spells, and the other player not being able to control them if they go second in the battle round...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/13/mar-13-blades-of-khorne-preview-judgements-of-khorne-and-the-skull-altargw-homepage-post-4/

The first one they show is just absolute bonkers. It has a 28" threat range of it's effect. -2 to casting rolls is strong, but if you can't get away from them (because they can be shoved across the board quite quickly) and can't deal with them, because they're undispellable, you get to have the pleasant joy of not only -2 to cast rolls, but also, any fails if you're near both of the skulls results in your wizard losing that spell for the rest of the game, and suffering d6 damage.

Edit: math is hard

They cost an unknown amount of points, and instead of you being able to unbind them (which can fail) they have a chance to unbind themselves at the end of turn without you needing to do anything. Again, there could be factors we have not seen like ludicrously low points costs but as it stands we do not have enough evidence to call OP.

For sure, they could be costed appropriately, but I'm not even sure how much something like that should cost. A little premature on calling it overpowered to be certain, which is why I tried to avoid saying or implying that.

The Skulls seem as though they'll have a huge effect on the game, even if they're around for just one turn. Similar to the Skaven Warp Vortex spell, that I've had to ban myself from using in 'casual' games.

I dunno... If one's army only has 1-2 casts a turn then it will not be uncommon to go a turn where no spells go off. It isn't crippling unless you failed that spell you really needed, because one is already prepared for the case where the cast simply fails. If those skulls are following around all game it would be an issue, but I see them being more of a threat to armies that are doing enough casts that they are counting on getting something off every turn. Even then there are mechanics that can be used to counter play, like grey seer warpstone tokens or destiny dice.

The problem will be if they are so cheap every khorne army shows up with them by default.

Did you hear too that Wrathmongers now only affect other khorne units? Not only this that a boost, it also diminishes the fluff slightly imo.

It was changed from all models within 3", to friendly units wholly within 8". Easier to buff your own guys and characters, though it may be harder to get the buff off on allies in some cases. MSU seems to be the way to go for Mortals more and more... Though now, it may be worth it to keep Wrathmongers out of melee for as long as possible, situation depending.

A little disappointed that it no-longer effected enemies, since it could be used in fun ways to force a monster or something to attack Wrathmongers, lose one or two, and have the monster or hero immediately attack itself with a buffed up statline. That tactic should still be effective, you're just going to lose 1 attack on each weapon.

Lame, the part where wrathmongers buffed everyone was one of the best thematic elements. But I get why they did it mechanically, and given that better mechanical functionality is what players have been asking for I suppose I am happy with the change.

Though they tend to get rules wrong often, MWG put up a brief review-game using the new Khorne Battletome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xTHxUDQpV4

This gave us an important number to start with. Judgements of Khorne have a chance to disappear on the start of a new Battle-round. D6 roll, on a 1-4, the Judgement disappears. It changes to a 1-3 (+1 to the roll) if there is a Slaughterpriest "Nearby". Missing some more details, such as how much 'nearby' is, and if that chance to disappear is the same value for all judgements. No points shown, but perhaps that's in their longer review that's locked behind a pay wall?

Already, it's looking more manageable which is a good thing.

Here is a review where they also go over some details.

https://youtu.be/msf3zSK8k3g

Korgoraths are up a few points as well as Skullcrushers. Gore Pilgrim is down. Bloodthirsters and Skarbrand are staying the same. Most of the things are staying the same point-wise.

Considering the leaks so far I would say Blades of Khorne might end up as a good tome. Not over the top, but good. However, the thing I think it might bring to the table is a bit of a shakeup to any magical meta such as Nagash and Endless spells. This should be considered a good thing.

Only thing I am looking forward to see is if they tweaked Bloodreaver stats. I don't think that they are worth it at their current points at their current stats.

I saw the bloodreavers new statline. The only thing that’s changed is the fanatical devotion rule; the whole unit has to be within 16” of the totem now. So hopefully the points have been adjusted.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I saw the bloodreavers new statline. The only thing that’s changed is the fanatical devotion rule; the whole unit has to be within 16” of the totem now. So hopefully the points have been adjusted.

Same points as before...

On the bright side the Bloodsecrator can move so they are a bit more mobile and survivable.

Dissapointed bloodthirsters staying the same as they are undercosted IMO. The reduction they got in GHB2 was unjustified. If gore pilgrims went down I am betting they removed the prayer re-rolls. Bloodreaver change is nice since it means the same measurement for that and portal of skulls. With the Bloodsecrator able to move now I see it as a non-issue that they must be wholly within.

Overall liking the changes so far, and the way judgements work. Tentative 'good job' and doing a bit to restore faith that skaven/fec are a fluke.

I like the fact that Bloodtihe can be used to summon OR enhance your current unit a lot. I hope we see that with Tzeentch and eventually Slaanesh.

So far, nothing jumps out to me as too strong. Seems like the Pendulum has swung back to tough but fair.

I agree; Khorne summoning is among the best implemented because it is a trade-off rather than a flat 'free stuff because you play this army'.

I would even say that summoning for Khorne is often a False Choice and is even touched upon in a Warhammer Community article.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I would put Sequitors up by 30 tbh--their ability to chose between re-roll all saves or re-roll all hits is really strong and their large amount of special weapons (2 per 5 and the champion) coupled with good attack profiles means their damage output is quite high.

Liberators I would just drop by 10. If they were on 32mm I'd say they are fine as-is, but a 40mm base hurts them enough that I think they should go down a little.

I used to think that Both Evocators on Foot and Sequitors were really undercosted. With all the recent battletomes though, I don't think they are nearly as strong as they used to be. I really think a small points increase, if any, is really needed on these units. At this point I think most of the rest of the SCE units need a points drop.

After watching a couple of BoK reviews I think they have gone from "meh" to "meh" unless you are using the endless spells and the altar vs a magic heavy army. Then they become "Actually ok".

For me the worst change is that I can't lash anymore my Khorne Minotaurs with my Bloodstoker. That was the best thing ... just the mental image of the scene was beautifull.

 Sasori wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I would put Sequitors up by 30 tbh--their ability to chose between re-roll all saves or re-roll all hits is really strong and their large amount of special weapons (2 per 5 and the champion) coupled with good attack profiles means their damage output is quite high.

Liberators I would just drop by 10. If they were on 32mm I'd say they are fine as-is, but a 40mm base hurts them enough that I think they should go down a little.

I used to think that Both Evocators on Foot and Sequitors were really undercosted. With all the recent battletomes though, I don't think they are nearly as strong as they used to be. I really think a small points increase, if any, is really needed on these units. At this point I think most of the rest of the SCE units need a points drop.

You are saying the overwhelming majority units should be changed instead of a handful, which I think is proof those handful are the problem. Bear in mind that SCE outperform other armies by a huge margin; they are in the top 3 armies overall. To say the army needs a buff on the majority of the units flies in the face of balance (not to mention would be taking a crap on other armies).

And before the suggestion gets made that those other armies should see a points drop too; that would be reducing the cost of 80-90% of units rather than increasing the cost of 10-20%, which is more than a bit nonsensical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
After watching a couple of BoK reviews I think they have gone from "meh" to "meh" unless you are using the endless spells and the altar vs a magic heavy army. Then they become "Actually ok".

For me the worst change is that I can't lash anymore my Khorne Minotaurs with my Bloodstoker. That was the best thing ... just the mental image of the scene was beautifull.

You can't have whipped cream anymore? Lame.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I would put Sequitors up by 30 tbh--their ability to chose between re-roll all saves or re-roll all hits is really strong and their large amount of special weapons (2 per 5 and the champion) coupled with good attack profiles means their damage output is quite high.

Liberators I would just drop by 10. If they were on 32mm I'd say they are fine as-is, but a 40mm base hurts them enough that I think they should go down a little.

I used to think that Both Evocators on Foot and Sequitors were really undercosted. With all the recent battletomes though, I don't think they are nearly as strong as they used to be. I really think a small points increase, if any, is really needed on these units. At this point I think most of the rest of the SCE units need a points drop.

You are saying the overwhelming majority units should be changed instead of a handful, which I think is proof those handful are the problem. Bear in mind that SCE outperform other armies by a huge margin; they are in the top 3 armies overall. To say the army needs a buff on the majority of the units flies in the face of balance (not to mention would be taking a crap on other armies).

And before the suggestion gets made that those other armies should see a points drop too; that would be reducing the cost of 80-90% of units rather than increasing the cost of 10-20%, which is more than a bit nonsensical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
After watching a couple of BoK reviews I think they have gone from "meh" to "meh" unless you are using the endless spells and the altar vs a magic heavy army. Then they become "Actually ok".

For me the worst change is that I can't lash anymore my Khorne Minotaurs with my Bloodstoker. That was the best thing ... just the mental image of the scene was beautifull.

You can't have whipped cream anymore? Lame.

Ninth,

Do you mind providing your data point for saying that the SCE are in the "top 3 armies overall" and over-perform other armies by a huge margin? I can't find any data to support that. Just scrolling through the recent tournament results, I am not seeing anything that indicates that. Besides the LVO, you usually only get 1 if any SCE list, if any in the top 10. There are some mixed order lists that place well, but that is not the same as a pure SCE list. The Sheffield Slaughter didn't even have a SCE list in the top 10. Instead you saw FEC, Skaven, Deepkin, Nagash and a BoC army take it.

And yes, just because you have some over performing units, does not mean the rest of the units in the tome are correctly pointed. Palladors, all of the Paladin units, and most of the mounted units are over-pointed. Castigators are 26 points a pop, which is just absurd.

I used to think that Both Evocators on Foot and Sequitors were really undercosted.

Evocators were one of the highest undercost units in the game on the bellcurve of points paid per power and defense raw stats.

That changed with FEC and skaven book. Those books actually made evocators drop down to the top of the bell curve instead of being off of it, so that is true. With the new books their point cost is now (though at the top of) acceptable, which makes the other units that share their same role in the stormcast books some of the worst in the game in terms of being overcosted now.

 Sasori wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I would put Sequitors up by 30 tbh--their ability to chose between re-roll all saves or re-roll all hits is really strong and their large amount of special weapons (2 per 5 and the champion) coupled with good attack profiles means their damage output is quite high.

Liberators I would just drop by 10. If they were on 32mm I'd say they are fine as-is, but a 40mm base hurts them enough that I think they should go down a little.

I used to think that Both Evocators on Foot and Sequitors were really undercosted. With all the recent battletomes though, I don't think they are nearly as strong as they used to be. I really think a small points increase, if any, is really needed on these units. At this point I think most of the rest of the SCE units need a points drop.

You are saying the overwhelming majority units should be changed instead of a handful, which I think is proof those handful are the problem. Bear in mind that SCE outperform other armies by a huge margin; they are in the top 3 armies overall. To say the army needs a buff on the majority of the units flies in the face of balance (not to mention would be taking a crap on other armies).

And before the suggestion gets made that those other armies should see a points drop too; that would be reducing the cost of 80-90% of units rather than increasing the cost of 10-20%, which is more than a bit nonsensical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
After watching a couple of BoK reviews I think they have gone from "meh" to "meh" unless you are using the endless spells and the altar vs a magic heavy army. Then they become "Actually ok".

For me the worst change is that I can't lash anymore my Khorne Minotaurs with my Bloodstoker. That was the best thing ... just the mental image of the scene was beautifull.

You can't have whipped cream anymore? Lame.

Ninth,

Do you mind providing your data point for saying that the SCE are in the "top 3 armies overall" and over-perform other armies by a huge margin? I can't find any data to support that. Just scrolling through the recent tournament results, I am not seeing anything that indicates that. Besides the LVO, you usually only get 1 if any SCE list, if any in the top 10. There are some mixed order lists that place well, but that is not the same as a pure SCE list. The Sheffield Slaughter didn't even have a SCE list in the top 10. Instead you saw FEC, Skaven, Deepkin, Nagash and a BoC army take it.

And yes, just because you have some over performing units, does not mean the rest of the units in the tome are correctly pointed. Palladors, all of the Paladin units, and most of the mounted units are over-pointed. Castigators are 26 points a pop, which is just absurd.

Sure thing:


But besides, to say Sequitors & Evocators are fine is to say the vast majority of all units in the game are underpowered and need to be buffed. Which would technically be a way to achieve balance. However, if you have 10 units of which 6 are about average, 2 are weaker, and 2 are stronger the solution is not to bring the 8 in line with the 2 strongest; the solution is to bring the 4 outliers in line with the majority. If evocators & sequitors were in line with other armies it would be different, but they are much stronger than the average unit from other armies. So it becomes not only changing the points of the majority of SCE but changing the points of the majority of armies overall.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I would put Sequitors up by 30 tbh--their ability to chose between re-roll all saves or re-roll all hits is really strong and their large amount of special weapons (2 per 5 and the champion) coupled with good attack profiles means their damage output is quite high.

Liberators I would just drop by 10. If they were on 32mm I'd say they are fine as-is, but a 40mm base hurts them enough that I think they should go down a little.

I used to think that Both Evocators on Foot and Sequitors were really undercosted. With all the recent battletomes though, I don't think they are nearly as strong as they used to be. I really think a small points increase, if any, is really needed on these units. At this point I think most of the rest of the SCE units need a points drop.

You are saying the overwhelming majority units should be changed instead of a handful, which I think is proof those handful are the problem. Bear in mind that SCE outperform other armies by a huge margin; they are in the top 3 armies overall. To say the army needs a buff on the majority of the units flies in the face of balance (not to mention would be taking a crap on other armies).

And before the suggestion gets made that those other armies should see a points drop too; that would be reducing the cost of 80-90% of units rather than increasing the cost of 10-20%, which is more than a bit nonsensical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
After watching a couple of BoK reviews I think they have gone from "meh" to "meh" unless you are using the endless spells and the altar vs a magic heavy army. Then they become "Actually ok".

For me the worst change is that I can't lash anymore my Khorne Minotaurs with my Bloodstoker. That was the best thing ... just the mental image of the scene was beautifull.

You can't have whipped cream anymore? Lame.

Ninth,

Do you mind providing your data point for saying that the SCE are in the "top 3 armies overall" and over-perform other armies by a huge margin? I can't find any data to support that. Just scrolling through the recent tournament results, I am not seeing anything that indicates that. Besides the LVO, you usually only get 1 if any SCE list, if any in the top 10. There are some mixed order lists that place well, but that is not the same as a pure SCE list. The Sheffield Slaughter didn't even have a SCE list in the top 10. Instead you saw FEC, Skaven, Deepkin, Nagash and a BoC army take it.

And yes, just because you have some over performing units, does not mean the rest of the units in the tome are correctly pointed. Palladors, all of the Paladin units, and most of the mounted units are over-pointed. Castigators are 26 points a pop, which is just absurd.

Sure thing:

Can you provide the source that you are pulling that from please.

https://thehonestwargamer.com/

That chart is an aggregation of data since 2.0 launched. When it launched, Gloomspite was not released yet.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
https://thehonestwargamer.com/

That chart is an aggregation of data since 2.0 launched. When it launched, Gloomspite was not released yet.

Yes, and looking through the recent results and the data provided, it doesn't seem to indicate that Stormcast are the 3rd best Army or overwhelming better than most other armies as you put it originally.

Looking at their Aos 2.2 results, which appears the most recent, Stormcast rank 10th place, without a single win. The past fourteen events, Stormcast have placed in the top 3 four times, with 0 wins, 1 second place, and three 3rd places.

When you go to the larger breakdown AOS 2.2 of 5+ wins, SCE have the same number of 5+ wins as BOC, Maggotkin, and FEC, while sharing a much larger meta%, putting it's overall winrate lower than BoC FEC by nearly 10%. The other breakdown speaks to a similar story.

All this points to Stormcast not being the 3rd best at all, and with the release of Skaven and FEC it looks to send SCE even further down.

Ok, show me your data that shows the majority of stormcast units need to be buffed.

Are we back to tournament results are balanced thus the game as a whole is balanced again?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Ok, show me your data that shows the majority of stormcast units need to be buffed.

It's my opinion, which I didn't present as a fact like you did. That's why I asked for your Data, which we discovered doesn't fit what you were presenting as a fact.

 Sasori wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Ok, show me your data that shows the majority of stormcast units need to be buffed.

It's my opinion, which I didn't present as a fact like you did. That's why I asked for your Data, which we discovered doesn't fit what you were presenting as a fact.

Well I referenced the overall data since SCE last received an update. You asked me for my data then bent it to create a circumstance where what I said was no longer true. When called upon to provide backing for your position you fell back on 'it's just my opinion!'

I guess it is just my opinion that the most complete set of data we have should be presented as fact.

You also failed to address why the majority of units should be adjusted in points rather than the minority.