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 mokoshkana wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I use the GW Movement Trays for MSU units. Otherwise I am just using some 3D printed stuff I bought off ebay that is specifically created for pile-ins.

Do you happen to have a link for those?

Check out this guys options. They look pretty sweet! https://www.ebay.com/usr/uberjisha?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

These are the ones I bought.

Used them in a tourney yesterday and they worked really well.

Awesome, thanks for the info!

I have lost entire games due to being double turned. Ones that, had it followed a more normal sequence, I might have actually won. I just don’t like all your strategies and plans going out the window on account of a single dice roll.

Well look at that my prediction that the free peoples book would mix humans and dwarves was spot on. And elves too.

 auticus wrote:
Well look at that my prediction that the free peoples book would mix humans and dwarves was spot on. And elves too.

I think that's a good thing honestly. Less tome bloat, and it makes sense that your "normal" races would be able to be together (like Chris Peach's amazing mixed-race army)

I think a lot of people made that prediction.

Maybe. But ive sure taken a fair amount of heat suggesting it over the past few months.

You take heat for suggesting anything reasonable.

Kind of makes you wonder what he's actually taking heat for, doesn't it?

 EnTyme wrote:
Kind of makes you wonder what he's actually taking heat for, doesn't it?

Not really. If you follow what he says its all reasonable things, just it doesn't lend to the "combo CCG" or "must be competitive with world championships" or "must not encourage broken combos so powergamers and min/maxers get their fix" mindsets which have infested gaming the past decade or so.

People seem to get really heated at the idea that they can't game a system.

Yeah kind of makes you wonder, what am I really taking heat for? Im all ears! What content exactly riles you up and irritates you so?

Wayniac wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Kind of makes you wonder what he's actually taking heat for, doesn't it?

Not really. If you follow what he says its all reasonable things, just it doesn't lend to the "combo CCG" or "must be competitive with world championships" or "must not encourage broken combos so powergamers and min/maxers get their fix" mindsets which have infested gaming the past decade or so.

People seem to get really heated at the idea that they can't game a system.

Frankly, it also seems to have everything to do with where the suggestions are made.

Where are those suggestions made that are inappropriate?

 auticus wrote:
Where are those suggestions made that are inappropriate?

I suspect this is the "pissing in the wind" concept, that you're arguing against people who WANT that stuff and disliked the old 80/early 90s style of gaming. So here, TGA (although that site has its own issues) etc.

Sometimes it's not what you say, it's how you say it. Many, many people have suggested a combined Free Peoples battletome. You're the only one I've ever seen who claims to have taken flak for it. Maybe it's not the suggestion that's causing the flak.

Maybe not though the people goving flak were strangers that i didnt know.

Not even people with whom ive shared a disagreement with causing them to quip back negatively.

If the statement “im betting that the free peoples book mixes dwarves in as well” involves some kind of trigger words, im unaware of what those could be.

The flak seemed to be centered around the concept of non pure battletomes, which were undesirable to the commentor.

As to HOW i say things, this is a text-only medium. The only thing we have to communicate is precisely WHAT we type.

Connotation, inflection, voice, etc do not exist, though are often inferred how the perceiver wishes based on the agreeableness of the content of the presentor in such a medium.

Ie if you dont agree or even strongly dislike what i have to say, you apply the comic book guy snide tone to my writing.

If you agree with what i say, then my voice in your head is level headed and rational.

Naw text can convey emotions and attitudes, though it can fall flat when trying to use things like sarcasm unless you're very overt with it or support it heavily. If text couldn't then novels and stories would have no real meaning nor emotional content.


Also you're overlooking the other two voices. One is the voice of the avatar which can colour a persons impression of how things are said (this can also combine with the user name too). And the other is - well - currently half the text I read has the voice of Lucifer from Lucifer because its what's been playing for the last 2 or so hours as I'm slowly building Slaanesh models.




Wait is it bad that I just said that?!

Well for years my avatar was emperor palpatine so...

Well, I had my first truly bad balance experience as a filthy casual. Trolls in a smaller point games. Against multiple opponents my trolls just eat everything most games. I think part of it is that I'm facing so many minimum and 2x minimum units. They just don't put out enough wounds to take trolls down when there are only 10 attacks being resolved. And the flat 3 damage and -2 rend is pretty reliable.

Incidentally if there's ever a Meeting Engagement event, as many minimum size rock chucking troll units as you can fit split pretty evenly amount the three groups should be great.

In terms of my casual group I guess I'll take 750ish against their 1000 and see how it goes.

The filthy casual arena is where pretty much all of the negative play experiences are rooted. In the tournament scene if both players are rocking meta lists, the game is a lot more even.

Especially in small games with elite units. You take the wrong one and it'll massively skew the power of the list just in terms of proportions.

IMO fellwater & especially rock trolls are solidly OP now. Stats compared to point costs are just too good.

I wish you could see my shocked face.

Had some more games and 750 of trolls was fine against a non tuned 1000 points of Nighthaunt and against 1000 of Stormcast (both primarily Soul Wars models)

The Stormcast still had a rougher go of it because they're not ethereal.

That's worse than I thought. 750 vs 1000 is already a significant handicap, and Nighthaunt are a hard counter to trolls (ignore rend, reduce bravery). Starter set stormcast are universally good if not OP depending on the unit, bar castigators. That they had a tough go despite a third more points is a pretty bad sign.

I think part of it is that it's casual people playing starter set stuff largely at minimum unit sizes and trolls being pretty brainless in their way to play. A 10 model unit of sequitors rather than 2 x 5 or 20 chain rasps rather than 2x 10 and things would have been a lot harder. My opponents have all sorts of tactical options so that means more opportunities for mistakes. Whereas I'm going to basically head towards the objectives and kill what's there.

5-man sequitor units are generally ideal since you get three special weapons per 5 that way (the champion's doesn't count towards the limit, and he gets an extra attack). Also, we are looking at a significant handicap for the troll player already. All other context aside the army with 33% more points should probably be doing better, a lot better.

The issue is that the 5 sequitors get rocks chucked at them, get charged and then the trolls fight and -2 rend 3 damage reduces the unit (or totally removes it) and the sequitors remaining can't kill a single troll in response.

I think if the Stormcast player used their ability to deploy in the heavens and got the charge things would turn out differently, but I'm not sure how different. I think that's happened at least once during a game and a troll dies but even two hitting back removes way more Stormcast.

I don't know if we got the points right, but at even, it was ridiculous. At 850 to 1000 it still didn't feel close and at 750 it felt like I had to actually think about what I was doing. But again, because I have a few models and they are so straightforward I just went to objectives, did some fighting.

This is also one time where the general feeling of "we as the players can fix this by taking different points levels" isn't holding. The blowout games were bad enough that everyone seriously lost enthusiasm and their trust that the game will work within reason.

This is another area where balance issues hits the casuals the hardest. The most dejected gamer isn't looking to win, but just to do something. Not just take models off the table. Things are a bit better with the points difference but it still just feels crappy to have a unit basically wiped after you ponly get a save on a 6+ and take 6-12 wounds or whatever.

In our local chat group we were all enthusiastically post pictures of our next AoS models as we painted them. Now it's just sort of about Blackstone Fortress and Gaslands. We had two more months in our campaign but like no one is talking about scheduling games.

We've had no problems in the past tweaking points when things felt off, but I think the degree to which this felt bad might be just too much. I think I'm going to announce that I'm shelving my trolls and will be switching armies for the remainder of the campaign. Everyone has always had a blast playing against my mixed order so I'll probably pull them back out.

I think you should take what you just wrote then cut & paste it into an email to GW. Because it is something they need to hear.

How many games did you play? Could it have just been one of those games where you rolled super hot and everything just went your way? You could play a few more games and see if it keeps ending up the same if it was only 1. Otherwise, yeah that sounds rough.