Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Is there a novel that that story is told in? I ama bit behind in my reading of HH (for the love of all that you consider holy, if you haven't read The Three Body Problem trilogy, you are doing yourself a disservice t sci fi.) so I probably missed it.

It is referred to as the "Night of the Wolf" and is in the nivel "Betrayer". Russ tried to teach Angron a tactical lesson in the only language he seemed to understand. In going for the kill, Angron left himself and his legion exposed. Angron refused to learn the lesson, arguing that the kill was all that mattered. He had Russ at his mercy and that meant, as far as he was concerned, he had won.

Angron later recounted this story to Lorgar who basically face-palmed at Angron's sheer bloody-mindedness.

and Lorgar proably is a better judge of those things then we are

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Angron would GnP Magnus into the floor before he could even think of thinking up a spell.

Lorgar put Angron on his ass with a word. Per Lorgar himself, Magnus is far more accomplished at both enuncia and sorcery in general.

Magnus could easily use Iron Arm and Warp Speed to beat Angron's nonexistent brains out. You know, kind of like what happens on the tabletop?

I don't game.

Vulkan.

Strongest of all Primarchs, and can regenerate any wound.

 Corennus wrote:
Vulkan.

Strongest of all Primarchs, and can regenerate any wound.

Curze killed him once with a fork.

Ferrus Manus can punch artifacts into existence. I am pretty sure he could beat any of his brothers into a servo skull.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
Vulkan.

Strongest of all Primarchs, and can regenerate any wound.

Curze killed him once with a fork.

Wasn't he imprisoned when that happened?

Is flying significant enough to matter? Because if flying can keep them out of effective range. Then the Daemon Primarchs all have an advantage. No matter how strong you are, if you can't even touch that Daemon Primarch flying 20 feet above you, then you are in a no win situation.

And yet, if you say that the environment is so restrictive that flying is a mote point, that takes away a key advantage of the Daemon Primarchs ... who can all fly.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Is flying significant enough to matter? Because if flying can keep them out of effective range. Then the Daemon Primarchs all have an advantage. No matter how strong you are, if you can't even touch that Daemon Primarch flying 20 feet above you, then you are in a no win situation.

And yet, if you say that the environment is so restrictive that flying is a mote point, that takes away a key advantage of the Daemon Primarchs ... who can all fly.

The OP states all preheresy. No deamon enhancements. The only one who would have flight is Sanguinus.

 Lance845 wrote:
Ferrus Manus can punch artifacts into existence. I am pretty sure he could beat any of his brothers into a servo skull.

and as I said before, I could wrap chains around my hands, i'd probably still get my ass handed to me by a professional fighter in my weight class.

In Wolfsbane Russ puts his money on Sanguinius and Kurze as the only two Primarchs he couldn't beat in single combat, an interesting statement considering that he'd already been beaten by The Lion and Angron and broken Magnus' back at this point.
The more interesting part is his reasoning - Kurze is a psycho and Sanguinius is a psycho with an on/off switch.
The most interesting part being Russ doesn't consider Angron a contender or a psycho...

Russ might know that both can see the future to various degrees of clarity. That's a hell of a power to have in general, let alone a one on one fight.

Anyone want to speculate the order of who goes down first in this battle royal of the demi gods?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
In Wolfsbane Russ puts his money on Sanguinius and Kurze as the only two Primarchs he couldn't beat in single combat, an interesting statement considering that he'd already been beaten by The Lion and Angron and broken Magnus' back at this point.
The more interesting part is his reasoning - Kurze is a psycho and Sanguinius is a psycho with an on/off switch.
The most interesting part being Russ doesn't consider Angron a contender or a psycho...

I think his logic was more he already beat Angron at that point in terms of killing him.

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
In Wolfsbane Russ puts his money on Sanguinius and Kurze as the only two Primarchs he couldn't beat in single combat, an interesting statement considering that he'd already been beaten by The Lion and Angron and broken Magnus' back at this point.
The more interesting part is his reasoning - Kurze is a psycho and Sanguinius is a psycho with an on/off switch.
The most interesting part being Russ doesn't consider Angron a contender or a psycho...

I think his logic was more he already beat Angron at that point in terms of killing him.

Russ is using Olympic Levels of Mental Gymnastics to say he beat Angron. The only reason he is even alive is because Angron valued being alive over killing Russ (which was uncharacteristic but perhaps the Nails were giving him a good day). Russ also applies the same Mental Gymnastics to the Lion fight because he claims he was sucker punched after deciding they shouldn't fight anymore.

I miss when the Space Wolves were Space Vikings and not Space Massive Hypocritical Tools.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
In Wolfsbane Russ puts his money on Sanguinius and Kurze as the only two Primarchs he couldn't beat in single combat, an interesting statement considering that he'd already been beaten by The Lion and Angron and broken Magnus' back at this point.
The more interesting part is his reasoning - Kurze is a psycho and Sanguinius is a psycho with an on/off switch.
The most interesting part being Russ doesn't consider Angron a contender or a psycho...

I think his logic was more he already beat Angron at that point in terms of killing him.

Russ is using Olympic Levels of Mental Gymnastics to say he beat Angron. The only reason he is even alive is because Angron valued being alive over killing Russ (which was uncharacteristic but perhaps the Nails were giving him a good day). Russ also applies the same Mental Gymnastics to the Lion fight because he claims he was sucker punched after deciding they shouldn't fight anymore.

I miss when the Space Wolves were Space Vikings and not Space Massive Hypocritical Tools.

If your objective is to kill someone no matter what and you kill them then that's a win.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
In Wolfsbane Russ puts his money on Sanguinius and Kurze as the only two Primarchs he couldn't beat in single combat, an interesting statement considering that he'd already been beaten by The Lion and Angron and broken Magnus' back at this point.
The more interesting part is his reasoning - Kurze is a psycho and Sanguinius is a psycho with an on/off switch.
The most interesting part being Russ doesn't consider Angron a contender or a psycho...

I think his logic was more he already beat Angron at that point in terms of killing him.

Russ is using Olympic Levels of Mental Gymnastics to say he beat Angron. The only reason he is even alive is because Angron valued being alive over killing Russ (which was uncharacteristic but perhaps the Nails were giving him a good day). Russ also applies the same Mental Gymnastics to the Lion fight because he claims he was sucker punched after deciding they shouldn't fight anymore.

I miss when the Space Wolves were Space Vikings and not Space Massive Hypocritical Tools.

When did Russ claim he had beaten the Lion? In Leman Russ he tells a Blood Claw that the Lion beat him bloody and could do it again andin Wolfsbane he points out the Primarchs who he couldn’t beat and I found it interesting that neither Lion nor Angron make the cut, neither is actually claiming he won the fight with the Lion. Is there another reference?

angron vs russ in a bare knuckle exhibition bout would be the best I think.

I would say Leman Russ, people from Fenris tend to be brutal fighters, and I think that would apply to the wolven Primarch himself. The Emperor didn't make him his executioner without reason.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
In Wolfsbane Russ puts his money on Sanguinius and Kurze as the only two Primarchs he couldn't beat in single combat, an interesting statement considering that he'd already been beaten by The Lion and Angron and broken Magnus' back at this point.
The more interesting part is his reasoning - Kurze is a psycho and Sanguinius is a psycho with an on/off switch.
The most interesting part being Russ doesn't consider Angron a contender or a psycho...

I think his logic was more he already beat Angron at that point in terms of killing him.

Russ is using Olympic Levels of Mental Gymnastics to say he beat Angron. The only reason he is even alive is because Angron valued being alive over killing Russ (which was uncharacteristic but perhaps the Nails were giving him a good day). Russ also applies the same Mental Gymnastics to the Lion fight because he claims he was sucker punched after deciding they shouldn't fight anymore.

I miss when the Space Wolves were Space Vikings and not Space Massive Hypocritical Tools.

When did Russ claim he had beaten the Lion? In Leman Russ he tells a Blood Claw that the Lion beat him bloody and could do it again andin Wolfsbane he points out the Primarchs who he couldn’t beat and I found it interesting that neither Lion nor Angron make the cut, neither is actually claiming he won the fight with the Lion. Is there another reference?

Russ never claimed he ahd beat them, he simply thought he could take them now, in the case of the Lion he likely felt he had the Lion's measure now and could beat him next fight (weather thats true or just russ being an idiot who can tell)

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Russ is using Olympic Levels of Mental Gymnastics to say he beat Angron....

Russ is pretty good at using olympic levels of mental gymnastics for pretty much everything he does. Especially when he revealed to Sanguinius, Khan, and Dorn that he had been using rune priests ever since Nikaea, and this was after he had taken out Prospero. Dorn promptly calls Russ out on his hypocrisy, and Russ' only response was that Nikaea somehow didn't apply to him because his psykers were different or something. Dorn turns to Sanguinius and Khan for backup and they just say they thought that the Emperor made the wrong call at Nikaea anyway, and that censuring Russ at that moment (heresy in full swing) would be counterproductive.

Still not sure how Russ managed to emerge from that whole debacle as the "good guy", and not executed for treason. Huge pet peeve of mine, but I realize this isn't the place to rehash that discussion.

I do acknowledge that Russ technically beat Magnus in their duel, but only because Russ had unique abilities that were pretty much tailor made to fight someone like Magnus, and Magnus was pretty much singlehandedly holding back the entire Space Wolf legion + Sisters of silence, while simultaneously channeling a spell to teleport the 1000 sons across the galaxy (stated in universe to be the most powerful teleportation spell ever uttered by a living being), and Russ still got smacked around pretty badly by Magnus anyway.

Some people call me a Magnus fanboy, but I just think I'm being realistic about the fighting abilities of all of the Primarchs. Reality bending magics beat mundane muscle any day.

w1zard wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Russ is using Olympic Levels of Mental Gymnastics to say he beat Angron....

Russ is pretty good at using olympic levels of mental gymnastics for pretty much everything he does. Especially when he revealed to Sanguinius, Khan, and Dorn that he had been using rune priests ever since Nikaea, and this was after he had taken out Prospero. Dorn promptly calls Russ out on his hypocrisy, and Russ' only response was that Nikaea somehow didn't apply to him because his psykers were different or something. Dorn turns to Sanguinius and Khan for backup and they just say they thought that the Emperor made the wrong call at Nikaea anyway, and that censuring Russ at that moment (heresy in full swing) would be counterproductive.

Still not sure how Russ managed to emerge from that whole debacle as the "good guy", and not executed for treason. Huge pet peeve of mine, but I realize this isn't the place to rehash that discussion.

I do acknowledge that Russ technically beat Magnus in their duel, but only because Russ had unique abilities that were pretty much tailor made to fight someone like Magnus, and Magnus was pretty much singlehandedly holding back the entire Space Wolf legion + Sisters of silence, while simultaneously channeling a spell to teleport the 1000 sons across the galaxy (stated in universe to be the most powerful teleportation spell ever uttered by a living being), and Russ still got smacked around pretty badly by Magnus anyway.

Some people call me a Magnus fanboy, but I just think I'm being realistic about the fighting abilities of all of the Primarchs. Reality bending magics beat mundane muscle any day.

No you're basically right. We see how Roboute Guilliman fares against a considerably weaker sorcerer in the form of Kor Phaeron.

Not well.

And Lorgar of course easily put Angron on his ass.

And Malcador, who is canonically inferior to Magnus, could knock Angron out with a touch and, get this, literally strangled Horus telekinetically and had him at his mercy, to the part where the Khan could only impotently beg Malcador to stop.

In terms of physical abilities, the Primarchs vary, but only in the same way that real life athletes vary. Vulkan is physically stronger than Fulgrim, but only the same way Mark Henry is stronger than John Cena. Vulkan is stronger than Fulgrim, but not to the point where it's like a battle between a human and a superhuman.

That is how a fight between Magnus and any brother sans Russ or one of the other notably psychic Primarchs would go. Magnus, as we have seen, can literally empower his punches to shatter Leman Russ' armour and puncture one of his hearts. He would maim any of his brothers simply through amplifying his physical power alone, much less more impressive displays of psychic power.

Barring psychic clownery though, one Primarch being slept on is Konrad Curze, who frankly has some of the best brawling feats of any Primarch. Remember, this is a fist fight, no weapons. Leman Russ is a superb warrior, but barehanded he fought a stalemate with the Lion. By comparison, even after literally stabbing him with a cheap shot, when Curze managed to force their duel into a barehanded brawl he beat the gak out of the Lion. He also nearly killed Dorn with his bare hands once.

When it comes to down and dirty gutter fighting Curze is tough to beat.

 Jazzylee wrote:
I would say Leman Russ, people from Fenris tend to be brutal fighters, and I think that would apply to the wolven Primarch himself. The Emperor didn't make him his executioner without reason.

I'd question that.
The Wolves were the executioners before Russ took leadership of them.
Since the Emperor has never stated that Russ is his Executioner to the readers and the other Primarchs kind of snort at the idea I'm beginning to wonder if he didn’t just inherit the name along with the the VI Legion and kind of take their title to heart.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Well Fulgrim actually beat Ferrus - and I’m not talking about Isstvan but rather prior to that on Ferrus’s ship. Ferrus only lived then because Fulgrim spared him because of sentimentality.

As for Russ - he wounded post-Molech-Chaos-powered Horus.
Edit - And Russ was built to kill other Primarch.

Angron is angry and brutal but not actually a skillful duelist.

First off Fulgrim cheap shotted Ferrus and Fulgrim had a hammer.

Ferrus would obliterate Fulgrim in a straight MMA style fight.

I see a lot of votes for Angron but I think he is to angry to win this contest. He loses discipline and would be outsmarted by several of his brothers. Vulkan is a beast when he's angry and he is one of the largest brothers physically. He would be tough. Russ is the Primarch killer but he knows there were a few he could not beat.

Given the conditions of this fight, Ferrus would very likely win. I mean he has metal arms to start with and was the best general of them all. I know this is a hand to hand brawl but Ferrus knew what he was and embraced it. He was a living weapon. The only reason he was defeated by Fulgrim was because Pretty Boy let the Daemon take over his body.

 SickSix wrote:
...Given the conditions of this fight, Ferrus would very likely win...

I know the dude that has metal hands seems like a good bet in a fist fight, but being one of only three primarchs killed by another primarch makes him a pretty bad choice. If he couldn't win against daemon Fulgrim he wouldn't stand a chance against say... Angron, Russ, Lion El'Jonson, or Curze in CQC. Perturabo was even able to go toe to toe with daemon Fulgrim without getting his head cut off, and Perturabo isn't even known for his dueling prowess.

Yeah everyone's banging on about his metal hands but they wouldn't mean jack