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I am so far behind the current BL release schedule because I will only buy mass market paperbacks but anyway, as per title, did anyone notice the blatant rip-off of Rush lyrics in 'The Crimson King' novel, to wit:

"When the waters rose
In the darkness
In the wake of the endless flood
It flowed into our memory
It flowed into our blood"


Which is quoted to one of the characters - I haven't got the exact page reference in front of me.

It's lifted directly from the Rush song, High Water. Obviously, Graham McNeill is a big fan.

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To be fair, it's only plagiarism if it isn't credited...

 
   
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 insaniak wrote:
To be fair, it's only plagiarism if it isn't credited...


Was it credited? I didn't see anything...

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Graham McNeill is a massive fan of putting real world references into 40k, they are meant as easter eggs for you to pick up, ESPECIALLY in his Thousand Sons work, due to their themes of preservation and collection of knowledge. That is not the only song referenced in that book, he also has references to "The Court Of The Crimson King" by *King Crimson* in there, as well as "Epitaph" by them as the themes really suit the Thousand Sons. Consider the words of the song High Water by Rush, and the fact that they refer to the Warp as the great Ocean, and see if you can see any parallels between the song and the Thousand Sons. https://genius.com/Rush-high-water-lyrics

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/09 00:19:28


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It's a fair use and copyright issue in a commercial product using non-public domain works, they would have to go out and specifically get permission to use part of a copyrighted work (ask nicely and try to get for free or pay them money or royalties, whatever). They could very well have secured the rights to use the lyrics from the owner but there's scenarios that could have happened to use the lyrics without securing the rights; they don't think they'll get sued or think they'll get a fair use judgement (maybe, kinda unlikely of a publisher, usually they'd just tell the author to drop it rather than risk money defending it) or the author is stupid and the publisher didn't catch it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/11 14:25:08


 
   
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Perfectly legit, without credit or congratulatory notes to the band, so long as it was all cleared with the songs copyright holder before publishing.

   
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Games Workshop getting sued for copyright infringement would be some rather hilarious karma.

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 inflatablefriend wrote:
Perfectly legit, without credit or congratulatory notes to the band, so long as it was all cleared with the songs copyright holder before publishing.



I don't believe it was cleared because there are no credits given. Usually there is a reference given on the flyleaf of the book "blah, blah by so and so used by permission of xyz music publishers'. If you have ever read a Stephen King novel, you will see lots of them as he usually puts lyrical excerpts at the start of chapters etc. If you turn to the front page where the printing and edition info is, the credits are usually listed there.

The reason why I made the thread is because being a big Rush fan, it jumped right out at me and seemed particularly jarring. It didn't seem to me, in my opinion, that it fit and struck me as an attempt to crowbar the lyrics in there. I have to say, it came across to me as a little childish; I mean, I snuck some lyrics from 'Freewill' into a poem I submitted for an English class when I was 13 because I knew the teacher would miss the reference.

Not sure about the wisdom of doing it in an actual, published novel though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/09 19:41:22


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I'm fairly sure that with books you have some leeway - otherwise every mention of coca-cola in a book would require a licence and such - or mention of a starbucks etc... You'd probably be able to wipe out most of the modern fiction in a heartbeat!

There's probably some specific legal limits and criteria.

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I don’t know about all copyright law, but I wouldn’t be surprised about exceptions for things that have come into such common usage, a la “Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn”.

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Well the thing is when the reverse happens GW goes at them like hawks.

It is one thing to mention a product or a thing, almost everything is proctected by some sort of patent. But it is another thing to put something down in your book, which you did not write, and claim you did. I know that if you try to do something like that while writing your high school end work, you get zero points. And if they catch you trying to pull something like that when you do masters or bachelor, you can even go to jail.

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Karol wrote:
Well the thing is when the reverse happens GW goes at them like hawks.

It is one thing to mention a product or a thing, almost everything is proctected by some sort of patent. But it is another thing to put something down in your book, which you did not write, and claim you did. I know that if you try to do something like that while writing your high school end work, you get zero points. And if they catch you trying to pull something like that when you do masters or bachelor, you can even go to jail.


Correct. At the best, it is fan homage that should be credited and at the worst, it is naked plagiarism, hence the title of the thread.

Now I don't believe for a second that the author intended to pass it off as his own work, but I do believe it is a little bit ham-fisted. The authorship should be made clear.

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I wonder how many other cases there are of songs being transcribed in part in books and where would you draw the line?

What about hymns or national anthems - more modern hymns would still be under copyright.

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 Overread wrote:
I'm fairly sure that with books you have some leeway - otherwise every mention of coca-cola in a book would require a licence and such - or mention of a starbucks etc... You'd probably be able to wipe out most of the modern fiction in a heartbeat!

There's probably some specific legal limits and criteria.

It's complicated.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/question-using-portion-of-song-without-permission-28112.html

Courts will consider four factors to determine whether a person’s use of the copyrighted work—in your case, a song—qualifies as fair use:

the purpose and character of the use, for example if your project is for profit
the nature of the copyrighted work, for instance, if the song is a famous Billboard hit or an academic piece of music
the amount of the copyrighted work that you used in your project, and
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

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Coca-Cola and Starbucks are trademarks, not copyrighted works. There's a huge difference between those two things. It's also worth noting that their logos are copyrighted. You could write a book with characters described as going into a Starbucks Coffee shop and drinking Coca-Cola, but do the same in a graphic novel with reproductions of their logos and you could have problems

As for the Rush lyrics, if BL weren't granted permission to use the lyrics then it'd likely be a breach of copyright and BL could be sued by the copyright holder or presented with a big bill.

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 inflatablefriend wrote:
Coca-Cola and Starbucks are trademarks, not copyrighted works. There's a huge difference between those two things. It's also worth noting that their logos are copyrighted. You could write a book with characters described as going into a Starbucks Coffee shop and drinking Coca-Cola, but do the same in a graphic novel with reproductions of their logos and you could have problems

As for the Rush lyrics, if BL weren't granted permission to use the lyrics then it'd likely be a breach of copyright and BL could be sued by the copyright holder or presented with a big bill.
There is a thing called fair use. Pretty sure a novel is a transformative work.
   
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 BaconCatBug wrote:
 inflatablefriend wrote:
Coca-Cola and Starbucks are trademarks, not copyrighted works. There's a huge difference between those two things. It's also worth noting that their logos are copyrighted. You could write a book with characters described as going into a Starbucks Coffee shop and drinking Coca-Cola, but do the same in a graphic novel with reproductions of their logos and you could have problems

As for the Rush lyrics, if BL weren't granted permission to use the lyrics then it'd likely be a breach of copyright and BL could be sued by the copyright holder or presented with a big bill.
There is a thing called fair use. Pretty sure a novel is a transformative work.


Fair use is not a magic term that can be waved around as an excuse. The following is a good read on the subject:

https://www.janefriedman.com/permissions-and-fair-use/

With this being pertinent:

It is expected that you always credit your source regardless of fair use; otherwise, you are plagiarizing.


and

Because songs and poems are so short, it’s dangerous to use even 1 line without asking for permission, even if you think the use could be considered fair.


Otherwise every university student in the land could reproduce reams of published works in exams whilst claiming fair use.

Whichever way you see it and it's clear there is no defined legal line, it is still naughty to reproduce someone else's work without proper attribution.

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 BaconCatBug wrote:
 inflatablefriend wrote:
Coca-Cola and Starbucks are trademarks, not copyrighted works. There's a huge difference between those two things. It's also worth noting that their logos are copyrighted. You could write a book with characters described as going into a Starbucks Coffee shop and drinking Coca-Cola, but do the same in a graphic novel with reproductions of their logos and you could have problems

As for the Rush lyrics, if BL weren't granted permission to use the lyrics then it'd likely be a breach of copyright and BL could be sued by the copyright holder or presented with a big bill.
There is a thing called fair use. Pretty sure a novel is a transformative work.


Fair use would imply the lyrics were important and a part of the works subject, not just being used because it's all meta and eastereggy.

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 inflatablefriend wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 inflatablefriend wrote:
Coca-Cola and Starbucks are trademarks, not copyrighted works. There's a huge difference between those two things. It's also worth noting that their logos are copyrighted. You could write a book with characters described as going into a Starbucks Coffee shop and drinking Coca-Cola, but do the same in a graphic novel with reproductions of their logos and you could have problems

As for the Rush lyrics, if BL weren't granted permission to use the lyrics then it'd likely be a breach of copyright and BL could be sued by the copyright holder or presented with a big bill.
There is a thing called fair use. Pretty sure a novel is a transformative work.


Fair use would imply the lyrics were important and a part of the works subject, not just being used because it's all meta and eastereggy.



in this case it would proably fall under fair use for homage

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BrianDavion 772569 10374347 wrote:

in this case it would proably fall under fair use for homage

So if someone makes shoulder pads and weapons that fit marines, and then starts selling them, the way GW sells their books, it is ok as long as they say they are doing it as a homage to GW products which they are great fans of?

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BrianDavion wrote:
 inflatablefriend wrote:


Fair use would imply the lyrics were important and a part of the works subject, not just being used because it's all meta and eastereggy.



in this case it would proably fall under fair use for homage


There's Homage fair use? That's doesn't appear to be something under the UK IP laws. The exceptions are weighted towards disability, academia and private use.

The trouble with claiming fair use is that it's a legal defense, not an exception.

From my admittedly fairly limited experience with copyright law it's the kind of thing that gets you a letter saying something along the lines of "you've breached our copyright on these grounds, here's a big bill for the use so far and our lawyers time. Pay in 30 days or we'll to start legal proceedings to protect our copyright.
Also, you'll need to contact us to negotiate terms for continued use."

It'd be up to the BL to pay or decide if they wanted to risk court and argue fair use.

It's pretty sucky, but we're talking about music publishers. Just look at how fiercely ott they can be with copyright protection
   
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Karol wrote:
BrianDavion 772569 10374347 wrote:

in this case it would proably fall under fair use for homage

So if someone makes shoulder pads and weapons that fit marines, and then starts selling them, the way GW sells their books, it is ok as long as they say they are doing it as a homage to GW products which they are great fans of?


You seem to think this is some kind of "gotcha", but even among GW fans only the most brainwashed kool aid-slurpers would have any problem with people making aftermarket parts for GW models, regardless of what their reasoning was. Unless you're suggesting that is somehow wrong, in which case - lol, Chapterhouse.

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GW has always and does still reference popular culture.

In partiuclar the Cain novels have vast amounts of it.

Many authors I read across different genre do - I am not sure of the rules on this. Same as TV shows.

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Again, it is not a case of a cultural reference nor is it reference to a trademark like Coca-Cola within the context of a story both of which are entirely appropriate use cases; it is lifting an entire passage of lyrical content from someone else's work without denoting due attribution.

If I were to submit a Rush song as a piece of poetry and publish it under my own name, then that is plagiarism, pure and simple. It's the sort of thing a bunch of Uni students got expelled for a while ago. It's taken quite seriously in academia and rightly so. You should never claim others' work as your own.

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I feel like there's a difference from coping an publishing a poem and calling it your own when its not and publishing a single paragraph from a poem in a book that has nothing to do with poetry.

I mean I get the whole referencing thing when it comes to writing academic papers and of giving proper references; but at the same time this is a work of fiction and the quotation isn't even a major part of the story itself.

I'm no legal adviser but I'm fairly sure that there is a difference here between the two; or at least it feels like it should be. Sort of makes me wonder about Discworld because I know there are a stupidly high number of popular references to the modern world in that and I wonder if we get the same in something like the one where they discover Music with Rocks in it.

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Yeah this isn't plagierism, just a reference. Clickbait topic.
   
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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 filbert wrote:
Again, it is not a case of a cultural reference nor is it reference to a trademark like Coca-Cola within the context of a story both of which are entirely appropriate use cases; it is lifting an entire passage of lyrical content from someone else's work without denoting due attribution.

If I were to submit a Rush song as a piece of poetry and publish it under my own name, then that is plagiarism, pure and simple. It's the sort of thing a bunch of Uni students got expelled for a while ago. It's taken quite seriously in academia and rightly so. You should never claim others' work as your own.


Nobody seemed to give a gak when they were "plagiarising" Shakespeare or Milton or ancient Greek philosophers, probably because when you remove the oddity that is "being a fan" and the bizarre reality of modern copyright law(or rather, people's warped perception of it - a construction that exists as it does almost entirely due to a century of corporate lobbying and propaganda) it's pretty evident how trivial and normal it is to crib a few well-known lines that your intended audience will almost certainly recognise the source of.

All this hysteria over copyright/"plagiarism" etc these days is getting farcical - who's the next target in your Great Crusade filbert, buskers? People retelling jokes down the pub? Will you berate everyone you see using Arbites models for encouraging copyright infringement, given they're pretty transparent "homages" to Judge Dread?

That people will seriously sit there and argue sticking a handful of lines from a song in a novel as an easter egg for fellow fans of the source material is even on the same ethical continent as wholesale passing off a complete work of art or literature or academic study as your own work is just spectacularly wonko.

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Overread wrote:I feel like there's a difference from coping an publishing a poem and calling it your own when its not and publishing a single paragraph from a poem in a book that has nothing to do with poetry.

I mean I get the whole referencing thing when it comes to writing academic papers and of giving proper references; but at the same time this is a work of fiction and the quotation isn't even a major part of the story itself.

I'm no legal adviser but I'm fairly sure that there is a difference here between the two; or at least it feels like it should be. Sort of makes me wonder about Discworld because I know there are a stupidly high number of popular references to the modern world in that and I wonder if we get the same in something like the one where they discover Music with Rocks in it.


Nope. That's not how it works. There is no difference between copying in academia and copying popular music lyrics in a novel. Both are misappropriation of someone else's ideas and intellectual property. That is the dictionary definition of plagiarism.

As far as I am aware, Terry Pratchett has never inserted real-life song lyrics in his novels; he takes real-world situations and examples and reworks/rewords them for the purposes of humour and satire. This is not the same. Again, to reiterate, this is an entire passage of song lyrics (clumsily IMO) inserted into a novel.

Stux wrote:Yeah this isn't plagierism, just a reference. Clickbait topic.


It would be nice if you could read the thread before summarily dismissing stuff out of hand in order to provoke a reaction.

Consider the following:

https://www.writersdigest.com/editor-blogs/questions-and-quandaries/legal-questions/can-i-use-song-lyrics-in-my-manuscript

Song lyrics are copyrighted, which means you need permission to use them. According to our legal expert Amy Cook, there isn’t any specific law about how much you can take under fair use, but it’s common for the music industry to say you need permission for even one line of a song.


The music industry is pretty vigilant about song lyrics,” Cook says. “This is especially true if you’re using the lyrics in a novel to progress the story or add atmosphere.


Again, I must reiterate, I don't this has been done maliciously or as an intent to pass off Rush lyrics as the author's own work; I Just think credit should be given where due. If the author did seek permission, then fine. But it should be credited appropriately.


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 Yodhrin wrote:


That people will seriously sit there and argue sticking a handful of lines from a song in a novel as an easter egg for fellow fans of the source material is even on the same ethical continent as wholesale passing off a complete work of art or literature or academic study as your own work is just spectacularly wonko.


That's your opinion. I don't agree with it but nor would I suggest that I am on some sort of 'crusade', as you put it. I just think credit should be given where due.

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 filbert wrote:
Again, it is not a case of a cultural reference nor is it reference to a trademark like Coca-Cola within the context of a story both of which are entirely appropriate use cases; it is lifting an entire passage of lyrical content from someone else's work without denoting due attribution.

If I were to submit a Rush song as a piece of poetry and publish it under my own name, then that is plagiarism, pure and simple. It's the sort of thing a bunch of Uni students got expelled for a while ago. It's taken quite seriously in academia and rightly so. You should never claim others' work as your own.


Having a passage from a song in a novel is not the same as publishing a entire song on its own and claming it as their own. That being said, many authors I have read tend to list when they have used such devices - be that anicent poems or modern pop songs however not always.

In this particular case was there any oblique reference - usually I found that BL tend to reference direct quotes with it being the work of some 1st / 2nd century auther and spell the name slightly wrong or similar to show how clarity has been lost.

I don't recall ever hearing a Rush song (not sure who they are) so I would not have understood it was a reference.

What is the cultural understanding of Easter Eggs and what ever the same thing is called as regards to litererature

(I really wish I could get the spell check to work on this forum)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/10 12:50:02


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