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After realizing today that my fast attack Flesh Hound units did not count as troops for a battalion, I converted it to an outrider detachment. Not wanting to play around with points anymore and have to add/remove some models, I eventually settled on placing my Bloodthirster and two Daemon Princes in a supreme command detachment. This left me with two battalions, one outrider, and one supreme command. In the rule book, it states that it's generally good to have no more than three detachments for a 2000 point army, but that it's not specifically required. I don't think that my local GW will have much problem with it, but as I eventually want to take the army to a tournament (though if I go this year, I'll probably only be playing casual games), I've heard that some events have specific rules in regards to this. Is this an alright army organization? I really want to keep it as is, or otherwise, I will have to do even more points work and have to build even more Bloodletters, something that I am absolutely tired of doing.

Depends on your local opponents. I have never seen anybody play without the 3 det limit on 2k games. But your local meta is unknown for me.

In general what rulebook or GW or whatever says is 100% irrelevant if your local players are doing opposite. At that point it's you follow them or don't play. If your local group you play with has banned premeasuring(I know such people) then it's 100% pointless for you to say "but rulebook says you can premeasure".

What matters is how people you play with. In tournaments odds are very good "no" is the answer. Random FLGS pickup game opponents might allow if they are told in advance.

If you want to play it safe stick to 3 detachments. That's by far most universal rule. But then again not having played where you play I can't tell how it works there.

Talk to the TO.

First of all the 3 detachment limit is for *ORGANIZED PLAY* and events. It is NOT a Matched Play rule, despite everyone and their mother seemingly thinking it is and applying it to every game everywhere. You will see people that want to use it all over the place because of the effect tournaments and tournament culture has on every facet of the game.

Now you mentioned that you are going to a tournament, so the answer is most likely NO as tournaments tend to enforce the 3 detachment limit almost universally.

However, in this case, check with your TO what rules are being used.

Wayniac wrote:
First of all the 3 detachment limit is for *ORGANIZED PLAY* and events. It is NOT a Matched Play rule, despite everyone and their mother seemingly thinking it is and applying it to every game everywhere. You will see people that want to use it all over the place because of the effect tournaments and tournament culture has on every facet of the game.

Or because it adds some sense to the soup and balance toward factions. Without it game would break down even more than it already is.

tneva82 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
First of all the 3 detachment limit is for *ORGANIZED PLAY* and events. It is NOT a Matched Play rule, despite everyone and their mother seemingly thinking it is and applying it to every game everywhere. You will see people that want to use it all over the place because of the effect tournaments and tournament culture has on every facet of the game.

Or because it adds some sense to the soup and balance toward factions. Without it game would break down even more than it already is.

Sure... keep thinking that. My point remains, the rule is meant for events, not every game that happens to use points. The players decided it needs to be applied to everything.

Restricting Detachments ensures that Guard can get as many CP as they like while another army without 40pt Troop choices is hampered. Three Detachments max curbs some problems and exacerbates others. It's a suggested rule for tournaments... if players decide to apply it to every game it's up to them to work with the armies it produces, or discuss and agree a solution if it doesn't generate lists they like.

The biggest thing is it should have been restrictions baked into the army list like GW used to have, rather than detachments. I mean some choices should have been 0-1 or 1 per X or similar, not just limit the detachments you take.

What are you running that prevents you from putting all your units in two Battalions and either an Outrider or Supreme Command Detachment?

 alextroy wrote:
What are you running that prevents you from putting all your units in two Battalions and either an Outrider or Supreme Command Detachment?

Yeah, this is a good question.
Battalions require 2 HQs, but have space for 3. Outrider only requires 1 HQ, but has space for 2. Assuming you only took the min-HQs for those, you can just remove the Command detachment and put the Thirster & 2 DPs in your other 3 detachments.

If your other detachments have max HQs, please tell us what is in your list that needs so many dang HQs? I'd be genuinely curious.

In terms of legality, sure you can have 4 detachments in Matched Play. However, the vast, VAST majority of players would appreciate using the suggested Organized play standards as it seems to be the favored way to play in most areas.
It just makes games smoother when both players can start rolling dice with the assumption that both players are using the same restrictions. YMMV

-

Wayniac wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
First of all the 3 detachment limit is for *ORGANIZED PLAY* and events. It is NOT a Matched Play rule, despite everyone and their mother seemingly thinking it is and applying it to every game everywhere. You will see people that want to use it all over the place because of the effect tournaments and tournament culture has on every facet of the game.

Or because it adds some sense to the soup and balance toward factions. Without it game would break down even more than it already is.

Sure... keep thinking that. My point remains, the rule is meant for events, not every game that happens to use points. The players decided it needs to be applied to everything.

Well if you can add infinite amount of detachments that helps soup even more and cheap battallions become even better. You REALLY want to give more help to tournament dominating soups and loyal 32's?

But guess you are one who's abusing soup and loyal 32's like hell and want just exploit them even more to ensure any mono factions are soooo screwed.

tneva82 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
First of all the 3 detachment limit is for *ORGANIZED PLAY* and events. It is NOT a Matched Play rule, despite everyone and their mother seemingly thinking it is and applying it to every game everywhere. You will see people that want to use it all over the place because of the effect tournaments and tournament culture has on every facet of the game.

Or because it adds some sense to the soup and balance toward factions. Without it game would break down even more than it already is.

Sure... keep thinking that. My point remains, the rule is meant for events, not every game that happens to use points. The players decided it needs to be applied to everything.

Well if you can add infinite amount of detachments that helps soup even more and cheap battallions become even better. You REALLY want to give more help to tournament dominating soups and loyal 32's?

But guess you are one who's abusing soup and loyal 32's like hell and want just exploit them even more to ensure any mono factions are soooo screwed.

Nope, I play Death Guard and CSM Chaos. Limiting detachments doesn't fix the issue, you really need to limit souping. I've given my thoughts on that before and this isn't really the right place for it.

tneva82 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
First of all the 3 detachment limit is for *ORGANIZED PLAY* and events. It is NOT a Matched Play rule, despite everyone and their mother seemingly thinking it is and applying it to every game everywhere. You will see people that want to use it all over the place because of the effect tournaments and tournament culture has on every facet of the game.

Or because it adds some sense to the soup and balance toward factions. Without it game would break down even more than it already is.

Sure... keep thinking that. My point remains, the rule is meant for events, not every game that happens to use points. The players decided it needs to be applied to everything.

Well if you can add infinite amount of detachments that helps soup even more and cheap battallions become even better. You REALLY want to give more help to tournament dominating soups and loyal 32's?

But guess you are one who's abusing soup and loyal 32's like hell and want just exploit them even more to ensure any mono factions are soooo screwed.

But we're explicitly talking about non tournament games, hence why we're discussing constant pressure to follow Organized (tournament) Play rules and suggestions, even when playing non Organized Matched Play games.

Matched Play is not always Orgamized Play, or even points based.

At Op, To avoid criticism take them in a patrol detachment, that gives no CP:

Wayniac wrote:
First of all the 3 detachment limit is for *ORGANIZED PLAY* and events.

Even then, at least in the BRB, it is explicitly a suggestion, rather than a required limit.

Fictional wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
First of all the 3 detachment limit is for *ORGANIZED PLAY* and events.

Even then, at least in the BRB, it is explicitly a suggestion, rather than a required limit.

Indeed. In regular Matched Play there is no limit, suggested or otherwise.

And there’s always the possibility that you or your opponent wants to practice for a major tournament, and thus use their rules packet. ITC at least restricts you to 3 detachments as does NOVA, I can’t remember off the top of my head what Adepticon does. So, you might have “house rules” in addition to the rulebook/chapter approved to consider.

Yeah, this always puzzled me. I mean I can see how people wouldnt want armies with 2 or even three times copies of the good old loyal 32, then GW go and give dark eldar rules that reward taking lots of little detachments.

Personally, my rule is unless its a tournament, or my opponent has specifically requested a tournament game (for practice for example) Use as many as you want (provided they are legal of course).

Moral of the story, just ask before you play.

princeyg wrote:
Yeah, this always puzzled me. I mean I can see how people wouldnt want armies with 2 or even three times copies of the good old loyal 32, then GW go and give dark eldar rules that reward taking lots of little detachments.

Personally, my rule is unless its a tournament, or my opponent has specifically requested a tournament game (for practice for example) Use as many as you want (provided they are legal of course).

Moral of the story, just ask before you play.

Which is entirely moot, because he wants to go to a tournament and is doing himself a disservice by practicing with an illegal list.

I'm positive there is a way he can reorganize into 3 detachments regardless.

alextroy wrote:What are you running that prevents you from putting all your units in two Battalions and either an Outrider or Supreme Command Detachment?

Galef wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
What are you running that prevents you from putting all your units in two Battalions and either an Outrider or Supreme Command Detachment?

Yeah, this is a good question.
Battalions require 2 HQs, but have space for 3. Outrider only requires 1 HQ, but has space for 2. Assuming you only took the min-HQs for those, you can just remove the Command detachment and put the Thirster & 2 DPs in your other 3 detachments.

If your other detachments have max HQs, please tell us what is in your list that needs so many dang HQs? I'd be genuinely curious.

In terms of legality, sure you can have 4 detachments in Matched Play. However, the vast, VAST majority of players would appreciate using the suggested Organized play standards as it seems to be the favored way to play in most areas.
It just makes games smoother when both players can start rolling dice with the assumption that both players are using the same restrictions. YMMV

-

Here is my current list:

Warlord Battalion:
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] [Warlord] (Mark of Khorne) (Trait: Oblivious to Pain)
Blood Throne [HQ] (Artefact – Crimson Crown)
Soul Grinder [Heavy Support] (Mark of Khorne)
1 x 25 Bloodletters (with Banner of Blood/Icon and Instrument of Chaos)
1 x 14 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Karanak Outrider Detachment:
Karanak [HQ]
(Artefact – Skull Reaver)
1 x 5 Flesh Hounds
1 x 5 Flesh Hounds
1 x 5 Flesh Hounds

Skulltaker Battalion:
Skulltaker [HQ]
Herald (Bloodmaster) [HQ]
1 x 15 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Supreme Command Detachment:
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury [HQ]
Daemon Prince with Wings, Daemonic axe, and one set of talons [HQ] (Mark of Khorne)
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] (Mark of Khorne)

Total points: 1997
Command points (original): 15
Command points (remaining after artefacts and Blood Banner): 11

As for the tournament thing, this year I wouldn't be doing any of the events most likely, just milling around, taking some classes, and doing a few casual games with people, nothing much more.

Casual players: "Tournament play affects everything! 3 detachments = bogus!"

Also Casual Players: "Tournament play is the minority! Casual shall win the day!"

Hmm.

Just stick to 3 detachments. Whether or not it's a hard and fast rule it is an accepted standard.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:


Here is my current list:

Warlord Battalion:
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] [Warlord] (Mark of Khorne) (Trait: Oblivious to Pain)
Blood Throne [HQ] (Artefact – Crimson Crown)
Soul Grinder [Heavy Support] (Mark of Khorne)
1 x 25 Bloodletters (with Banner of Blood/Icon and Instrument of Chaos)
1 x 14 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Karanak Outrider Detachment:
Karanak [HQ]
(Artefact – Skull Reaver)
1 x 5 Flesh Hounds
1 x 5 Flesh Hounds
1 x 5 Flesh Hounds

Skulltaker Battalion:
Skulltaker [HQ]
Herald (Bloodmaster) [HQ]
1 x 15 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Supreme Command Detachment:
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury [HQ]
Daemon Prince with Wings, Daemonic axe, and one set of talons [HQ] (Mark of Khorne)
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] (Mark of Khorne)

Total points: 1997
Command points (original): 15
Command points (remaining after artefacts and Blood Banner): 11

As for the tournament thing, this year I wouldn't be doing any of the events most likely, just milling around, taking some classes, and doing a few casual games with people, nothing much more.

You can take 3 HQs in a battalion. Just move Karanak and hounds into the battlion above it and you're done.

 Marmatag wrote:

Just stick to 3 detachments. Whether or not it's a hard and fast rule it is an accepted standard.

No! Keep your houserus in the tournaments. DE literally has a rule that only works if they have more than three detachments.

 Crimson wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Just stick to 3 detachments. Whether or not it's a hard and fast rule it is an accepted standard.

No! Keep your houserus in the tournaments. DE literally has a rule that only works if they have more than three detachments.

"Intended for Narrative Play. Matched Play is for Tryhards and Nerds. Love, GW Design."

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:


Here is my current list:

Warlord Battalion:
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] [Warlord] (Mark of Khorne) (Trait: Oblivious to Pain)
Blood Throne [HQ] (Artefact – Crimson Crown)
Soul Grinder [Heavy Support] (Mark of Khorne)
1 x 25 Bloodletters (with Banner of Blood/Icon and Instrument of Chaos)
1 x 14 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Karanak Outrider Detachment:
Karanak [HQ]
(Artefact – Skull Reaver)
1 x 5 Flesh Hounds
1 x 5 Flesh Hounds
1 x 5 Flesh Hounds

Skulltaker Battalion:
Skulltaker [HQ]
Herald (Bloodmaster) [HQ]
1 x 15 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Supreme Command Detachment:
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury [HQ]
Daemon Prince with Wings, Daemonic axe, and one set of talons [HQ] (Mark of Khorne)
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] (Mark of Khorne)

Total points: 1997
Command points (original): 15
Command points (remaining after artefacts and Blood Banner): 11

As for the tournament thing, this year I wouldn't be doing any of the events most likely, just milling around, taking some classes, and doing a few casual games with people, nothing much more.

You can take 3 HQs in a battalion. Just move Karanak and hounds into the battlion above it and you're done.

Thanks for pointing that out. I may do that if I go to a tournament, but for now, I'll keep it the same and see if my GW allows it.

Ok, so apparently my GW only allows standard matched play rules, so I can have only three detachments. What do you think I should do, keep the Supreme detachment, or the Outrider, or remove some Bloodletters and add another winged Daemon Prince to create an Air Wing?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Ok, so apparently my GW only allows standard matched play rules, so I can have only three detachments.

That's self-contradictory...

 Crimson wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Ok, so apparently my GW only allows standard matched play rules, so I can have only three detachments.

That's self-contradictory...[/quote

I mean it goes with the suggestions in the rule book that there should be only three detachments for 2000 point armies.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Ok, so apparently my GW only allows standard matched play rules, so I can have only three detachments. What do you think I should do, keep the Supreme detachment, or the Outrider, or remove some Bloodletters and add another winged Daemon Prince to create an Air Wing?

You can just add the supreme command HQs to the other detachments you can take up to 3 HQs in battalion and up to 2 in outrider. You'd have to loose one, maybe the bloodmaster?

You can't take daemon princes in an airwing, they're not flyers.

Also you can't take skullreaver on karnak, you can only take it on a daemon pronce with axe or bloodthirster. Finally you really want to run bloodletters in units of 10, 20 or 30. Depending on how many CP you want to spemd. There's no point in running 14 or 25.

 small_gods wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Ok, so apparently my GW only allows standard matched play rules, so I can have only three detachments. What do you think I should do, keep the Supreme detachment, or the Outrider, or remove some Bloodletters and add another winged Daemon Prince to create an Air Wing?

You can just add the supreme command HQs to the other detachments you can take up to 3 HQs in battalion and up to 2 in outrider. You'd have to loose one, maybe the bloodmaster?

You can't take daemon princes in an airwing, they're not flyers.

Also you can't take skullreaver on karnak, you can only take it on a daemon pronce with axe or bloodthirster. Finally you really want to run bloodletters in units of 10, 20 or 30. Depending on how many CP you want to spemd. There's no point in running 14 or 25.

I originally had three HQs in my first list for at least two detachments so I might go back to that.

Skullreaver isn't for Karanak, it's for the DP with wings and axe. The length just made it go to another line.

Ok, I thought they were since they have the keyword 'fly.' Thanks for telling me.

I might remove a few and put in another model or two to replace it. I'm just curious, what's wrong with using not using increments of ten for BL units? I've heard that it's better to have a couple more than twenty for a blood banner unit, even if it doesn't reach 30, so as to create some cushioning in case a few in the unit die.