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Would you still collect your chapter if GW do away with all the flavour and make marines just standard primaris, with no TWC, DC, Ravenwing etc.

Whats the point then? Part of 40k is the flavor and customization of ones army. Why not remove all models and play with battle caps then?

Nope, my fledgeling deathwatch project would be ebayed for a loss without question if I was forced into primaris marines. They are the exact opposite of every reason I thought deathwatch were a compelling faction.

Implying that TWC, DC, Ravenwing can't be made into Primaris?

I'd want more context for this - is it just embiggening the old marines? Do those groups now not exist on tabletop, but do in the lore? Do units like bikers, Vanguard Veterans and Company Veterans still exist in the game? Have they been cut from the lore?

I'd be fine with the first two - the models being bigger is hardly a problem to me.
If the rules for those units didn't exist, but did in the lore, and still had a rough analogue to port them over to, I'd be fine with that. Just take the closest analogue and play count-as. Other SM factions have had to do the same when they didn't have fancy unique units (before Deathwatch came out, people just used Sternguard Veterans).

If those units didn't exist in lore any more, than I'd have a problem.

So, the TL;DR answer - no, I don't think I'd have a problem.

It severely depends on HOW this change would be implemented, but most likely, yes I would keep all my stuff.

Although I have quite a collection of ALL CHAPTERs old Marines (see my Sig), the only Marine army I have is DW.
If GW "removes the flavor" meaning no more Chapter Tactics (which the DW equivalent is Mission Tactics), then yeah, I'd still play them as SIA would still be a thing.

If, however "removing all the flavor" means DW, BA, DA, SW & GKs are just vanilla Primaris, then obviously the answer would have to be No for me, since my models would no longer be valid in any sort of way (mostly StormVets)
Unless having a StormShield & StormBolter could "count-as" having 2Ws and a Bolt Rifle.

-

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Would you still collect your chapter if GW do away with all the flavour and make marines just standard primaris, with no TWC, DC, Ravenwing etc.

Yes. When I started, Space Wolves were distinguished from every other non-Grey Knights Space Marine army by the colour of their armour. My "one day" Space Marine army consists of the Marines from the 2nd to 6th edition starter sets, so mostly Ultramarines with some Blood Angels and Dark Angels and Black Templars; I'd quite happily run them all simply as Space Marines.

As long as the background is there, I can still make them different by the tactics and wargear I use. If it's not a problem for Ancients and Napoleonics players, it's not a problem for me.

Would it mean that GW stops being so damn Marine-centric?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Would it mean that GW stops being so damn Marine-centric?

hahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa

no.

It means this primaris business is a contrived excuse to update the army that least needs an update to its model range in the entire game, again, with a huge new bevy of plastic kits. This time, with an additional stick to convince the cash cows to keep chowing down on those sprues in addition to the usual carrot: update now, or we will strongly imply but never outright say your army will be out of date!

I wouldn't sell my stuff since I'm more of a builder/painter/collector.

but I dont have any "weird" marine units since my Salamanders only get cool stuff in 30k.

Would be lovely to see Marine chapters distinguished by culture and tradition again instead of reducing them to gimmicky and often comical units.

To me, yeah, that would be one of the genuinely positive things to come out of this Primaris malarkey.

I play Salamanders, so I don't get any specialty units anyway.

Pretty much no matter how vanilla you made them, I'd still play Salamanders if I'm playing marines at all, because they're so easy to paint.

That would be incredibly stupid. But everything GW seems to release for GW comes from a horrorscape so I don't care.

As a Raven Guard player, I am kind of living with this right now.

The iconic Raven Guard unit, the lightning claw vanguard vet, is pretty much unplayable. Assault marines are even worse. Other fluffly models like landspeeders, and the 'Storm' flyers, are crippled by lack of invuln and no chapter tactics.

The new vanguard primaris will help a bit I guess, but if the point leaks are true they are going to be too expensive point wise to really be viable. I also abhor the naming conventions of the primaris models "Army of Ors" so much that I dont even like bringing them.

I wish we had our 7th edition special formations back. We dont need to be as killy as blood angels, but we should have other tricks, perhaps be able to have more movement options / special abilitys to assassinate characters.

I feel like my army is hamstrung by being balanced around Guilleman, which is incredibly frustrating.

I don't think we need to worry, my bet is that they'll release 3 waves of primaris, and then re-release codices for the various marine factions and include at least one chaptter specific primaris unit

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Would you still collect your chapter if GW do away with all the flavour and make marines just standard primaris, with no TWC, DC, Ravenwing etc.

I stopped collecting Space Wolves because of crap like Santa Logan, Thunderwolfy wolf Wolves and the new dancing Wolfen - compared to those abominations the Primaris are a breath of fresh air.

The iconic Raven Guard unit, the lightning claw vanguard vet, is pretty much unplayable. Assault marines are even worse. Other fluffly models like landspeeders, and the 'Storm' flyers, are crippled by lack of invuln and no chapter tactics.

Never understood why any of those were somehow signature Raven Guard units - now the new stealth snipers is something TRaven Guard should have had ages ago...

The problem, to me, with giving Wolf Guard, Deathwing, etc. profiles that are significantly different from "a Terminator" is that there isn't a good logical cutoff; why is a Wolf Guard Terminator or a Deathwing Terminator its own thing, but a Firedrake or a Gorgon Terminator isn't?

You could cut back on the endless proliferation of different Space Marines and write, say, two different Terminator statblocks (a loyalist one with loyalist loadouts and a Chaos one with Chaos loadouts), and say "We may sell ten different kits you can build these out of, but maybe you should treat them as alternate sculpts for these ten different units instead of writing ten different profiles so each box has distinct rules", but the irritating inverse of GW's refusal to write rules for anything they sell a model for is their insistence that every box of models has to have different rules from every other box.

At some point the game has to simulate a very wide range of things, from Grots to Titans, and there isn't enough time, space, or energy to be worrying about the subtle differences between slightly different versions of what is essentially the same unit. Especially when there are ten different Terminator kits and still no plastic Aspect Warriors.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The problem, to me, with giving Wolf Guard, Deathwing, etc. profiles that are significantly different from "a Terminator" is that there isn't a good logical cutoff; why is a Wolf Guard Terminator or a Deathwing Terminator its own thing, but a Firedrake or a Gorgon Terminator isn't?

You could cut back on the endless proliferation of different Space Marines and write, say, two different Terminator statblocks (a loyalist one with loyalist loadouts and a Chaos one with Chaos loadouts), and say "We may sell ten different kits you can build these out of, but maybe you should treat them as alternate sculpts for these ten different units instead of writing ten different profiles so each box has distinct rules", but the irritating inverse of GW's refusal to write rules for anything they sell a model for is their insistence that every box of models has to have different rules from every other box.

At some point the game has to simulate a very wide range of things, from Grots to Titans, and there isn't enough time, space, or energy to be worrying about the subtle differences between slightly different versions of what is essentially the same unit. Especially when there are ten different Terminator kits and still no plastic Aspect Warriors.

Damn straight Sir !

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Whats the point then? Part of 40k is the flavor and customization of ones army. Why not remove all models and play with battle caps then?

You mean exploiting OP rules and min-maxing, eh?

I like the entitlement from some posters here, the 'vanilla' chapters (namely, successors, who constitute only 98% of all SM) already have rules so barebone and so few options to take compared to big 9 (especially with dumb keyword rulings banning them from taking parent chapter relics and officers) that any player taking these already has to make do with what flavour they can wring out of decorative bits and paint jobs instead of taking dumb wolfwolf ballerinas or pajama dangles for ridiculous rules that take dump on flavour and break verisimilitude. Maybe you should take notes before raising your noses? So, yeah, let me play the Imperium's tiniest violin as someone who likes several obscure chapters that will never get that OP ""flavour"" totally-balanced-unit-of-the-month

 Valentine009 wrote:
The new vanguard primaris will help a bit I guess, but if the point leaks are true they are going to be too expensive point wise to really be viable. I also abhor the naming conventions of the primaris models "Army of Ors" so much that I dont even like bringing them.

As opposed to devastators, all sorts of terminators, contemptors, servitors, predators, venators, fire raptors, vindicators, etc etc?

Also, reivers, hellblasters, astraeus and all primaris officers say hi.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Implying that TWC, DC, Ravenwing can't be made into Primaris?

I'd want more context for this - is it just embiggening the old marines? Do those groups now not exist on tabletop, but do in the lore? Do units like bikers, Vanguard Veterans and Company Veterans still exist in the game? Have they been cut from the lore?

I'd be fine with the first two - the models being bigger is hardly a problem to me.
If the rules for those units didn't exist, but did in the lore, and still had a rough analogue to port them over to, I'd be fine with that. Just take the closest analogue and play count-as. Other SM factions have had to do the same when they didn't have fancy unique units (before Deathwatch came out, people just used Sternguard Veterans).

If those units didn't exist in lore any more, than I'd have a problem.

So, the TL;DR answer - no, I don't think I'd have a problem.

Never implied that, just gave a hypothetical if GW did go that way.

 Irbis wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Whats the point then? Part of 40k is the flavor and customization of ones army. Why not remove all models and play with battle caps then?

You mean exploiting OP rules and min-maxing, eh?

I like the entitlement from some posters here, the 'vanilla' chapters (namely, successors, who constitute only 98% of all SM) already have rules so barebone and so few options to take compared to big 9 (especially with dumb keyword rulings banning them from taking parent chapter relics and officers) that any player taking these already has to make do with what flavour they can wring out of decorative bits and paint jobs instead of taking dumb wolfwolf ballerinas or pajama dangles for ridiculous rules that take dump on flavour and break verisimilitude. Maybe you should take notes before raising your noses? So, yeah, let me play the Imperium's tiniest violin as someone who likes several obscure chapters that will never get that OP ""flavour"" totally-balanced-unit-of-the-month

 Valentine009 wrote:
The new vanguard primaris will help a bit I guess, but if the point leaks are true they are going to be too expensive point wise to really be viable. I also abhor the naming conventions of the primaris models "Army of Ors" so much that I dont even like bringing them.

As opposed to devastators, all sorts of terminators, contemptors, servitors, predators, venators, fire raptors, vindicators, etc etc?

Also, reivers, hellblasters, astraeus and all primaris officers say hi.

What are you talking about? I dont even play marines b.c they are boring, removing everything but primaris would mean they are just as boring as bottle caps. 1 unit with 1 gun, 1 another unit with 1 another gun, no options, no melee, thats primaris marines.

I could care less if Tac marines go or stay, but removing specialist units that define the armies is another matter, WS without woves, DA without DC/Sang, DA without Terms/Bikes, thats silly, why have 1 SM army with 0 options in style? How is that entitlement?

It honestly sounds like you are the one with the problem "Wolfwold ballerinas or pajama dangles" whats that about?

I've played Death Guard from 5th edition onwards where it basically had no real flavorful rules (just like all other CSM) aside from the mark of Nurgle (which luckily was always the most useful one and helped every unit, unlike the other marks). So... I could live with that probably.

 Irbis wrote:
So, yeah, let me play the Imperium's tiniest violin as someone who likes several obscure chapters that will never get that OP ""flavour"" totally-balanced-unit-of-the-month

.

I am not sure you would want a Grey Knight flavoured book. If GW streamlined stuff and GK got access to normal marine stuff like stormshields and primaris, it would be nice. Even if it would mean losing those "characterful" options of nemezis weapons on 1A models or SB without any special ammo suddenly getting special ammo. I think I could survive such a paradigma shift. Non 40+pts termintors would be cool too.

Karol wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
So, yeah, let me play the Imperium's tiniest violin as someone who likes several obscure chapters that will never get that OP ""flavour"" totally-balanced-unit-of-the-month

.

I am not sure you would want a Grey Knight flavoured book. If GW streamlined stuff and GK got access to normal marine stuff like stormshields and primaris, it would be nice. Even if it would mean losing those "characterful" options of nemezis weapons on 1A models or SB without any special ammo suddenly getting special ammo. I think I could survive such a paradigma shift. Non 40+pts termintors would be cool too.

Psst. you can do that now. I remember a whole edition when everyone was proxying their existing marines as your guys. You can do the same thing if you really hate your rules. A power weapon/storm bolter GK terminator can be a power weapon/storm bolter Deathwatch terminator, you just have to say it is.

the_scotsman 772666 10376986l wrote:

Psst. you can do that now. I remember a whole edition when everyone was proxying their existing marines as your guys. You can do the same thing if you really hate your rules. A power weapon/storm bolter GK terminator can be a power weapon/storm bolter Deathwatch terminator, you just have to say it is.

Am not sure why new GK players should care, why people playing longe then them had bad expiriance with their army. From what I have been told eldar were very good last edition, and an edition before that, and another edition before that too. Where is their nerf, where are the space marines nerfs, everyone told me marines were good last edition and they can field playable armies right now

And no I can't field GK termintors as DW, I asked at my store, nemezis power weapons look like one specific weapon DW can have making them invalid for WYSIWYG. And it wasn't even the question I asked, I asked if it could be possible, and the store owner pointed the illegality out to me.

Karol wrote:

the_scotsman 772666 10376986l wrote:

Psst. you can do that now. I remember a whole edition when everyone was proxying their existing marines as your guys. You can do the same thing if you really hate your rules. A power weapon/storm bolter GK terminator can be a power weapon/storm bolter Deathwatch terminator, you just have to say it is.

Am not sure why new GK players should care, why people playing longe then them had bad expiriance with their army. From what I have been told eldar were very good last edition, and an edition before that, and another edition before that too. Where is their nerf, where are the space marines nerfs, everyone told me marines were good last edition and they can field playable armies right now

And no I can't field GK termintors as DW, I asked at my store, nemezis power weapons look like one specific weapon DW can have making them invalid for WYSIWYG. And it wasn't even the question I asked, I asked if it could be possible, and the store owner pointed the illegality out to me.

I'm sorry, that's right, you are shackled to the wall daily and forced to play all GK terminator lists against competitive eldar soup lists, lost and powerless to do anything but relay your tale of sadness and woe to those more fortunate. I forgot momentarily, carry on.

Well, hopefully all marines are replaced with primaris then, that'd probably solve everything.

I could care less if Tac marines go or stay, but removing specialist units that define the armies is another matter, WS without woves, DA without DC/Sang, DA without Terms/Bikes, thats silly, why have 1 SM army with 0 options in style? How is that entitlement?

NOT what was suggested - the entitlement is for several snowflake Chapters who absolutely Have to their pretend super special units whilst all the other Chapters - including other First Founding Chapters are simply not good enough for them. This is what has bloated the Marine range beyond belief and destroyed the chances of many armies getting updates.

NONE of the pretend snowflake units would not be present in one or more other Chapters so if you want Marines riding wolves, dogs, rabbits or whatever you should be able.
Teminators are Teminators - there is NO need for snwoflake rules for one special type of Terminator when all the others don't get them - AS stated in the relevant post - GOrgon Terminators and Firedrakes for other FIRST Founding Chapters examples. Just make a "terminator Squad" with all the options and mixed weapon load. Stop pretending that DA terminators are sooo super special.

You keep all the style but stop pandering to the entitled chapters.

I already play a Dark Angels successor chapter using the vanilla codex, in part because I actively dislike all the obnoxiously Flanderized special snowflake units and rules GW seems to think a chapter needs to not just be different-coloured Ultramarines. Does that answer the question?

As a Dark Angels player, not a chance. The Deathwing/Ravenwing flavours make the army.

 bullyboy wrote:
As a Dark Angels player, not a chance. The Deathwing/Ravenwing flavours make the army.

Back to Entitlement

You don't loose flavour - Flavour is nothing to do with rules.

- you don't loose rules - others gain them

Why exactly do a few snowflake Chapters, in this case YOUR special snowflake Chapter need these special rules and the other 990+ (including other First Founding Chapters) don't.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Implying that TWC, DC, Ravenwing can't be made into Primaris?

I'd want more context for this - is it just embiggening the old marines? Do those groups now not exist on tabletop, but do in the lore? Do units like bikers, Vanguard Veterans and Company Veterans still exist in the game? Have they been cut from the lore?

I'd be fine with the first two - the models being bigger is hardly a problem to me.
If the rules for those units didn't exist, but did in the lore, and still had a rough analogue to port them over to, I'd be fine with that. Just take the closest analogue and play count-as. Other SM factions have had to do the same when they didn't have fancy unique units (before Deathwatch came out, people just used Sternguard Veterans).

If those units didn't exist in lore any more, than I'd have a problem.

So, the TL;DR answer - no, I don't think I'd have a problem.

Never implied that, just gave a hypothetical if GW did go that way.

I'm just after a bit more context about what you mean by the OP. Are we simply talking "all units get made bigger", or "the only units that exist are generic units, like Intercessors, Tacticals, Terminators, Hellblasters, etc etc". In both of those situations, I don't mind at all. However, when we include things like "Sanguinary Guard don't exist at all in the lore" or "there's no Terminator armoured units that can represent Deathwing/Gorgons/Firedrakes, and the lore hasn't updated to move all old Terminator equivalents into a Gravis armoured frame", then those are problems.

For what it's worth, I don't mind all the old Terminator units being Primarised and instead wearing Gravis Armour in new sculpts - same as I wouldn't mind if Ravenwing were mounted on Primaris jetbikes a la the new Custodes ones, or Sanguinary Guard were melee weapon Inceptors. I also don't mind if those units got their unique entries cut, and instead just fielded as the generic equivalents, plus a unique rule that comes from a faction keyword or stratagem.

Amishprn86 wrote:I could care less if Tac marines go or stay, but removing specialist units that define the armies is another matter, WS without woves, DA without DC/Sang, DA without Terms/Bikes, thats silly, why have 1 SM army with 0 options in style? How is that entitlement?

So what were Space Wolves before they had Thunderwolf Cavalry? Because they didn't always have them.
What were Blood Angels before they got Sanguinary Guard? Because I don't think they had them either.
What are the Deathwing and Ravenwing aside from different coloured and named Terminators and Bikers? Their shtick before was that they could be taken as a whole army of them, but nowadays, that's not a factor.
Why can't Deathwing be folded into the regular Terminator entry, but Firedrakes and Gorgon Terminators must be? Why can't Raven Guard have a jump pack honour guard unit, but Blood Angels can?
Remember when Ultramarines were the only ones able to have an honour guard? Now anyone can have them (except the Victrix Guard, which I also believe should be open to everyone). Why do those Chapters get an exemption?

If they NEED those units to be distinct, and they only have those units for arbitrary reasons, why should they be more distinct from the Ultramarines than Chapters like the Mortifactors or Black Dragons are?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
As a Dark Angels player, not a chance. The Deathwing/Ravenwing flavours make the army.

Back to Entitlement

You don't loose flavour - Flavour is nothing to do with rules.

- you don't loose rules - others gain them

Why exactly do a few snowflake Chapters, in this case YOUR special snowflake Chapter need these special rules and the other 990+ (including other First Founding Chapters) don't.

Exactly. You still have the lore. You can still paint your guys in Ravenwing/Deathwing colours. However, you're just sharing those rules with other Chapters, who also have special formations just like yours.